Agents - an the lack of response

[Debra]

Incidentally, its still on the market if the original poster would like to view it and appreciate the point!  If you are ever passing through Le Dorat...........

[P]

Debra, as the original poster you have demonstrated that descriptions can be works of fiction - when it comes to the time to buy each time I shall look the agent in the eyes and tell them that if they waste my time I will waste their time greatly so the whole relationship shall have to be one of trust and most of all honesty.

As to the property you describe I do not think I would have bothered to have toured around it, nor have sought out the lake but to have had very sharp words with the agent as soon as I saw that he/she was wasting my time.

Perhaps we need to take along aportable lie-detector and strap the agent to it when enquiring about properties.

I shall just hope that it is an exception to the rule but will be very wary.

Jon, we will bear your comments about lack of response in mind - wonder if the cab company in France is affiliated to our local UK one? Seems like keeping ones blood pressure down is hard at times.

MWJ your story about sixth sense reminded me of the story of the person in jeans who, in the early 60s, went into a Rolls Royce dealer in London and was told to 'go away'. A little while later he parked outside the dealership in a new Rolls Royce and informed them he had bought one elsewhere. From then on the dealership opened its mind about potential buyers - wonder if it is true.

 

[BJSLIV]

"France is a socialist state with a very laissez faire approach to business"

Must be a new kind of Socialism, its not the kind I've come accross before!

[Debra]

[quote]Debra, as the original poster you have demonstrated that descriptions can be works of fiction - when it comes to the time to buy each time I shall look the agent in the eyes and tell them that if they...[/quote]

Aha - but its all relative!  The recent renovation was recent in the agent's eyes, compared to other properties he had on his books.  You'd be amazed to see some of the places on the market and then find out that they are only recently empty because the owner has just died.  You wouldn't imagine and would find it hard to believe that people could live like that, but they do!

We carried on, partly out of amazement and partly because it was a property we had flown out specially to see on an overnight trip and we had no other properties to view and it was like a compulsion to see just how bad it was.  We creased up laughing later (after a few hours to get over the shock).  Mainly because we'd both been polite and I'd been saying things like 'well, maybe you could just rip that out and start again....' and hubby had been saying things about how you could maybe improve the lake with vegetation and by ripping out the dead tree.... so we each thought the other was seriously contemplating it (he thought I liked the house and I thought he liked the lake) and so didn't like to run!  We were both so relieved when we realised we were both equally horrified by it all!  We now look back on that trip as an expensive night out or a long way to go for the lovely meal we had that night!

It was a good experience in the end because we never did that again.  No matter how good something sounded, we were sure to make plenty of other appointments for the trip so it wouldn't be wasted (and no, it turned out not to be an exception to the rule).  Except for hubby's latest trip, to see 'his lakes' (one trip for one property but he was so excited I couldn't stop him - but I didn't go with him!), which turned out well because he loved the property and made an immediate offer.  We learned never to get too excited about a property, assume the worst - and enjoy the research, even though we were much more specific about our wants and areas than you are just now, we learned to treat it as research and lose that idea of 'this will be the one' even though the money was burning a hole in our pockets and we really wanted to find somewhere, quick!

[Creusois]

Speaking as an Agent Commercial I must say that I for one do reply to all enquiries made to me - it is more often than not the originators that do not respond to my replies.   So many people come to France with a fixed dream in their heads - they have an image of a property, a location and a price, and they know it exists because they have seen it on the TV.   If I can supply their every wish then I am a dream-maker, but if I fail to provide them with what they want, then I am a dream-breaker.     I try to be honest with them all and tell them the good and the bad about every house, but some people just won't listen to the words and still see their dream as being the truth rather than the reality of what is actually before them.  The worst offenders are the "I want something for nothing" breed, and when you have spent hours travelling round the countryside with them, and then negotiated them a great deal, they finally have the nerve to tell you that they have no money to buy it.   

[Debra]

Exactly - and a lot of agents might be used to that and so not always reply if they get the sort of email the original poster may have sent, because they are reallly only doing research and are not ready to buy somewhere.  As he said, come the time when they have the euros in their pockets.....which is obviusly not now.  How would you respond in that instance?  Is it really worth responding to such requests and being a 'tour guide'?

[P]

DEBRA - PERHAPS I NEED TO SHOUT - I AM NOT LOOKING FOR A TOUR GUIDE I AM BEING UPFRONT - WE ARE JUST RESEARCHING AND LOOKING FOR SOME DETAILS.

My views are that it will be the agent who in future who would like me to buy a house via their company (no sales no business!). From a potential purchasers point of view, and the potential purchase will be next year, the agent can create either a good impression or a bad one. For me, the agent in question has created a bad one. Any reply would be preferable to no reply.

Debra, I wonder how you conduct research when buying something. From your attitude you just do not do any - by the time we are ready to buy we want to know the area we wish to buy in - and that will include are the properties affordable. I anticipate that we will make sveral trips to establish this.

I take note of the fact that the descriptions can be a major work of fiction.

Now, if I had been devious, I would have told the agent that we are ready to buy so please show us properties and then fobbed them off with comments such as 'not exactly what we are looking for'. I am not and have therefore just asked for email details (DEBRA THAT MEANS NO PERSON TAKING US AROUND).

Creusois, you, as an agent seem to have a feel for customer relations. Yes, it is very impolite when clients do not respond to emails and it must be very frustrating, (my wife works in the service industry and regales me with stories of how rude people have been that day) which is why I have tried to be fair, upfront and not waste peoples time NOR ASK THEM TO BE A TOUR GUIDE.  

 

[Debra]

No, there is no need to shout - I find it rather rude actually.  The question is, to an agent is there any point in spending time (and therefore money) dealing with a request from you when you are not ready to buy until next year, whether this time/money is spent in preparing details for you or spending time with you in their office, explaining where properties are and having you sign a contract before you do a drive by. 

As to research - yes we did lots, there, on the ground and on the net, but apart from a general tour of areas on holiday, not until we had the money to spend as prices can change a lot in a short time - both here in the UK (so one may have more or less money to spend than originally thought) or in France (so you might not be able to afford the same property next year as you can now). 

If you visit the area and like it, you can check out prices in agents windows or on the net when you get home.  We never wasted an agents time until we had the money ready to spend.  Then signed up to spend it (a few times actually, since one fell through because we were unable to get a CU, another had some dodgy surveys so we changed our minds about it, and then we signed up to buy two other properties in quick succession, this time with no clause suspensives and no reason to worry about survey results, so its done).

[Debra]

By the way, if you haven't found it already - this region map is a good starting point if you know nothing about areas or property prices.  Just trying to be helpful, despite being shouted at!

http://www.frenchentree.com/fe-regions/

[BJSLIV]

I'm afraid that if you are trying to just get "a feel" of an area and likely house purchases you are doomed to failure if you tackle it via the email to the agent approach.

Firstly as others have said many  French businesses do not respond well to emails treating them as trivial intrusions "pas serieux".

However even if you were to visit most agents you would still be none the wiser because even if you had the detailed particulars you still would in many cases be unable to find the property. Many agents only state "region de xxxville"; which could mean anywhere within a twenty kilometre radius.

You can get a feel of general price levels by reading the Brit Property Mags, Web Sites English and French. And when you have a general idea you will then have to visit the area. Mooch around and visit the agents to discuss your needs.

I understand exactly where you are coming from, we have done it ourselves, in the UK. We went through pages and pages of particulars but only visited a handful before we bought. But in France you really would be none the wiser if most agents gave you the entire content of the filing cabinet of "brochures". They really do give a personal service, you tell them what you want , and if they have it they take you to see it.

They can afford to do it when their fee is typically 8%.

[Kayjay<P> <P><P>"Passer sa vie à lutter contre la connerie est le meilleur procédé pour mourir dépuisement."<P>]

I've bought property in various parts of France over the past 20-odd years and am in the process of trying to find somewhere in the Nord-Pas de Calais area.  Since I'm dealing this time mainly with the UK-based agents, I'm finding it very frustrating that they are so inefficient.  I know pretty much exactly where the property has to be, I have supplied them with certain criteria in terms of location/interior layout etc.  I have explained that I am not looking to waste their time or mine; I've been over there looking at various properties and have money burning a hole in my pocket.  However, when I ask simple questions like "How big are the rooms?", "How close is the road?", the stock response is "the local agent won't tell us in case you go direct to the seller" or, even more infuriating, "contact us about it again when you have your trip booked"!

I've explained many times that I have no intention of booking a trip on the basis of viewing a house which is very likely to be completely unsuitable, to which they reply "the local agent will have plenty of other properties to show you"!  Okay, if that's the case then show me some details of these mythical properties now....and off we go on the same merry-go-round again.

I quite understand that people can be downright duplicitous and go behind the agent's back, I am also well aware that their world abounds with time-wasters and dreamers - but I am also only too conscious that a lot of these agents are full of B-S themselves (I almost said world-class but that would be flattering most of them).  If they can't sell temselves to me then they are not likely to sell me anything else either.

Thus far I've certainly dealt with all the "major players" and the results have been illuminating:

• silence, after my initial contact and their "we'll get right back to you"
• an attitude of take-it-or-leave-it from another (with a very stroppy manner from some members of staff)
• friendly contact but patchy efficiency, big communication gaps, followed by talk of "hundreds" of properties in the pipe-line, none of which materialize
• another very friendly one (and a very sexy accent!) but "further details" are just a print-out of the web details

One common thread has been taking me to see properties which don't evenly vaguely resemble the one I've described and which turn out to have been very "creatively" photographed.

As I said, I can well appreciate the problems they face but, in the final analysis, I AM trying to make the whole process as painless as possible for all concerned and I AM trying to narrow down the choice of properties as far as possible - if they want to lever the money out of my pocket and into theirs they are going to have to try harder to forget the hundred time-wasters they had yesterday and not send me on wild-goose chases.

[P]

Debra, yes, it is rude, but this was the second time that you have accused me of trying to get agents to act as tour guides – I was just trying to make the point that I am not.

 

I also appreciate all the help that you and the other contributors to this topic and the other topics that I have posted.

 

I also appreciate that France is different to the UK.

 

We obviously have different ideas on wasting time. Your idea of me ‘wasting their time’ is my idea of them having an opportunity to create a good impression on me for when it is actually time to do the deed – a public relations thing showing how ‘customer focussed’ they are.

 

The best example I have ever had of customer focus was on a visit to the US. I had a little time to kill one evening before heading off to a restaurant for dinner. I wandered around a department store and in the photographic section came across APS cameras. I had not seen them in the UK (they were just being launched). One of the assistants asked if he could help me. I declined, telling him I was only just browsing prior to having dinner. I then asked him what the APS system was. Now, knowing that I was merely browsing to kill time he explained the system thoroughly, and all of this knowing that he was not going to get a sale. Well, he did. The system sounded very good I reasoned that it must catch on plus I was very impressed with his excellent customer focus – even to  non-customer, if you get my drift. Now, if I wanted anything else there I would seek him out.

 

There is that old saying you have to speculate to accumulate. Whilst I have found out the differences in the relationship between the seller, buyer and agent, which is the reverse to the UK, in the UK the person who they are going to get money, the seller, is courted. I constantly have flyers through the door, ‘do you wish to sell your house’. In addition, they offer no-obligation free valuations. Whilst this is a ‘spratt to catch a mackerel’, some people have these carried out just to know what their house would be valued at with no intention of selling. Here, the agents are participating in a little bit of PR in order that at some time in the future they might be looked upon favourably when it comes time to sell – and I am not one fooled by over-valuations.

 

As a buyer, when it came to buying the last house, I experienced some very helpful agents and some who were very unhelpful. One agent would not let me view properties as I did not have a buyer for my property. When I found the right property, the owners of which wanted a quick sale, the previous house still did not have a buyer. A chat with my agent as to what I needed to do to shift it resulted in my reducing the price by the amount the agent said and two days after reducing the price, and the agent phoning around potential purchasers I had a buyer. When things seemed that they might go wrong with the purchase of the current house we went around the agents, explained the situation and those that were the most unhelpful could not do enough to show me houses that they had on their books. Now, when it comes to selling this house (and the purchase of a house in France is not dependent upon selling this property) There are just a couple of agents that I will let market it (and that does not include the agents who were selling it for the previous owners) as I know they are customer focussed towards potential purchasers.

 

Now the way that things come over to me is that agents will not respond because we are not ready to buy yet. Well, there is one way around that as I stated yesterday and that would be to tell agents that we are ready to buy – but as stated previously, I am not prepared to do that – I do believe in fairness.

 

There was a programme on UK television recently, the 10 worst and the 10 best places to live and they showed you what you would get for the price of an average house (£180k). In some places you could buy a whole block whilst in others you could only buy a very small flat. I know from experience within the UK that there are regions where for x amount of money I can buy a house, and it might seem OK on paper but the area in which those properties are is not acceptable. Therefore, it is a question of ‘location, location, location’. Therefore, under the system whereby we do not know the type of location of properties within our price range when we do go to buy, an agent is going to spend time to take us to visit properties which, as stated, on paper sound fine yet when we actually see them if they are not in an acceptable location then it will be back to the drawing board. The result, the agent will have wasted their time and we will be back to finding another suitable area.

 

Finally, Kayjay thanks for your experience. I can see some people turning to bloody mindedness – if you waste my time I will waste your time. I wonder if the French agents try to cut the UK agents out therefore they want you over there before any form of details is forthcoming. I think the other unforgivable thing is showing you properties that do not meet your criteria – presume they do not have anything that meets it but think that they can sucker you into buying something. Today, I have been speaking to a colleague who has bought in France who says her agent as marvellous. Brings to mind that Basil Fawlty line ‘a satisfied customer – we will have him stuffed’.

 

Also is there an equivalent of the UKs ‘www.upmystreet.co.uk’ where you can find various information about specific areas (postcode based) that details amongst other things crime rates?

 

Sorry that this has been a long reply.

[Alexis]

Who exactly do you mean when you talk of agents?

On the UK side, do you mean estate agents?

Here in France, are you talking about agents immobiliers or Notaires? 

I'm afraid you lost me in the middle paragraphs but I think that you are still confusing the English Way with the French Way.

Here is a site to while away the hours..."Oh no, they cry, not again!"

www.immonot.com

You won't need to leave your armchair

[Kayjay<P> <P><P>"Passer sa vie à lutter contre la connerie est le meilleur procédé pour mourir dépuisement."<P>]

Ah, yes - immonot!  I can never decide if it gets its name from the site's lack of speed or because all the good ones were "sold yesterday, désolé....but I do happen to have.."!!

[Alexis]

I have to disagree with you there.  In my area, when I have been nosing out the price, I have found them very up to date indeed and swiftly removed when sold.

Of course, this doesn't mean you receive a reply from the Notaire.  Luckily, I can just pop in.

[P]

Alexis, I have no problem with 'getting out of my armchair' - we have a trip booked for October and from that will arrange others early next year.

The Internet is a wonderful research medium but one that needs to be used in conjunction with other mediums.

As for 'agents' I mean anyone advertising properties for sale.

As for the French way, I assume that you include the lack of customer focus - you do it our way and that is it. I suppose at the commision rates they do not have to sell many to make a living, the problem comes when the market is very flat, and from some of the postings the French market seems to be in decline. In the UK a wonderful example of a company who did it their way and did not change is M&S. Look at the problems they are having trying to regain market share.

I personally will have little faith in whoever is selling property if they are not cutomer focussed and I am sure that some will be, even if only a small minority.

But, as I was trying to say in my postings, it is not just price but location. The right price but located next to the abbattoir, sewage farm (I know there are a lot of septic tanks and not many of these), main highway etc means that if this is what you can get for the price then it will be the wrong location for us, hence th improtance on not just looking at the area but the locations.

[Ron Avery]

P

From your postings you appear to have little idea about France as a country and its regions, it ain't like the UK where all the houses are the same in an area so you choose your style of house and then an area, you choose the area first, THEN look for houses, there is so much variety in every hamlet, village and town.

Please get it through your head that the French are not going to E mail you the location of houses over the internet, they do not even put them in their windows. If that is not customer focussed, well tough that is the way it is As has been explained infinitum in this thread, that is the French system, whether you like it or not.  They are protecting their income by not disclosing details until you give them a signed statement that you are not going to do a deal behind their back with the owner.

Why don't you wait until you get here and have looked at some areas and properties before making sweeping statements about the lack of customer focus here. When you have spent a couple of days with a French based agent who has driven you 200 kms each day at their expense and bought you lunch and drinks on the way, then give us your views on customer focus and making loads of money from few sales. 

On a wider view if you are looking for high levels of customer service and focus, then you are moving to the wrong country

[Russethouse]

Something I read on another forum reminded me of this thread - apparently some enlightened French agencies realise that English purchasers are 'quite' likely to drive past a property and go back to the agent to arrange a viewing etc however, they are used to dealing with the French, who once they have seen the property are more likely just to arange a deal direct with the vendor, thus depriving the agent of their living.

Its a cultural thing

[P]

May I firstly say I regret starting this thread.

 

It started, if you look at my original posting, complaining that an ‘agent’ did not return my email. The reason for this was that previously, an agent had posted complaining that clients did not return his email.

 

I have learnt about the French system but, to go back to my original posting, it was about one side treating the other side as they would like to be treated.

 

Ron, well the UK is not comprised of all the same type of housing in a given area – yes it may be true it towns etc but you can certainly get some differences away from the towns – try looking at the Highlands of Scotland. I also appreciate that the population density is far lower etc.

 

Back to the subject of my original email to an agent. It was one of these sites whereby there was scant info on the properties and it stated ‘click on the email button to receive further details’ which I did for several and out of courtesy stated why I was asking for the details and received nothing in return – no details (which would have just been fuller details that some of the other websites carry) or just a note saying ‘we cannot give you these until you are ready to buy’.

 

I was also interested Kayjays comments of being shown properties that do not meet the criteria.

 

'Russethouse' interested in the enlightened agencies and also appreciate that with the current system that they will not want to be cut out of deals.

 

Anyway, thanks for all your comments etc and I promise I will not post on this matter anymore.

 

[Kayjay<P> <P><P>"Passer sa vie à lutter contre la connerie est le meilleur procédé pour mourir dépuisement."<P>]

P, it's not really my place to apologize on anyone else's behalf but may I say that I, for one, regret the tone of some of the postings aimed at you here?  If this is to be a forum where people may speak freely and present their view-points honestly and openly, then surely it behoves the rest of us to treat them with a modicum of respect, whether or not we agree with their views or the sentiments or reasoning which we fancy we can detect behind them?

To those who feel that you are not "French" enough in your attitudes, may I just remind them of an old French maxim:  "Toujours la politesse..."

Cordialement

[Miki]

".....To those who feel that you are not "French" enough in your attitudes, may I just remind them of an old French maxim: "Toujours la politesse..."

Trust the crafty old French to come up with a phrase to cover their backs then !!

I agree they can often be polite but I can also often see more rudeness than politeness in everyday life... all depends where one works and lives I guess !!

[Russethouse]

Don't forget too that many agents (possibly all)have experienced clients who buy something so different from their original spec that you just wouldn't believe it - that is often the reason you are sent or taken to 'houses' that don't fit your preferences - they are just covering the bases.

[IAN_S]

P

I don't regret you starting this thread at all, it made amazing reading for one who bought a house here (11) through a web site run by local Brits for a French agency 4 years ago, in 30 minutes.

No survey, moved a year later, did a lot of decoration but no major work apart from bathroom/kitchen stuff, and I have been blissfully happy ever since! Wife ditto .

A crazy way to buy property you will say, but it worked for us.