Brits driving completely illigal cars

[Will]

If you do what DVLA tells you to do, and get an export certificate for the car when you leave UK (as you are legally obliged to tell DVLA where the vehicle is normally kept - and DVLA will not accept a non-UK address), then the question of road tax does not arise, because you cannot tax a vehicle on an export certificate, and you will automatically get a refund of tax already paid.

This assumes that you re-register the vehicle in its new home country on arrival, as DVLA recommends. As we all know this is not always a quick process in France, and this is why you get a period of leeway from French insurers.

The problem then arises as to what happens if you want to take the vehicle back to UK. Technically you are then illegal, by using an untaxed vehicle on UK plates on UK roads. When we were in this situation a UK policeman happily accepted our explanation (no doubt helped by the fact that the vehicle was LHD, despite being on UK plates, and displayed a French insurance sticker in the windscreen). But when I mentioned this on the forum a long time ago a former policeman got quite uptight and said that he would have thrown the book at anybody in this situation - so do be careful. 

It seems therefore that until French re-registration is complete you cannot be 100% legal as far as UK is concerned - a bit of a Catch 22 situation. Though as far as most people are concerned the offence of not notifying DVLA of a change of address doesn't count for anything.

Ignorance of the law is never a valid defence, though making honest and reasonable attempts to comply will usually be favourably regarded (unless you have the misfortune to meet a pedantic policeman). 

[Athene]

[quote]If you do what DVLA tells you to do, and get an export certificate for the car when you leave UK (as you are legally obliged to tell DVLA where the vehicle is normally kept - and DVLA will not accept ...[/quote]

Well having read all of this, I have gone right off the idea of taking our little runabout to live in France.

 I think I will wait until we are in France permanently and then look for a little French car that will do this job for us. From what I can see around in France, the prices of second hand cars seem to be higher than in the UK. Am I right?

[jrhartley]

My impression is that second hand car prices are about 20% higher in France than in the UK on a L4L basis.  I don't know why this is - but I suppose its the same way that when you go to Brocantes they are trying to sell stuff that most people in the UK would throw away or incinerate. 

[Athene]

[quote]My impression is that second hand car prices are about 20% higher in France than in the UK on a L4L basis. I don't know why this is - but I suppose its the same way that when you go to Brocantes they...[/quote]

Yes I know what you mean! Some of the stuff would not get a place in a self respecting jumble sale in the UK! LOL! However I have a friend who knows what she is looking for and can make a killing on what she collects if she sells it on! I just go to the brocantes with my French neighbour to look and learn what some of the old kitchen implements were used for. I find this very interesting but I would not be buying any of them!

[clareS]

We have come to France with our British car (staying for 12-18 months) and were under the impression (DVLA website advice!) that we could continue registering it in the UK and could retax it from abroad. We now find we can't retax it as we have French insurance (we couldn't get insurance in UK to drive in France for more than 3 weeks), so it looks as it we have to get it immatriculated here (which looks tricky) then God knows what when we go back. We're going back to UK for Christmas in the car, so will probably be illegal then as I don't suppose the immatriculation will be done by then.

Does anyone know of any better alternatives (besides dump the car in the driveway and buy a French one?)

Panic- strickenlyly:

[Jc]

You may well have a certificate(they are happy to take your money)but read your policy.You are required to maintain your vehicle in a safe and legal(repeat legal)condition.

[juxtapose]

[quote]Have you thought that perhaps the gendarmes don't stop them because they can't speak English? Think how stupid the flic would look! Here it is white vans. Mostly H reg for some reason If the car ...[/quote]

Maybe my topic, taken to court could help you

[clareS]

I still haven't found anything to indicate that we are not in a legal position. We had no idea we wouldn't be able to renew our tax (the DVLA web site said that you can renew your tax from abroad and that you can keep your registration in UK for up to 12 months - no mention of the fact that you can't renew your tax with a French insurance policy), we still have our house in UK, so the car is registered under that address (I haven't read anything anywhere to indicate there is a problem with this either). If we stay longer we will get rid of the UK car and buy a French one, so we don't really want to go through all the hassle of reregistering - by the time all the paperwork is done we'll probably want to sell it anyway, but we do want to be legal when we go back to the UK in four weeks!

We have come to the conclusion we will have to try again to get UK based insurance to tide us over. Anybody else done this? Sounds as if it will cost a fortune!

 

[jrhartley]

Your French insurance should cover you for 30 days in the UK.

If I were you, I'd buy a tax disc as soon as I was back in the UK and then send it back for a refund in the meantime.  I take it you registered a SORN (Statutory Off The Road) notification when you left for France?  I don't think you'll have any problems then.  When you leave the UK, you'll have to do another SORN.  Its annoying, but I think that might be the simplest solution.  The UK should introduce toll roads and scrap the RFT asap.  Pay for what you use, that's how it should be!

 

 

[Will]

The SORN is only for vehicles not used on the public road, anywhere. Declaring SORN and then using the vehicle in France is likely to be looked upon as fraudulent, i.e. worse than failure to notify export (which has been the subject of recent legal action - see 'taken to court' topic.

[Will]

Just to clarify, as the above post could be misinterpreted, the SORN is only for vehicles not used on the public road, anywhere. Declaring SORN and then using the vehicle in France is likely to be looked upon as fraudulent, i.e. worse than failure to notify export (which itself has been the subject of recent legal action - see 'taken to court' topic).

[jrhartley]

RE: Sorn - are you sure about this?  When I spoke to the DVLA they advised me that the "R" in the SORN referred soley to British Roads (as this was corresponding to the tax).  Clearly if you drive on a private road only in the UK, you can operate with a SORN, and don't need to pay road tax so I fail to see why a SORN shouldn't apply in Europe.   The SORN has nothing to do with the car not being driven, only that it is not being driven on UK public roads.

In fact, thelady at the DVLA advised me to do a SORN whilst they sorted out the******up over the export certificate.

 

[clareS]

We seem to have sorted it out now by getting a very expensive 'overseas' insurance from a UK insurer, which will enable us to renew our UK tax before it runs out at the end of this month. At least that way we will have time to consider what we are doing long term, we will probably buy a French car if we are staying beyond a year and sell this one, but at least until then we are in a legal position. As it is registered at our UK address we shouldn't have any problems with not registering in France - we are officially still resident in UK All very complicated, and someone will probably give me another reason why we are actually still illegal (no, please don't)!

[Will]

Glad you've got it sorted Claire.

This is from the DVLA website and may help some people:

"What if my vehicle licence is due to expire while I am abroad?

"If you are going to be abroad when your tax disc is due to expire you may apply to relicense it up to 2 calendar months in advance. Advance applications can be taken or posted to a Main Vehicle Licence issuing Post Office® branch or DVLA Local Office. Applications must be made on a vehicle licence application form (V10). If you are making a postal application you must also submit a letter explaining why you are applying to relicense your vehicle so far in advance. If you give an address abroad the new tax disc can be sent to you there. If you are abroad but the vehicle is off the road in the UK, you may also declare SORN to DVLA at that time. If a vehicle is abroad when the licence expires but is still registered in the UK you must relicense your vehicle. If you are no longer registered in the UK you must comply with the licensing regulations of the country concerned. For further information please refer to "Unlicensed Vehicles and Continuous Registration".

"Remember to speak to your insurer to check that you are properly covered for the use of your vehicle. You will also need to fix a GB sticker to the back of the vehicle. If the vehicle is hired or leased, you should take form VE103 - 'Vehicle on Hire' Certificate with you. You can get this certificate from one of the motoring organisations, who will need a letter of authority from the keeper of the vehicle."

DVLA seems to be giving conflicting information. When I have discussed this the advisor was clear that an export certificate was the only option. All DLVA SORN literature refers to 'public' roads rather than 'UK' roads.

[jrhartley]

Who knows?  Maybe the told me to complete a SORN as it had taken them over 3 months to process an Export Certificate request, and even after that, they sent me someone else's certificate.  So maybe this was an "elastoplast" solution from the DVLA to deal with their mistake?  It worked though, it got me off the DVLA records and so I don't think there's any chance of the DVLA taking me to court for UK RFT.  

What is clear from all this discussion is that there needs to be much more co-ordination on these matters, Europe-wide.  I find it amazing the haste to rush through things like the euro and weights and measures legislation, when the day to day matters like insurance, police & legislation remain so widely different between EU member states.

[BJSLIV]

Will the Conq's extract from the DVLA makes  the UK position quite clear. If you take it abroad and want to keep a UK plate then the tax is payable. If you leave the car in the uK locked in a garage then you declare it SORN . A car usrd on a private estate, has never needed to be taxed, but like a builders dumper truck if it ventures onto the highway it needs to be registered. If you declare a vehicle as SORN and take it abroad it would be illegal to venture outside the port until had been taxed.

However the gaps are:

If a car is SORN but keeps UK plates there appear to be few checks in France. It will look like a foreign car and many people get away with it.

There are a lot of lucky gamblers about and people do get away with it. I know I wouldn't last five minutes without being caught.

 

[opas]

Yipeee, The car has passed c.t,got cert of conformity,done the tax bit at the hotel d`impots,sat in the prefecture for less than an hour,visited garage twice for plaques and went to the key cutting man `cos garage hadn`t the relevent no`s/lettres, fixed the latter (plaques not the garage) to the car et voila    oh and ripped the tax disc holder off the windscreen!

[Athene]

[quote]Yipeee, The car has passed c.t,got cert of conformity,done the tax bit at the hotel d`impots,sat in the prefecture for less than an hour,visited garage twice for plaques and went to the key cutting ma...[/quote]

You mad abandonned crazy fool!