Ron Avery Posted June 4, 2006 Share Posted June 4, 2006 As the title says, I know a guy who has an old M eg car here with the out of date tax disc, nothing else in the front window and a big GB plate on the back presumably to try and kid the French neighbours he is still on his holidays, but the fact is the car has not been taxed in the UK since November 2005. He claims that it has an MOT and it is insured with ZURICH on European cover from a relative's address in the UK at which the car is SORN'd. So if his wife who uses it daily has a prang in France is that car insured or not? Would the DVLA find out from the insurance company that it was being used or would they bother to check?, Is there a real risk of a claim being denied if they find out they live in France 90% of the time and not in the UK!! Most importantly, would you travel in that car?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
opas Posted June 4, 2006 Share Posted June 4, 2006 Thats a very interesting question Ron. I will also be watching to see the replies!Unfortunatly the only bit I can answer is That No I would not travel in a car that I knew under the terms you describe, I would also let him know he was doing someithing illegal ie the Sorned bit. I have an English holiday home owner neighbour who is talking of bringing his old car over to save keep hiring one , when I commented on the yearly MOT his comment was he wouldn`t need one.....this from a quite high up Police officer! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Val_2 Posted June 4, 2006 Share Posted June 4, 2006 They keep advertising the fact on the Uk TV here that all vehicles registered to the DVLA are computerised with all the details of insurers and MOT dates and they can find out instantly who is not bothering to keep their vehicle legal. Surely they will pursue those coming to France as well or if there is an accident here in France, surely the gendarmes will check with the UK side of the paperwork as well. I really don't understand these folks who break the law as the penalties here are a lot more severe in terms of punishment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urko Posted June 4, 2006 Share Posted June 4, 2006 I used to work in Insurance (I wish the court to take several other offences into consideration). I suspect the answer would depend upon the type of accident. Insurers (at least under UK law) are entitled to know about anything that (broadly speaking) that might affect their attitude to the risk they are taking on - the 90% in France would probably fall into this category. That said, if the accident invloved death or injury to others, the insurer would probably pay that part of any claim to avoid adverse publicity and possible pressure from government(s). I think there would be very little chance of getting any of his/her own damage paid for.Would I ride in the car? Depends. Being a passenger in car driven by someone else doesn't miraculously entitle one to automatic compensation from an insurance company if the car crashes in most cases so I wouldn't really be losing anything unless I knew the driver was especially prone to recklessness or negligence (in which case.....I feel a catch 22 moment coming on) . The question of whether I'd travel with someone I knew was cutting these kinds of corners is different - depends how badly I needed a lift I suppose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunday Driver Posted June 4, 2006 Share Posted June 4, 2006 It would appear that this guy is commiting offences under both UK and French jurisdictions.With regard to the UK, under the system of continuous licencing, anyone taking a UK registered vehicle out of the country without permenently exporting it must ensure that it is taxed and has a current MOT certificate. If the tax expires whilst visiting or temporarily working abroad, arrangements exist for a replacement tax disc to be sent to the keeper at a foreign address.He can be exempted from having to have a valid tax disc if he declares SORN, confirming that the vehicle is being kept off the road. However, because he is still driving the vehicle under the specific circumstances mentioned above, ie, where he must have a valid tax disc, then he is committing an offence by declaring SORN. The maximum penalty for making a false declaration by declaring SORN when the vehicle is actually used or kept on a public road is £5,000 and two years imprisonment. In the event of an insurance claim, his UK insurers will clearly wish to investigate the circumstances. The DVLA is registered under the Data Protection Act to release information to the insurance companies and no doubt they would be surprised to learn of it's SORN status in connection with a road traffic accident in France. As a result, the claim would almost certainly be declined and the policy invalidated. Under MIAFTR, the insurance industry fraud reporting system, details would aqlso be reported to the UK police for investigation.If the accident occurs in France, he will be essentially uninsured and will incur a 3,750 euro fine, a three year driving ban and the vehicle may be subject to seizure. Furthermore, he is driving a foreign registered vehicle which should have been imported and registered here under his residency status (another 750 euros fine). But that will be the least of his problems. In the event of the accident causing death or serious injury, the absence of third party liability insurance cover means he will forced to sell his house, car, et al, in order to pay the stellar compensation that the victim's relatives will be awarded.So, would I travel in that car? Not on your nelly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Avery Posted June 4, 2006 Author Share Posted June 4, 2006 Thanks SD. You have confirmed what I thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
opas Posted June 4, 2006 Share Posted June 4, 2006 And so say all of us! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P Posted June 5, 2006 Share Posted June 5, 2006 What a wonderful ambassador he is for helping foreigners integrate with the natives, i.e. the French.Wonder what his attitude would be if he still lived in the UK and had a French neigbour who was doing as he is doing?Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
opas Posted June 5, 2006 Share Posted June 5, 2006 Best one I have seen in our area is a well reputed immoblier(french) who has a Brit working for him doing `visits` in his Brit reg out of date tax (at least a year last time I saw him) people carrier ferrying prosepective purchasers around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alcazar Posted June 7, 2006 Share Posted June 7, 2006 [quote user="Val_2"]They keep advertising the fact on the Uk TV here that all vehicles registered to the DVLA are computerised with all the details of insurers and MOT dates and they can find out instantly who is not bothering to keep their vehicle legal. Surely they will pursue those coming to France as well or if there is an accident here in France, surely the gendarmes will check with the UK side of the paperwork as well. I really don't understand these folks who break the law as the penalties here are a lot more severe in terms of punishment.[/quote]I'm pretty sure that that comes under the same banner as the "TV License Detector Van" myth.I forgot to re-tax our Xantia last year.........I was certain it was taxed for a year, but I'd taxed it for 6 months to get it out of synch with my car. I hardly ever drive the Xantia. Imagine my shock when I glanced at it in the drive and noticed the tax disc 4 months out of date. Wife, who drives it daily, hadn't noticed at all[:$]We got neither a reminder, nor the much advertised £80 fine.[:-))]I rang DVLA to ask what to do, and then asked WHY we'd not had reminder or fine. No proper answer was forthcoming, but a lot of bullsh*t WAS!Alcazar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ty Korrigan Posted June 7, 2006 Share Posted June 7, 2006 Merry lunch time! A wee while back I brought up the subject of U.K drivers who continue to drive the vehicle without tax, French plates, French C.T or French insurance displayed. These vehicles are often found in ferry or airport car parks. I can't imagine the wrangle that would happen if one of these where involved in even a minor scrape...Any way, I was shot down in flames when I suggested that we take a pre-emptive strike by letting down the tyres of these machines so they may not be used... I find it funny that people actually believed that I was serious... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogbreath Posted June 17, 2006 Share Posted June 17, 2006 Hello,Not necessarily but often SORN cars are also not MOT'd and then the car is not insured as you have lied (by ommission) on your insurance application.I have had a French car on French plates, insured in France for about 3 years. No problems.I have now bought a UK car (I really never got on with the steering wheel on the wrong side and feel safer in a rhd….. Please no comments it is a matter of choice for me)…. Anyway… I am now in the process of registering the car here in France…. I have incidentally found this site very good for advice on that front…. Thanks to all who contributed.In the process of bringing the car over I have been investigating the SORN and other aspects of importing UK cars, temporarily and permanently to France and can share the following with you.Basically you can export permanently or temporarily. Temporary export is only permitted for up to 364 Days. Permanent is over that duration of course.If you permanently export you need to go through the official process, which has been well covered elsewhere on the site.Temporary export is more complicated and if done instead of (or to hide) a permanent export (which lets face it is done all the time) can lead to some very serious problems…. Most notably driving with no MOT and consequently no insurance… (insurance being void by absence of MOT).Where to start???…. OK many people who temporarily export do so to avoid the inconvenience and cost of permanent export…. This is fine but they also try to save an extra few bob by declaring a SORN. … Not at all a good idea….The DVLA's site states that a SORN may not be done for cars which are ‘Permanently Exported, Scrapped or Sold’….. Temp Export is conspicuously absent from this list…. So one may easily infer that a SORN is ok on a temp export…. It is NOT!This would be a mistake… I have had detailed discussions with the DVLA and they inform me that a SORN is actually only valid if the car is ‘Off Road in the UK’. I would be inclined to disagree but they make (or interpret) the rules and they enforce them… No point arguing… what they say goes……. Of course unless they actually go round to your UK address and search for the car they will never know it is temporarily exported…. Temp export by the way requires no paperwork, so the start date is often ….. ‘moveable’ by unscrupulous car owners…. Insurance is no problem… You can insure in the UK with a European extension, I have done this until I get the car registered in France..The problems occur if you have an accident…. First, if the car is over 3 years old you will not have an MOT…. Anyone who says they have is not being honest. Either they have not or they have driven into the UK whilst under SORN to get one…. Either way they have been dishonest.So, presuming you have no MOT…. You have no Insurance. Whilst it is fair to say that in the event of an accident the Insurance company will not check with DVLA they most certainly will check for an MOT!!!!!!If you have an accident n France without insurance you are in a bag of Sh**e…. to put it mildly….. YOU will be liable for all costs and if there is a personal injury involved you could lose everything overnight!!! This is to say nothing of the criminal aspects and punishment you will receive……Is it worth it?SO, it is a bad idea to SORN your car on a temp export. Only SORN if your car is off road and in the UK….. Better to temp export and pay the UK road tax and get a regular MOT, in the UK…. You can get away with this indefinitely….. You can if you wish use a perpetual temp export (I don’t advocate this) but why be dodgy??? But why come to this country, make it your new home and then break the laws here? We are guests in France and as much as the laws and rules are a blooming inconvenience we should do our best to follow them…. RegardsK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogbreath Posted June 17, 2006 Share Posted June 17, 2006 Why let down the tyres. Report them to the DVLA and French Police.... That's what I do.This may seem extreme but what if is your family the run into....?Kev... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunday Driver Posted June 17, 2006 Share Posted June 17, 2006 "We are guests in France and as much as the laws and rules are a blooming inconvenience we should do our best to follow them…. "I'd argue that we aren't guests, but fully entitled French residents who are subject to French law and rules in the same way as any other French person living here. In terms of inconvenience, it's actually simpler and cheaper to import your car into France and run it legally over here, rather than mess about hauling it back to the UK each year for its MOT and purchasing an annual tax disc - or not bothering at all and risking the penalties..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esperaza Posted June 17, 2006 Share Posted June 17, 2006 [quote user="Alcazar"] [quote user="Val_2"]They keep advertising the fact on the Uk TV here that all vehicles registered to the DVLA are computerised with all the details of insurers and MOT dates and they can find out instantly who is not bothering to keep their vehicle legal. Surely they will pursue those coming to France as well or if there is an accident here in France, surely the gendarmes will check with the UK side of the paperwork as well. I really don't understand these folks who break the law as the penalties here are a lot more severe in terms of punishment.[/quote]I'm pretty sure that that comes under the same banner as the "TV License Detector Van" myth.I forgot to re-tax our Xantia last year.........I was certain it was taxed for a year, but I'd taxed it for 6 months to get it out of synch with my car. I hardly ever drive the Xantia. Imagine my shock when I glanced at it in the drive and noticed the tax disc 4 months out of date. Wife, who drives it daily, hadn't noticed at all[:$]We got neither a reminder, nor the much advertised £80 fine.[:-))]I rang DVLA to ask what to do, and then asked WHY we'd not had reminder or fine. No proper answer was forthcoming, but a lot of bullsh*t WAS!Alcazar[/quote] In the UK I live in a cul-de -sac off a main dual carriageway and at approximately 2 monthly intervals the police and VOSA use our road as an interviewing/ holding area for vehicles that have no tax, no MOT and/or no insurance.VOSA have a van with two cameras ( automatic number plate recognition ), in the rear that instantly report vehicles that do not have the requisite docs, or are stolen or have been used in a crime.The vehicles are escorted by police motorcyclists into our road where they are met by around 20 police officers for interview and vehicle inspection. Most of these vehicles are placed on the verge or roadside and clamped. There are dozens of them. Some are released when the owners return, having taxed/insured them etc.Most are loaded onto transporters and taken away.This activity continues from 07:30 until 19:00.So here it is definitely not " a myth", so I believe that you were lucky not to encounter VOSA! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunday Driver Posted June 17, 2006 Share Posted June 17, 2006 "Most are loaded onto transporters and taken away.".....to be crushed. [:-))][:-))][:-))] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogbreath Posted June 17, 2006 Share Posted June 17, 2006 I take your point but actually you will find that according to the Treaty of Rome we do not enjoy the full rights of a French citizen, even if we are resident.. The most notable exception to these rights being that we can be deported for anti scoial behaviour, ie breaking the laws of the land. We can lose our rights to residency, unlike a French Citizen.I conceed guests is not stricckly the most accurate legal reference I could have used but the point I suggest was not deminished by the error.I agree with your point about it being more simple to do things correctly.RespectfullyK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunday Driver Posted June 17, 2006 Share Posted June 17, 2006 Sorry if that came across as a bit of a nit-pick, Kev. It wasn't intended that way, but was meant to reinforce your point to others who might think that French law doesn't really apply to them.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogbreath Posted June 17, 2006 Share Posted June 17, 2006 Not a problem... I have a bit of a sensitive head on me today due to an unpleasant reply to another post I made concering swimming pools.Take Carekevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Smith Posted June 17, 2006 Share Posted June 17, 2006 Removed by poster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunday Driver Posted June 17, 2006 Share Posted June 17, 2006 Why has nivekwhatshisname's user name changed to dogbreath? And why are his posts now reading -1? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alcazar Posted June 18, 2006 Share Posted June 18, 2006 [quote user="Esperaza"][quote user="Alcazar"] [quote user="Val_2"]They keep advertising the fact on the Uk TV here that all vehicles registered to the DVLA are computerised with all the details of insurers and MOT dates and they can find out instantly who is not bothering to keep their vehicle legal. Surely they will pursue those coming to France as well or if there is an accident here in France, surely the gendarmes will check with the UK side of the paperwork as well. I really don't understand these folks who break the law as the penalties here are a lot more severe in terms of punishment.[/quote]I'm pretty sure that that comes under the same banner as the "TV License Detector Van" myth.I forgot to re-tax our Xantia last year.........I was certain it was taxed for a year, but I'd taxed it for 6 months to get it out of synch with my car. I hardly ever drive the Xantia. Imagine my shock when I glanced at it in the drive and noticed the tax disc 4 months out of date. Wife, who drives it daily, hadn't noticed at all[:$]We got neither a reminder, nor the much advertised £80 fine.[:-))]I rang DVLA to ask what to do, and then asked WHY we'd not had reminder or fine. No proper answer was forthcoming, but a lot of bullsh*t WAS!Alcazar[/quote] In the UK I live in a cul-de -sac off a main dual carriageway and at approximately 2 monthly intervals the police and VOSA use our road as an interviewing/ holding area for vehicles that have no tax, no MOT and/or no insurance.VOSA have a van with two cameras ( automatic number plate recognition ), in the rear that instantly report vehicles that do not have the requisite docs, or are stolen or have been used in a crime.The vehicles are escorted by police motorcyclists into our road where they are met by around 20 police officers for interview and vehicle inspection. Most of these vehicles are placed on the verge or roadside and clamped. There are dozens of them. Some are released when the owners return, having taxed/insured them etc.Most are loaded onto transporters and taken away.This activity continues from 07:30 until 19:00.So here it is definitely not " a myth", so I believe that you were lucky not to encounter VOSA! [/quote]Ah, but you miss my point. No-one is saying that they haven't got VOSA, and number plate recognition, nor that they haven't your details on a computer.What I AM saying is that the adverts promising INSTANT fines via the computer, if you forget, are a myth. I'm not the only one I know of to have "got away" with this, albeit, unwittingly.BTW: We ARE all aware that the idea of a fine , in Britain, as such, levied by anyone OTHER than a British Court, is unlawful, aren't we?Alcazar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Trollope Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 [quote user="Alcazar"]BTW: We ARE all aware that the idea of a fine , in Britain, as such, levied by anyone OTHER than a British Court, is unlawful, aren't we?Alcazar[/quote]Mostly - even the Magna Carta give us (you) rights to not have fines imposed without a trial...I must admit to having 2 vehicles (stored away!) with expired SORN's and 1 that I never even bothered to SORN & no hint of any fines.Bring 'em on, I say! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunday Driver Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 [quote user="Alcazar"] BTW: We ARE all aware that the idea of a fine , in Britain, as such, levied by anyone OTHER than a British Court, is unlawful, aren't we?[/quote]Well, I never knew that!So, when Midland Bank bought out the american Crocker Bank back in the 80's and by doing so, fell within the jurisdiction of the US Foreign Corrupt Practices Act, they could have happily gone around bribing government officals and not been fined by the US courts?And when the planned EU exchange of offender details system comes into effect allowing points to be applied to UK driving licences for offences commited in France, this will be unlawful?[quote user="nicktrollope"] Mostly - even the Magna Carta give us (you) rights to not have fines imposed without a trial...[/quote]I wish you'd tell that to my library...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russethouse Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 Sunday Driver - There has been a recent case where a man refused to pay his congestion charge/ or the non payment fine connected to it on the grounds that the collecting authority was not empowered to collect it , under some piece of legislation passed in the time of one of the King James. ( I hope someone else knows the details!)Sorry - its a bit woolly - but he won the case.I was semi interested as my late brother used to maintain he shouldn't have to pay VAT under the same law. The Vat man didn't agree though ![:)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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