The law for registering UK car that has French Insurance !

[milkeybar kid]

Sorry to ask but I have just spent 1hr trawling through old post to get proof for people that were delighted to be able to explain to me " there is no need to register Uk car in France as long as it has French  Control Tec and French Insurance", I am convinced they are wrong and reading the many threads confirmed this but please , I need an official link French and  English would be great. They do seem genuine on their thoughts not the type to be jack the lad in avoiding for the sake of  its just that they think its the rule in not needing to register.

 It puzzles me why the Insurance companies are not doing more (or perhaps I have it wrong and u dont ), I am sure our first Insurance company (6yrs ago!) on arrival in France said we have 3 months to register -which we did. Official link would be brill [:D]

[Clair]

[quote user="milkeybar kid"]It puzzles me why the Insurance companies are not doing more[/quote]

The onus is on the owner to register the vehicle.

The insurance company is mainly concerned with getting the owner's money, not making him comply with the law.

Official link:

http://vosdroits.service-public.fr/particuliers/

http://vosdroits.service-public.fr/particuliers/F19222.xhtml

[AnOther]

I'm sure Clair's link explains everything but above all there is the fact that, as a basic rule, French residents are not permitted to drive foreign registered vehicles which is, of itself, a 'slam dunk', and means that UK plates cannot be legal.

I understand that there are certain exceptions to do with say driving UK regged cars belonging to visiting family members but that is not what we are talking about here.

I'm not sure if this is a domestic or EU rule but similar applies in UK.

[gosub]

Have a look on this LINK

Google English

[allanb]

[quote user="ErnieY"]French residents are not permitted to drive foreign registered vehicles...

[/quote]Statements to this effect have been made several times on the forum, and not only about France.  Some links have been provided as evidence.  However - although I don't claim to have read every word in every link - the "evidence" I've seen seems to be about importation, registration, and taxation of the vehicle, not about who is allowed to drive it.

The assertion I'm questioning is this: that if you are resident in country X you may not drive, in country X, a vehicle registered in another country.

Can anyone who believes this quote the authority for it? It's not just an idle question: it will probably be relevant for me in the near future.

By the way, even if it's generally true, there must obviously be exceptions for company-owned vehicles such as rental cars.  I'm not talking about that situation.

[gosub]

Have a look HERE

[Maricopa]

This is very interesting.  This year, many of the hire companies at Toulouse airport have been hiring out German registered cars.  The link from Gosub appears to suggest it is illegal to drive such a vehicle[8-)]

[AnOther]

Considering the title of the topic I did not feel it necessary to include such things as hire cars or company vehicles etc. as clearly these will fall under different rules.

It's worth taking a moment to remember that, outwith the monetary side, the single fundamental point of registration is to facilitate traceability, something which cannot readily be accomplished for vehicles not bearing French number plates.

[AnOther]

[quote user="allanb"][quote user="ErnieY"]French residents are not permitted to drive foreign registered vehicles...

[/quote]Statements to this effect have been made several times on the forum, and not only about France.  Some links have been provided as evidence.  However - although I don't claim to have read every word in every link - the "evidence" I've seen seems to be about importation, registration, and taxation of the vehicle, not about who is allowed to drive it.

The assertion I'm questioning is this: that if you are resident in country X you may not drive, in country X, a vehicle registered in another country.

Can anyone who believes this quote the authority for it? It's not just an idle question: it will probably be relevant for me in the near future.

By the way, even if it's generally true, there must obviously be exceptions for company-owned vehicles such as rental cars.  I'm not talking about that situation.

[/quote]Try HERE, the point is made in the second bulleted 'Notes to Editors' the terms of which I believe are mirrored in France.

[Sunday Driver]

[quote user="Maricopa"]This is very interesting.  This year, many of the hire companies at Toulouse airport have been hiring out German registered cars.  The link from Gosub appears to suggest it is illegal to drive such a vehicle[8-)][/quote]

Contract rentals to Airbus for foreign staff/business visitors?

 

 

[Maricopa]

[quote user="Sunday Driver"]Contract rentals to Airbus for foreign staff/business visitors?[/quote]

I should have said in my original post the cars were hired to visiting holidaymakers.

EDIT: Having re-read the link form Gosub, it appears that as holidaymakers they can drive such a car, as they are doing so in a country that they don't have their main residence, but if I was to go to Toulouse and hire a car, if they offered me a German registered car and I drove it, I would be doing so illegally[8-)]

[allanb]

Gosub's link contains this:

Moreover, it is forbidden to drive a vehicle registered abroad in the country in which you have your main residence (though EU countries are free to apply more liberal rules). This means that you cannot sell, hire out or even lend your vehicle when you are using it temporarily in another Member State and, by the same token, you cannot purchase, hire or borrow (and drive) a vehicle bearing foreign plates in your country of residence.  (my emphasis)

This appears to be an EC website, so I suppose I should treat it with respect, but it cannot be correct.  The example of German rental cars at Toulouse has been mentioned, but that may be exceptional; there are other examples where rental of foreign-registered cars by local residents is an everyday thing.  

The one I know best is Luxembourg airport, where about half of the available rental cars at any time are foreign-registered (mostly Belgian, but also French and German).   If the quoted rule is correct, then if you're a French resident and they give you a Luxembourg car, you're breaking the law if you drive to Metz; and if you're a Luxembourg resident and you drive off in a non-Luxembourg car, you're breaking the law as soon as you leave the airport.   (The second of these is something I have done, many times.)  

 

When you book a rental car in Luxembourg nobody asks where you live or where you are going to drive the car.  (They look at your licence before they give you the keys, but they've assigned the car to you before that happens.)  And the situation must be similar at any airport close to a border: Strasbourg or Geneva, for instance.   I cannot believe that Hertz, Avis, etc, regularly allow people to take their cars away and drive them illegally.  

So I don't believe that "rule".

Ernie: I've looked at the paragraph in your link also, but as far as I can see it deals with conditions for exemption from registration and taxation when a vehicle is temporarily imported. There's no mention of driving.

I suggest that, as a general proposition, you can drive any vehicle anywhere as long as (a) you have the owner's permission, (b) you have a valid licence for the vehicle category, and (c) there is valid insurance that fulfils local requirements.   I still don't think anyone's quoted a law that says otherwise.  

[allanb]

PS to my comments about Luxembourg: I should have added "unless things have changed".  It's been a few years since I lived there.

[jsb]

I have also been trying to find this out and can only find the same sites which talk about importing cars.  We have now registered a couple of cars from the UK and one from Italy.  Not because we couldn't find anyone to insure it, but because we were stuck when we wanted to take the car back to the UK.  Our road tax had run out and we couldn't re-tax it without UK insurance or MOT for which we needed an UK address.  As insurance companies are the same the world over, if your car is not taxed, they will find a way out of not paying, regardless of whether you have a CT.  I also have the theory that as we've made the decision to move to France, it's easier all round if we move everything and not just some things.  It's far easier all round.

[AnOther]

[quote user="allanb"]Ernie: I've looked at the paragraph in your link also, but as far as I can see it deals with conditions for exemption from registration and taxation when a vehicle is temporarily imported. There's no mention of driving.[/quote]Look again !

"European Union vehicles

It is the responsibility for

the driver to prove how long the vehicle has been in the country. This

can be done by producing ferry tickets.

EU vehicles brought into

the UK will be allowed to circulate freely for six months in any 12

month period without the need to register here, provided the vehicle

complies with the requirements of its home country. Where the keeper of

the vehicle becomes resident in this country, the vehicle must be

immediately registered and licensed here. UK residents are not entitled

to use a foreign registered vehicle on UK roads."

I don't see how much more unequivocal it can be, unless you are trying to imagine some subtle distinction between 'using' and 'driving' ?

[allanb]

[quote user="ErnieY"]I don't see how much more unequivocal it can be, unless you are trying to imagine some subtle distinction between 'using' and 'driving' ?[/quote]Yes, I'm hoping there may be such a distinction.  I don't think it's absurd; it may be similar to the distinction between 'keeping' and 'owning'.

Either that, or an exception that meets my situation.  We know there must be exceptions (e.g. rental cars, as discussed) but they are not mentioned here, so it obviously isn't a complete statement.

I may be clutching at straws, but it could save me a lot of hassle.

[Boiling a frog]

allanb

Perhaps if you told us your precise problem then perhaps someone would be able to help.

EU directives 83/182 and 83/183 lay out the principals .

In simple terms the rules have been designed so that people cannot registerer a car in an EU country of their choice, they must register their car in their country of residence and they cannot drive a car registered in another EU country in their country of residence.

Otherwise everyone in the UK would register their car in France(for example) and by that means avoid UK road tax.

There are exemptions but until you tell us your situation no one can guess a solution    

[Will]

[quote user="Boiling a frog"]

Otherwise everyone in the UK would register their car in France(for example) and by that means avoid UK road tax.

[/quote]

I know people who do that, and seem to get away with it. So whatever the law is, it does not seem to be enforced.

 

[AnOther]

My understanding is that he wants to take his French car to UK and let his UK resident son drive it whilst there.

[Boiling a frog]

[quote user="Will"][quote user="Boiling a frog"]

Otherwise everyone in the UK would register their car in France(for example) and by that means avoid UK road tax.

[/quote]

I know people who do that, and seem to get away with it. So whatever the law is, it does not seem to be enforced.

 

[/quote]

 

I believe their days are numbered

http://www.regtransfers.co.uk/number-plates-news/DVLA_foreign_numberplates151008.asp

[Boiling a frog]

[quote user="ErnieY"]My understanding is that he wants to take his French car to UK and let his UK resident son drive it whilst there.

[/quote]

If  that is the case then

If he is French resident then he can take his car to the UK ( the old 6 months in a twelve month period) and he can allow his son to drive it occasionally

Here again, however, the prohibition has to be interpreted reasonably.

One cannot prohibit a holder of this exemption from carrying out the

routine tasks of daily life or responding to duly substantiated exceptional

circumstances. For instance, the Commission considers that the

prohibition on lending such a car does not apply when the holder is on

board but the car is being driven by a resident of the Member State of

temporary "importation". Neither can one treat as prohibited lending a

situation where a resident of one Member State, temporarily visiting his

family or friends in another Member State, allows a member of the

family or a friend to make occasional use of the car.

Extracted from

http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/resources/documents/com_en.pdf

There are also rules regarding students etc.

If he is a UK resident then he cannot take the French registered car to the UK , see my previous post re ANPR cameras and clamp down

[AnOther]

[quote user="allanb"][quote user="ErnieY"]I don't see how much more unequivocal it can be, unless you are trying to imagine some subtle distinction between 'using' and 'driving' ?[/quote]Yes, I'm hoping there may be such a distinction.[/quote]This is getting ridiculous, in terms of a car what alternative meaning can you possible ascribe to 'using' other than driving the damn thing [:-))]

[AnOther]

Thank you BAF for reminding me of the bit about not applying if the owner is on board, a similar situation to that in France if I recall.

So allanb, there is your answer.

A word of caution though; I would be very surprised if your average traffic plod were au fait with the subtleties we are discussing and therefore a plan fraught with risk. My advice would be to print off all the EU information referred to and make sure it is carried in the car just in case.

Good luck.

[allanb]

[quote user="ErnieY"]My understanding is that he wants to take his French car to UK and let his UK resident son drive it whilst there.[/quote]Exactly, although my son's driving is not the purpose of my visit: only incidental to it.

[quote user="Boiling a frog"]quoting from the European Commission: ...the Commission considers that the prohibition on lending such a car does not apply when the holder is on board but the car is being driven by a resident of the Member State of temporary "importation". Neither can one treat as prohibited lending a situation where a resident of one Member State, temporarily visiting his family or friends in another Member State, allows a member of the family or a friend to make occasional use of the car.[/quote]

That's just what I was hoping to find.  It's good to know that common sense can be found in regulations. 

My thanks to all those who have taken an interest in this.

By the way:

[quote user="ErnieY also"]This is getting ridiculous, in terms of a car what alternative meaning can you possible ascribe to 'using' other than driving the damn thing![/quote]

Now you know!

[AnOther]

Know what ?