Buying a flat in copropriété

[NormanH]

My turn to ask for advice[:)]

I am thinking of buying a small flat which suits my needs very well, but it is in a copropriété and all my previous properties have been houses where I was sole owner.

I know that there can be problems with copropriétés, and so I have done some reading on the service public site and on Anil.  I also saw on France 2 news last night that 15% of copropriétés in France have serious financial difficulties, although those seemed to be more large affairs built in the 60s etc.

So my question is to any of  you who might have  been part of such a system. What has been your experience and what should I look out for/be beware of?

[tinabee]

I do not live in a property in a co-prop but do have an investment property in one. The only thing I would suggest is to keep on top of them. We made the mistake in assuming that they were acting in our best interests, and that other French owners would be keeping up-to-date with budgets, spending, meetings and decisions, etc. If I am honest, it was easier to assume someone else was doing the work but we have now realised that in a co-prop the ostrich mentality leaves problems unsolved and allows them to grow. I am now learning a lot about co-prop rules, regulations, budgeting, meetings, and a lot of other things I have absolutely no interest in. But, that is the price one has to pay to avoid nasty surprises.

Good luck - and as with anything in France, research, research, research and go in with your eyes open.

[Lehaut]

We too have an investment flat, coproprietés/ professional syndic. After 10 years "we" are on our third syndic. One flat owner has not paid anything towards the running of his flat for at least that, they (the third syndic now) are still taking ongoing legal action to recover over 18,000+ euros owed to us and the syndic!

The other 50 flat owners (only half ever turn up for the meetings) will not vote for a sinking fund, getting the large cost new works done has never happened (we plus one active owner were one of the few who tried to push it through). Some people bought their flats through a Notaire with the upstairs drying areas already converted into holiday studios over 10 years ago. Totally illegal, still not resolved. The accounts produced are understandable and allow us to bill our tenant in accordance with the strict French laws. Beware lifts, they are very expensive as they have to be constantly updated to keep up with the law. If there are students in the building, avoid it! I am sure if we were living there, things like the gardening etc we could organise in house (if you have lived in France long enough, you will know they don't organise themselves). You pay the costs of the syndic depending on your percentage ownership of the whole building, though they have been known to get it wrong when costing works. We pay ours 4 times a year for the published yearly running costs, then as required for emergency work (100,000 to renew the central heating system for example!!!) You should be made aware by the current syndic of any outstanding defects/major work before you buy the flat.

Hope this helps. I know there are also the owners who can run their own syndics, but the rules are about the same for meetings, accounts etc. If you want the meetings to not go on for hours and you want a decision, organise them to start before the evening meal, don't offer drink or food, lock the doors and take a whip!

[Sunshine_2]

I used to own and live in a flat which was one of a block of 4. We found that the owner/occupiers of the 2 largest flats permanently dictated what was going to happen and regularly made decisions without contacting us and the other owner. The syndic was useless as he wanted an easy life so he just agreed with whatever they said. Th experience prompted us to build our own house so some good came of it but I would not purchase such a property again in France.

Be careful if it is a small block.

[nomoss]

We owned an apartment in a copropriété in Le Barcarés for several years. This was a tourist development from the early 70's, and most of the owners used them for holidays only, although there were a few full-time residents.

We knew nothing about copropriétés before we purchased. We never attended any AGMs or other meetings, as they were usually in the winter, and we lived some distance away, but we always gave our mandate to someone we trusted to vote for us. I studied all the minutes and reports from the AGM and the Syndic, and noticed there were some long standing debts run up by owners, and that certain people were always very slow to pay their dues.

I mentioned these debts to some of the owners I came to meet, who were also concerned. It turned out that the Syndic (administrating entity)  had done no more than repeatedly send reminders to the offending owners, and had done nothing more for some years.

Eventually a group of newer owners managed to replace the Syndic with another company, although this was opposed by older residents for whatever reason. The new Syndic took legal action and recovered the debts and legal fees by forcing the sale of a couple of apartments, but this took a long time, and as they could only go back on debts for five years or so, the shortfall had to be met by the remaining owners to get the accounts back into credit.

The new admin., as voted by the owners, started sending legal documents advising legal action would be taken to owners for late payments, and exercised far better control all around.

The other copropriétés in the same development continued to use the same company as admin. Just habit, I guess, and it can be difficult to get enough votes for a motion when few people attend AGMs and either don't bother at all, or give their mandate to someone who persuades them without knowing what they will vote for. 

We had similar problems, caused by the ostrich mentality mentioned by tinabee, with an apartment in Spain.

So I would suggest you find out who are the administrators of the copropriété, study all the terms of the copropriété and the contract with the admin., and ask the seller to show you the latest couple of  years' minutes and reports, as these may only be availble to actual owners.

You also need to know about any works projects planned for the property, the cost of any of these, how they are to be financed, and whether your vendor has his payments up to date, both for regular expenditure and any additional projects.

In the year or so before we sold the Spanish apartment a group of owners managed to vote in a motion to get quotes to redecorate the outside of the building and replace the asbestos drains running down the outside.

The quotatuion recommended didn't sound too unreasonable, so we voted for it, and duly paid in our share of the estimate.

Subsequently it transpired that current regulations meant that any new pipes had to be inside the walls, (i.e. within some apartments, as the walls were not that thick), and also that rainwater drainage from the flat roof had to be separated form the drain effluent from the apartments.

This increased the estimates enormously, and we feared we wouldn't be able to sell the apartment with such a big charge hanging over it, but fortunately we got it voted down, and our contributions returned before we sold.

 

[tinabee]

This is all really helpful information for me, thanks everyone for posting.

[Gardengirl]

We've owned an apartment in France

for 6 years from new, bought off plan 7 years ago, and spend about 6 months there each year. The original syndic,

appointed by the building company, had the company's interests at heart for the

2 years we were with them, which meant that faults which could have been down

to them to rectify in the first year were done later - with the owners paying the bills. 

So a good syndic would be an important 'requirement'.

Our current syndic seemed miles better than the first one, but changes in

ownership and staff have made it less good. However quite a few owners in our

building also have apartments elsewhere, in Paris, Geneva etc, and say that

this syndic is still much better than others they use or have used in the past

and advise against thinking of changing again; as several of them are good

friends, we believe them. The syndic often needs pushing to do what is required of

them. 

The second wish would be for a good conseil syndical. As

this was our first purchase in France,

we knew nothing about the system at all apart from what we gleaned from books/internet.

Our first CS, in place for 2 years, was very poor; little was done apart from cutting

back trees which were a nuisance at the pool, during which some of the CS had

some trees removed which shaded their balconies a little. The second CS, also in place

for 2 years, was better to start with, but when relations between members of the

CS broke down things were difficult and the cleanliness of the building also deteriorated

badly. The current CS is on it's second year, and has accomplished a lot of

what was much needed around the building. I'm a member of this CS and I'm

pleased to say that the building is now very clean and communication with

owners is now mostly very effective. 

The CS has regular meetings, although a lot of work is done

by email, but the only meeting of owners is the AGM.

Up until this CS was voted in, AGMs had been extremely well-attended noisy uproars,

as there had been many complaints. Attendance at our last AGM

was poor; very few owners turned up as they were fairly well satisfied with

what was being done by the CS, so they were happy to send proxy votes. Our

AGMs are usually held in the mairie and have to be paid for; there is

usually another meeting following afterwards, so there is a deadline which has

helped but hasn't necessarily been totally respected. 

Owners are of various nationalities; those anglophones who

have been present for AGMs have usually got together over aperos a day or so beforehand

to discuss the agenda. As already mentioned, votes are based on the size of

apartments and garages, and it's been useful to have some idea of how

anglophone votes will fall as well as being useful for distributing proxy votes.

I've also usually been given several proxy votes by French neighbours over the years too -

things don't necessarily split on national lines! 

Each member of the CS has particular responsibilities although

we all do whatever is needed; I'm often the only member of the CS present, so

have to sort out whatever arises - my French vocabulary has had a big boost! 

We pay for the running costs quarterly, plus

emergency

work; the cost of replacement pumps for the swimming pool has been high, and we've

paid

out a lot this current year for tree work due to storms.There haven't

been non-payments by owners other than some payments occasionally being

late. 

Lehaut's warning to beware of lifts is interesting, as we

have a lift and it's not something I'd thought about much up to now. Friends in

other apartment blocks locally which are older than ours have never mentioned

great expense for their lifts, but that's another good reason for pushing for a

sinking fund - the roof would be another concern. We have 52 apartments in the

building, and we as owners would like to have a sinking fund in place but this

hasn't happened yet - most owners are content just to have the 10-year

insurance in place, but time is rushing by very quickly. 

Another big thing of course is neighbours; we've

been very

lucky on the whole, although one owner in particular has caused problem

for

others.There were a few problems with noise in the first couple of

years, but that no longer happens; our rules state that there should be

no noise between 22h and 7h, and a reminder is usually all that is

needed.

If the apartment block is already in existence, I would ensure that a copy of the last couple of years' AGM agendas and reports are obtained, and if you can meet any current owners it could be useful. Good luck, Norman.

[NormanH]

Thank you everyone for the long detailed and very helpful replies.

I had read http://vosdroits.service-public.fr/particuliers/N357.xhtml  which explains the theory perfectly, but nothing can replace experience the reality on the ground.

This is one of 6 "converted' in what was originally a large house.

There is a communal garden space but all has been rather neglected as the old lady who owned the whole thing refused sales outside the family.

She has just died at 102, and  her inheritors are selling off the flats.

So far one has been bought, and the others are empty so it is a bit of a blank canvas.

The purchase price is extremely low which is what attracts me, apart from the fact there is everything I need on the one level of the ground floor, but I  am a bit afraid of being hit by sudden large bills that I am forced to meet and for things which I might just have let slip in my own place..

I wrote this to the agent:

Avant de signer un compromis je vais avoir besoin de:

Le Règlement de copropriété et état descriptif de division

Les relevés de charges des deux dernières années

Les derniers procès-verbaux d'assemblée générale (au moins les trois derniers)

Un plan de l'appartement

Je comprends bien qu'il peut y avoir des difficultés vu que tous les
appartements sont à vendre mais j'ai un soucis sur les charges
générales en ce qui concerne la conservation, l'entretien,
l'administration des parties communes : l'éclairage des parties
communes, l'accès à l'immeuble (interphone, digicode), le nettoyage de
l'immeuble.

J'ai remarqué qu'il y a pas mal à choses à faire dans ces domaines ce
qui est normal, mais je ne veux pas me retrouver avec des grosses
factures que je suis obligées à payer en même temps que je rembourse
un crédit et retape ma partie privée

If anyone can think of anything else I should ask for (I will want to see the carnet d'entretien )

please say so

.Once again thank you for the degree of effort that has ben put into your replies

[woolybanana]

rewirng, replumbing, heating system replacement, roof, windows, all these and more may need looking at , Norman, so beware.

[idun]

Yes, beware NH.

 I must say that the reports on french news during the past week have been rather disturbing.

[nomoss]

Now that you have mentioned that it is an old building, I think WB's advice is very relevant.

If the units are going for bargain prices the future owners may not be in a position to spend hunks of money on the building - which might not necessarily be a disadvantage, but you don't want it all to slide too down-market[:(]

 

 

[woolybanana]

norman, buy a new hammock and stay in the barrel, so much more civilized.

[NormanH]

[quote user="nomoss"]

Now that you have mentioned that it is an old building, I think WB's advice is very relevant.

If the units are going for bargain prices the future owners may not be in a position to spend hunks of money on the building - which might not necessarily be a disadvantage, but you don't want it all to slide too down-market[:(]

 

 

[/quote]

Further down market I could not go[:(]

Thanks for everyone's concern...[B]

[Pickles]

Sorry for being late to the party (thanks "misericable"!)

Now that you've given some of the history of the property, alarm bells start ringing.

Firstly, re copropriétés: there are good syndics and bad ones. If you find a good one, have them cloned. The problem is that being a syndic is now very much a thankless task, and complying with the various layers of red tape has become increasingly expensive. Thus, immos which had a small-scale syndic operation are finding it unviable and getting out to concentrate on sales and lettings and whereas previously people who wanted to retire from the business and sell up could find buyers, now you will find that increasingly the syndics are being bought up by national conglomerates, eg Foncia. Foncia bought up the syndic businesses that were running two copropriétés that affected us. In each case the effect was very much for the worse. In both cases, Foncia were kicked out, but not before causing both copropriétés BIG problems that are taking a long time to sort out. The accounts were in a complete mess, and major issues were not progressed (such that one copropriété faces major legal difficulties with the local authorities for failure to bring certain feature up to the required standard despite being told to do the work 4 years ago). The person actually managing the residence (of 700 flats) changed 4 times due to stress-related illnesses: it turned out that this person was supposed to be managing 17 other copros. The large syndics tout themselves as having all the necessary specialist skills and knowledge in-house: this is just NOT the case.

I second the comments made above by various people re syndics and conseil syndicaux ... and this is where your problems begin.

Given the history, (large old house "converted" into flats, held within family etc) there really is not likely to be much of an effective conseil syndical in evidence. You are therefore probably starting from scratch. The next issue is under what conditions was the original conversion into flats carried out? My suspicion, given the history, would be that the work was not done to the standards required at the time, much less the standards required now. If it were, I would have expected that it would have been done with the financial benefits of the loi Malraux for the then owner.

Next, my suspicion would be that after the sale, you will find, bit-by-bit, that various aspects of the conversion need to be redone (with a mise en demeure from the local authorities hanging over you) at your expense: fire breaks and equipment would be a first guess, plus wiring (eg was the cabling sufficient for the needs of the various apartments, was it installed such that there is proper separation of the supplies for each apartment), perhaps water distribution (see the electrical comment) and soil pipes. There may even be issues with the structure. It would need to be extremely cheap and even then you might find that you cannot afford the sums required to bring it up to standard. And nothing in the paperwork is really going to tell you that beforehand. It's a bit like buying a thirty-year-old Jaguar: the price may be cheap but the running costs can be phenomenal, far outstripping the purchase price.

Good luck.

[NormanH]

Thanks Pickles. That is rather depressing as good advice can sometimes be, but extremely informative.

[victor]

Norman,

We bought an apartment in a co-propertie that had two other owners. The first floor was just a garage and then the second floor was owned by the syndic benevole. We went into this blind.

At a minimum I would pay an expert to go over the entire building before buying. That should give you some idea of future problems. I finally had to hire an attorney to get her removed as she would not allow us to put in a prise de terre.

Also, if you plan to have any work done, have a huisier inspect any apartments that might be affected by any work you may need to undertake.

If we were ever to own another apartment, I would choose one with around 8 appartments of mostly professional people who lived there full time.

All the advice given above is super. Wish I had

had the advantage of their thoughts.