Suitable insurance for France and UK

[BobDee]

Asking this for a friend currently in the UK. She has a UK registered car taxed and MOT'd, owns a property in France and one in UK. She aims to spend about 5 months a year in UK and seven in France. Currently has french insurance but that only allows 30 days in UK.

Anyone have any experience of a company UK or French that allows several months out of the country?

 

[Bob T]

If the car spends 7 months in France then should it not be French registered?

[BobDee]

Hi Bob

Dont really want to start this topic all over again, but I think that if its fully UK taxed and MOT'd and the insurance company know all the facts, then it is legal.

bobD 

[powerdesal]

I think you may find that the car in not necessarily the issue but....if your friend spends 7mths in France then she will be considered to be resident, ie more than 183 days. Such resident status will no doubt bring its own "issues".

[Alex H]

My car is insured via the "What Car?" website - courtesy of Liverpool Victoria and allows foreign use (within the EU) if the car is registered in the UK and

"is not kept abroad for more than 180 consecutive days"

Your interpretation of this may vary with the company's [:D]

[Benjamin]

[quote user="Tandem_Pilot"]

"is not kept abroad for more than 180 consecutive days"

Your interpretation of this may vary with the company's [:D]

[/quote]

Not car insurance but medical insurance. Many years ago I found myself rushed into Nantes hospital.

The first thing my  UK travel insurance provider asked for was proof of the date (in my case a copy of a ferry ticket) that I had entered France so I suppose if you weren't here permanently for more than the stated time limit you could " get away " with it.

Make sure that you aren't invalidating your insurance.

[nectarine]

Saga insurance allows an unlimited amount of time out of the country, 364 days, as long as you are resident in the UK.  I suppose there's a technicality about whether your friend is UK or French resident but if she is stating that her French house is a holiday home then she could get Saga insurance for extensive European coverage.  I believe they are the onlly company that do this (and I asked around a lot!).

[AnOther]

Loath as I am to resurrect what is a widely covered topic but this car is already illegal both in UK and France.

Contrary to what many believe (and a great many practice) it's not a "pick-n-mix" choice, a vehicle must be fully road legal in the country where it is registered. Therefore, if it is to remain on UK plates, this means Tax & MOT and UK insurance, exactly as if it were being used in UK. The fact that it is temporarily in France for several month's of the year, or anywhere for that matter, does not negate that.

There is another overriding problem though:

Leaving aside all the above, plus the the additional issues which arise if your friend is considered Franch resident, and the (worthless) French insurance, the maximum period a car may remain in France before requiring to be re-registered is 6 month's so on that basis alone it will become illegal.

As Nectarine says she could insure with with Saga although there are potential pitfalls to this.

Alternatively the complete and proper solution would be to register the car in France and switch the insurance to another company which does not impose limits on foreign, i.e. UK, use.

[Bob T]

[quote user="BobDee"]

Hi Bob

Dont really want to start this topic all over again, but I think that if its fully UK taxed and MOT'd and the insurance company know all the facts, then it is legal.

bobD 

[/quote]

 

Not the case if the French law says that a car must be registered here if it is here for more than 6 months. Insurance companies do not have a remit to make sure that drivers comply with the law. They do have a remit to take money and make a profit for the company.

[geoff]

[quote user="ErnieY"]Loath as I am to resurrect what is a widely covered topic but this car is already illegal both in UK and France.

Contrary to what many believe (and a great many practice) it's not a "pick-n-mix" choice, a vehicle must be fully road legal in the country where it is registered. Therefore, if it is to remain on UK plates, this means Tax & MOT and UK insurance, exactly as if it were being used in UK. The fact that it is temporarily in France for several month's of the year, or anywhere for that matter, does not negate that.






[/quote]

That is very true,

  I know a Dutch couple that nearly lost there car ,after she was stopped for speeding,and told the police she had lived and been driveing on Dutch plates for ten years.

So why take the chance

[BobDee]

I feel as if I am playing devils advocate here, having had my " ancient" cars French plated for 18 months now, but as originally stated, my friends UK plated car is UK taxed, UK MOT'd and will have UK insurance, perhaps SAGA. If it shuttles back and forth from France to the UK over a twelve month period, who is to say that it is breaking the law?

We have all had experinces of not having passports even looked at at UK France border crossings, and no doubt number plates are photographed both sides, but I seriously doubt that a data base exists that uses all this info and flags the fact that car has spent six months and one day in any particular country. The six month "must be registered" period is presumably a continuous period of six months. When we first arrved in France, our UK plated cars were insured by AXA on the understanding that they were French registered in the next six months,  which of  course they were.   

As stated previously if the car is UK legal and the insurance company are fully aware of the cars usage and will therefor pay up in the event of an accident, where is the problem?

There have to be many people who for professional reasons spend varying times out of France. All the aforementioned laws are designed to catch the person is drives on UK plates whilst living permanently in France. This is not the case here.

If in one year, a person spends seven months in the UK and five in France and the next year five in the UK and seven in France, are you expected to switch insurers every year, assuming of course you know in advance where you will be in the next twelve months?

BobD

(Wish I hadn't started this!)

[Tony F Dordogne]

Sorry Bob, I don't see the issue here.  Your friend is here for 7 months of the year so the car should be registered here.  Plenty of time has been spent on this issue over the years on here and the advice you've been given is very clear - it doesn't matter whether she's 'resident', 183 days or whatever, French and UK law says if the car is in France for more than 6 months, it should be SORNd and registered in France.  Pick and mix isn't an option and it's English legality has no bearing on this at all, it's French law that wins out.

Wait until she has an accident or is stopped by the Gendarmes and looses her car - then she'll wish she complied with the law and that is happening more and more as the Gendarmes clamp down on speeding, drunk driving and Europeans taking the mickey out of their French hosts, it's a national initiative tho it is being enforced more rigorously in some areas than in others.

[Boiling a frog]

 European law states that one is allowed to use a vehicle registered in another european country for a maximum of 6 months in an EU country where one is not resident.

UK law states that if you intend to be a perminant resident of the UK the foreign registered vehicle on entering the country must remain off road until it is reregistered.

French law states that you have one month to reregister your vehicle.

Is anyone suggesting that this person ,who has decided to come to France for 7 months,but will remain tax resident in the UK(due to the UK tax rules) will have to reregister the vehicle within one month of arrival.

Then at the end of the seven months ,return to the UK, keep the vehicle off road until it is reregistered in the UK.

And so on.

I think we need a touch of realism in these circumstances.If the car is insured,taxed etc and the insurance coy is aware that it going to be in France for 7 months the I cannot see any problem.     

[Alex H]

[quote user="Boiling a frog"]If the car is insured,taxed etc and the insurance coy is aware that it going to be in France for 7 months the I cannot see any problem.     [/quote]

But the insurance company is not aware:

[quote user="BobDee"]Anyone have any experience of a company UK or French that allows several months out of the country? [/quote]

[geoff]

[quote user="Boiling a frog"]

 European law states that one is allowed to use a vehicle registered in another european country for a maximum of 6 months in an EU country where one is not resident.

UK law states that if you intend to be a perminant resident of the UK the foreign registered vehicle on entering the country must remain off road until it is reregistered.

French law states that you have one month to reregister your vehicle.

Is anyone suggesting that this person ,who has decided to come to France for 7 months,but will remain tax resident in the UK(due to the UK tax rules) will have to reregister the vehicle within one month of arrival.

Then at the end of the seven months ,return to the UK, keep the vehicle off road until it is reregistered in the UK.

And so on.

I think we need a touch of realism in these circumstances.If the car is insured,taxed etc and the insurance coy is aware that it going to be in France for 7 months the I cannot see any problem.     

[/quote]

 

Sorry after all the above good advice, why stay with u.k. reg. when to french reg. has to be better.

no1 no road tax.

no2  2yrs testing.

no 3 and if you changed your driving permit. drive to your death.

[Boiling a frog]

[quote user="Tandem_Pilot"][quote user="Boiling a frog"]If the car is insured,taxed etc and the insurance coy is aware that it going to be in France for 7 months the I cannot see any problem.     [/quote]

But the insurance company is not aware:

[quote user="BobDee"]Anyone have any experience of a company UK or French that allows several months out of the country? [/quote]




[/quote]

The OP was asking about insurance that would cover in the circumstances given,and was advised that saga cover for 12 months.So the OP has now found an insurance coy which will cover and presumably will be told of the circumstances.

[Boiling a frog]

[quote user="geoff"]

 

Sorry after all the above good advice, why stay with u.k. reg. when to french reg. has to be better.

no1 no road tax.

no2  2yrs testing.

no 3 and if you changed your driving permit. drive to your death.

[/quote]

 

One slight flaw in that arguement.

The person is a  UK resident and it is illegal under EU law to drive a foreign registered vehicle in your country of residence.Otherwise we could all avoid UK road tax etc by buying a French registered car

 

[AnOther]

[quote user="BobDee"]but as originally stated, my friends UK plated car is UK taxed, UK MOT'd and will have UK insurance, perhaps SAGA[/quote]Allow me to remind you of your original post Bob because this is NOT what you stated.

[quote user="BobDee"]Currently has french insurance but that only allows 30 days

in UK[/quote]I take your point about 5/7 month's or 7/5 months and indeed the law is clumsy, it probably never having been designed for such relatively uncommon circumstances, however it is what it is and like it or not must be observed. Fancy foot work and a "who knows or cares attitude" may seem OK - until something happens - at which time when the onus is on you (your friend) to prove that they were in compliance with the law, this is when it all goes pear shaped.

As I previously said your friends best (only) option is to French register the car and find a sympathetic insurer, and preferrably direct not through a broker so there is no possibility of misunderstanding or argument at a later date.

Tony: I'm surprised you suggest SORNing as it is clearly not appropriate in this case, if the car is to be registered in France it must be exported.

BAF:[quote user="Boiling a frog"]this person, who has decided to come to

France for 7 months, but will remain tax resident in the UK(due to the

UK tax rules)[/quote]I think you need to expand on this one. Residency is no more pick-n-mix than car registration.

[quote user="BobDee"](Wish I hadn't started this!)[/quote]Amen to that....................[:D]

[AnOther]

[quote user="Boiling a frog"]Otherwise we could all avoid UK road tax etc by buying a French registered car[/quote]You mean like Noel Edmunds.............[6]

[BobDee]

Ernie,

The only reason for the change to the original was the advice on the thread to date re Saga.

Overall the position does not seem be too accurately described in law. In practice there will be tens of thousands of sales reps etc, spending their working lives driving around Europe. They will frequently be stopped by the police and the police will check the documention based on the cars national registration.

A UK car will be checked for UK tax, MOT and UK insurance. If all three are there, everything fine Sir, off you go.

In practice, unless you are in an accident, you are less likely to be pulled in at a random stop with overseas plates than with French plates.

Just imagine how much info the local Gendarme has on Polish driving documentation.

Just one more point, then I think I'll get the scotch bottle at the ready, No Road Tax is somewhat of a myth. When registering my old Mercedes, with a CV of 20, I had to pay around 400€, similarly when buying a new gas guzzler, the initial tax is equivalent to a good few years of annual road tax.

BobD 

[geoff]

[quote user="Boiling a frog"][quote user="geoff"]

 

Sorry after all the above good advice, why stay with u.k. reg. when to french reg. has to be better.

no1 no road tax.

no2  2yrs testing.

no 3 and if you changed your driving permit. drive to your death.

[/quote]

 

One slight flaw in that arguement.

The person is a  UK resident and it is illegal under EU law to drive a foreign registered vehicle in your country of residence.Otherwise we could all avoid UK road tax etc by buying a French registered car

 

[/quote]

 

You cannot be a u.k.res. if you spend seven months in france.

[Bob T]

This whole thread sounds like another one that is trying to find loopholes so that they don't have to put any effort into anything. When they have an accident they will probably tell the police that the car is OK because someone on the living France forum said it was OK.

On another point, SAGA will NOT isnsure a car for 12 months unless you are a UK resident, and as has been pointed out, 183 days in France makes them a French resident.

[Boiling a frog]

Can I suggest that people look at HM Customs web site and in particular

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/leaflets/c9.htm

 

Just a couple of extracts

If you go abroad permanently, you will be treated as remaining resident and

ordinarily resident if your visits to the UK average 91 days or more a year - see

paragraph 2.10.

 

If you are resident in the UK year after year, you are treated as ordinarily resident

here. You may be resident but not ordinarily resident in the UK for a tax year if, for

example, you normally live outside the UK but are in this country for 183 days or

more in the year. Or you may be ordinarily resident but not resident for a tax year if,

for example, you usually live in the UK but have gone abroad for a long holiday and

do not set foot in the UK during that year.

 

So it appears that this person is a UK resident as they spend on average approx 150 days in the UK per year  but it is a complex issue

[geoff]

[quote user="Boiling a frog"]Can I ask some kind mod to delete these duplicate posts I did only press the submit button once.[:D][/quote]

 

Think the mods on day off,

It is a fete day

[AnOther]

The only reason for the change to the original was the advice on the thread to date re Saga

Which in this case seems not appropriate.

In practice there will be tens of thousands of sales reps etc, spending their working lives driving around Europe. They will frequently be stopped by the police and the police will check the documention based on the cars national registration.

Sure there are reps driving around but I very much doubt any of them are spending 6 months out of their country of residence, besides which their cars will almost certainly be registered to their companies which changes the scenario completely.

A UK car will be checked for UK tax, MOT and UK insurance. If all three are there, everything fine Sir, off you go.

You're having a larff surely. Insurance perhaps but the average Gendarme knows little if anything of UK Tax or Mot (nor what passes for legal in most other EU countries for that matter) and if they did there would not be the 100's if not 1000's of illegal cars running around France that there are. I just hope one of them never bumps into me.

In practice, unless you are in an accident, you are less likely to be pulled in at a random stop with overseas plates than with French plates.

Very true, and something which I'm sure for many forms a significant part of what motivates them to buck the system and break the law.

Just imagine how much info the local Gendarme has on Polish driving documentation.

About the same as they have on UK at a guess.

Just one more point, then I think I'll get the scotch bottle at the ready, No Road Tax is somewhat of a myth. When registering my old Mercedes, with a CV of 20, I had to pay around 400€, similarly when buying a new gas guzzler, the initial tax is equivalent to a good few years of annual road tax.

Have you seen the current VED rates in UK. At least in France you pay it only once.

Pass that Scotch now old chap would you [:D]

PS: You might find that after a short while you can delete your duplicates yourself [;-)]