Help/Advice after collision in my hire car (Up date!!)

[Jacqui Too]

Hi I would like help/advice from anyone after my hire car was hit by another car in the hire car park at Bergerac airport yesterday.

Long story sorry!! [:)]

I was returning to the airport in our Hertz hire car after a week at our house with my daughter and her 4 month old baby, I entered the hire-car car park I was looking for a parking space (traveling at walking pace) when we suddenly felt a huge jolt/bang, (I thought I had run over some unseen object!!) I stopped jumped out to find we had been hit by another car that was reversing out of a parking space on the right hand side of my car (passenger side) the driver had got out and I told him that he had hit my car, he denied it and said it was my fault and that I should have looked were I was going!!!!! he said " this is France and you  should look were you are going" " I have lived here many years and its the law"!! he got angry and said 'did I want to call the police' as it was my fault, I was very distressed and told him that no he had hit my car! come look at the damage which was to my rear offside wheel-arch, at this I told him that we were due to check-in in five minutes, I started to get upset as we were about to miss our flight. He came over to my car and saw the damage and at that point he did concede that it 'might' be his fault, time was running out to drop of our bags at 40 mins to take off, he agreed to give me his name, phone number, and reg number (he wrote it down on a piece of my paper) and he asked when was I back in France and that we could sort it out then!! (I dont think he knew it was a hire car!!) I was at this time quite confused and was so worried that we were going to miss our flight I (stupidly) accepted this and he left.

We then had to unload our luggage, pram, baby, box up our baby car seat which my daughter loaded on a trolley and pushed both trolley and pram/baby over to the baggage check-in, I mean time ran to the Hertz cabin and tried to explain what had happened, they asked if I had the accident declaration form!! and had he signed it! I said no I had not done that in my panic but here are his details, she immediately phoned him and to cut an even longer story short  told him to return to the Hertz cabin that day to sign the accident report or she would call the police/ gendarmes, by this time I was almost in tears as I knew the baggage check in had closed, eventually I left the office and ran over to the check in were my daughter was talking to an airport official who explained that it was to late for the bags and car seat to be booked in but that we still could go!! we could not accept that as we would lose our car seat/ luggage and be left at Liverpool airport with no way to transport a 4 month old baby, We had to resign our selves to book another flight!

Luckily we were able to get another flight to UK with Flybe in 3 hours to Birmingham, we took it and paid €251

Now here is were I need your help/advice: Hertz have taken the excess fee of €600 which in time I should get back when the the other driver's insurance cough up so I hope that should be straight forward!! but I cannot claim our new flight expenses from our holiday insurance (natwest Advantage gold) who apparently squirmed out of paying because I was not in my own car!!!, what they said was I was to claim against the others car's insurance company, which I dont know the details of! how can I go about finding this out? I do have his registration number and name and phone number, but I would be reluctant to call him (long story) where else could/should I try to get these detail so I can make a claim?

By the way we had had a super holiday, more posts to come regarding that!

Thank you

[Pierre ZFP]

Have you tried to contact Hertz at Bergerac?  I bet they have all the details.

[Clarkkent]

[quote user="Jacqui Too "]

... but I cannot claim our new flight expenses from our holiday insurance (natwest Advantage gold) who apparently squirmed out of paying because I was not in my own car!!!,

[/quote]

Insurance companies will try to squirm out of any liability. Have you checked the policy details? I would challenge your insurers over this, if necessary contacting the ombudsman service.

[Anton Redman]

Just a thought is there CCT coverage of the car park ?

[Jacqui Too]

[quote user="Pierre ZFP"]Have you tried to contact Hertz at Bergerac?  I bet they have all the details.[/quote]

Hmmm yes I did think of that and maybe that is the best way forward for now, as it only happened yesterday, I have not got my best thinking head on!. I have this morning phoned Hertz UK and asked some questions, they were helpful but were not able to tell me anything about the 'progress' as the case has not yet been filed up for them to make a comment and I was asked to phone in again on Monday.

I will wait until after that conversation before I contact Bergerac airport office

[Jacqui Too]

[quote user="Clarkkent"][quote user="Jacqui Too "]

... but I cannot claim our new flight expenses from our holiday insurance (natwest Advantage gold) who apparently squirmed out of paying because I was not in my own car!!!,

[/quote] Insurance companies will try to squirm out of any liability. Have you checked the policy details? I would challenge your insurers over this, if necessary contacting the ombudsman service.[/quote]

Hi

They said that if I was in my own car I could claim! but not a hire car! I have had an Advantage Gold account with Natwest since they started many many years ago paying £6 per month now I pay £12 per month, I have never used any of the 'Advantages' except the Travel insurance and now it seems they find a loophole.

I still insisted that they send me a claim form (which they said would be rejected!) and that if I was not satisfied with their decision I could take it to the insurance ombudsman.

I think I may retink my Advantage Gold account position after this! [:@]

[AnOther]

Sorry to hear of your mishap Jacqui, a rotten way to end a holiday !

I don't think I would pin too many hopes on Hertz chasing the other

driver on your behalf, they have no need to as they already have your money to put right the damage to their car which ultimately is all they are concerned about. You may find too that in your hire agreement it will state that it is your

responsibility to fill it in the Constat and have it signed at the scene and by not doing so you have broken the agreement, another excuse for them to hang you out to dry.

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for your deposit back either. There will probably have been an excess on the rental and I can well

imagine that after adding on the cost of repairing the damaged wing, plus charges for loss of use, transport back and forth, the drivers lunch, and anything else they can think of, there will be precious little change out of €600 so I wouldn't bank on getting much back, if anything.

Even

then you can be pretty sure it will take a long time and involve some

determination on your part. A German friend had a very minor scrape in

UK, an extremely minor scuff on the bumper which in all probability they didn't

even have repaired and which you or I would have touched up in 1/2 hour

with a £4.99 can of paint from Halfords, but it was over 12 months before he got something like £100 out of

his £500 deposit back, and he had to fight them every inch of the way for that too.

Frankly I think your only slim chance to recover anything would be to pursue the other driver privately but again, without a Constat or clear and unambiguous evidence of fault or an admission, it's going to an uphill battle. Without a Constat I think accidents are automatically apportioned 50/50 and of course it could easily cost you more than €600 to even begin an action against someone else.

Sorry to paint a bleak picture and I sincerely hope it goes better for you but I fear it won't.

Not a criticism but as a general observation this sort of incident emphasises the desirability and advisability of arriving at the airport

with plenty of time in hand and not 10 or 20 minutes before the 'drop

dead' time.

For the future you might think about taking out a separate insurance such as Insurance4carhire

[Renaud]

Next visit to Bergerac you could try Buggs car hire. I had a problem and the Buggs people couldn't have been more helpful.

When one has a problem it is helpful to be speaking in English. Sad but true.

[Jacqui Too]

[quote user="AnOther"]Sorry to hear of your mishap Jacqui, a rotten way to end a holiday !

.......... You may find too that in your hire agreement it will state that it is your responsibility to fill it in the Constat and have it signed at the scene and by not doing so you have broken the agreement, another excuse for them to hang you out to dry..........[/quote]

Thanks for your post, I did fill in the form at the time and I felt that the ladies in the Hertz cabin were extremely concerned for me and seemed very genuine that Hertz would follow this up as the damage would be well in excess of my CDW input of €600, also I have been in touch with UK Hertz who hopefully will help push my case. Maybe I am too naive and my hopes are in vain, but I feel I must believe them that they will do as they say and return my money!

They strongly emphasised that it was against the law to leave the scene of a collision and not fill in the form and that they would get the Gendarmes involved if he did not return to fill in the form

[quote user="AnOther"] Sorry to paint a bleak picture and I sincerely hope it goes better for you but I fear it won't. [/quote][:(][:'(]

On the holiday travel insurance claim for the extra travel costs encountered I intend to pursue that as vigorously as possible, at least that will be conducted in English!!

I will certainly phone Bergerac on monday to try and find out if he return that day or what they did if he did not.

This whole incident has cost me over €870, more than it cost for the whole trip!

[Baz]

Two possible points. I always take out car hire excess insurance with an independent company, far cheaper than using the car hire company policy and with a £600 excess charge it has to be worth it for peace of mind. The second point if you want CCTV evidence. request immediately as tapes are often reused after a very short time if no incidence is reported.

Baz

[kizpip]

Fingers crossed that Hertz at

Bergerac will by now have the other driver's insurance details. If you

manage to get them when you ring on Monday send a recorded delivery

letter to the insurers (quoting policy number, if possible) stating

that you hold their insured responsible for the accident. (also suggest

to them that the position of the damage on the vehicles would point to

the true facts, ie: that the accident was caused by him).

Set

out details of all your out-of-pocket expenses incurred as a direct

result of the accident (including a hypothetical claim for any deposit

which is not ultimately returned to you by Hertz).

Ask them to

investigate the claim and reply within, say, 30 days, at which point

you will take legal advice in the absence of a reply.

As for the

Natwest Advantage insurance, ask them to specify under which clause of

the contract they are repudiating your claim, just so that you can

verify they are within their rights to reject your claim against them.

Secondly, ask them if you are entitled to make a claim for legal advice

under Section M of their policy (I've looked at the policy terms &

conditions online).

Obviously, you can't make a claim against

both, but in the event of problems against the other driver (unlikely, provided he has valid insurance)

it's worth pursuing Advantage a little further to make sure they're

within their rights to refuse your claim against them.

That's what I'd do anyway . . .

Good luck.

[Jacqui Too]

Thank you Kizpip for your valued advice which I will follow when I make contact with Hertz UK and Hertz Bergerac.

I am aware that I cannot claim for the same items with two insurers, I was going to try the CDW €600 from the drivers insurers and my extra flights from my travel insurance thought Natwest Advantage Gold cover., but if the drivers insurance claim looks likely to succeed I may try for all my expenses from them. I say that because from  the French telephone call by the Hertz lady at Bergerac to the phone number the driver gave me that there might be some difficulty! she first asked if he were M. R..... which he replied 'yes', she then went on to say that he was responsible for the collision in the car park when he then said that he had let a friend borrow his car! he then said he was not M. R... to which she said " are you M. R.. or not, oui ou non" then he appeared not to understand French so she spoke in English for a few moments then reverted back to French!! She made it quite clear that if he did not return that day that she would inform the Gendarmes that he had refused to sign the form and left the scene. So not straight forward at all !!! I gave her a good description of him as he was a very unusual looking!! so that she would know if the wrong person turned up, I think he really Pi**ed her off, which made her more determined to track him down.

After we had missed our flight and we had rearrange a new one I went back to the Hertz cabin to chat about what had happened, and thats why I think they were genuinely wanting to help me.

Fingers crossed

Thank you everyone for all your advice

PS by the way we arrived at 9.15 for a 10.20 flight, the fact that the bags were in my name and I was unable to check them in in time even though my daughter was there with them. 

[Owens88]

Good luck

 

I also have relied on the natwest insurance over many years.

AFAIK you are covered for missed flights as long as the cause IS NOT your own car.

 

John

[AnOther]

[quote user="Jacqui Too "]Thanks for your post, I did fill in the form

at the time.........They strongly emphasised

that it was against the law to leave the scene of a collision and not

fill in the form and that they would get the Gendarmes involved if he

did not return to fill in the form[/quote]Actually Jacqui, according to your original post you

didn't, at least not on the spot as it's supposed to be. Filling it in afterwards in the Hertz office

is just a way of giving your side of the story and counts for little

unless or until it is signed by both parties when it becomes a legally

binding document which you cannot later dispute.

AFAIK, and please somebody do correct me if I'm mistaken, a Constat, or European Accident Form as it known in UK, is a convenience and there is no legal requirement to carry one, fill it in, or sign it if another driver produces one. You'd like to think that the Hertz staff know the law but then so would you of insurance companies yet we all know that in many many instances they don't. Even the Gendarmes don't always, insisting sometimes that you have to exchange your UK licence within 1 year for instance.

At any rate, even if the other driver does return to fill in his side and sign it, unless he admits responsibility or you do find some CCTV or other evidence, it still won't necessarily exonerate you. He's already proved himself less than honourable because if he were he would have filled in the Constat admitting responsibility. Now, a couple of days later when he's had time to think, he could counter accuse you of all sorts of things, speeding in the car park because you were late for your flight for instance. I'm not suggesting for one moment that you were of course but the fact that you actually did miss your flight could add creedence to such a story.

Once again Jacqui, I'm truly sorry to for the negativity and I sincerely hope it does turn out OK for you in the end......but !

Thinking aside, you are always told by insurers to never admit liability, even if you are blatantly at fault, yet by honestly filling in a Constat that could be exactly what you are doing so where does that leave you I wonder [:'(]

One slightly puzzling point which has just ocurred to me. What was this other driver doing in the Hire car car park, was his a hire car too I wonder and was there any damage to it ?

[gosub]

The other driver had no right  to be in that car park, it is reserved for hire cars only, with no access allowed to the general public.

[lacote0_0]

[quote user="Jacqui Too "]

I am aware that I cannot claim for the same items with two insurers, I was going to try the CDW €600 from the drivers insurers and my extra flights from my travel insurance thought Natwest Advantage Gold cover., but if the drivers insurance claim looks likely to succeed I may try for all my expenses from them.

[/quote]

You can, and probably should, claim twice and leave it to the insurers as to how it is shared.

If it is liable Natwest may well reclaim from the other driver what it pays you under your policy.

[Jacqui Too]

Oh dear it doesn't look good for get my excess back [:(]

Although I was not panicking as such I was in a bit of a tizz and was not thinking straight, he tried to drive off and I called to my daughter ( who was seeing that her baby was OK) to get his Reg. number, he got back out of his car and came over to see the damage to our car and it was at that point I asked him to write down his details which he did, he asked when I was returning to France (because I had already told him I was flying home that day) and that we would sort it out then!

[quote user="AnOther"]
One slightly puzzling point which has just occurred to me. What was this other driver doing in the Hire car car park, was his a hire car too I wonder and was there any damage to it ?[/quote]

Yes exactly he should not have been in that car park! he was in an older estate car that definitely not a hire car. he was obviously trying to save on paying the parking fee at the public car park. Yes he did have a small amount of scratch damage to his rear driver side bumper, but on an old car probably would not repair it.

[AnOther]

Whilst the hire car car park is reserved I don't think there is anything stopping the public from entering it. I did it once when collecting friends who had hired a car for a trip up into Dordognshire then dropped it off because they didn't need it for their 2nd week with us. We both parked in there side by side whilst they decanted their luggage into my car and then I sat and waited whilst they handed in the paperwork etc. probably there for about 20 minutes or so. A couple of the hire company gofers were there and saw what we were doing and didn't say a word.

[kizpip]

[quote user="AnOther"]

At any rate, even if the other driver does return to fill in his side and sign it, unless he admits responsibility or you do find some CCTV or other evidence, it still won't necessarily exonerate you. He's already proved himself less than honourable because if he were he would have filled in the Constat admitting responsibility. Now, a couple of days later when he's had time to think, he could counter accuse you of all sorts of things, speeding in the car park because you were late for your flight for instance. I'm not suggesting for one moment that you were of course but the fact that you actually did miss your flight could add creedence to such a story.

Once again Jacqui, I'm truly sorry to for the negativity and I sincerely hope it does turn out OK for you in the end......but !

[/quote]

Personally I think it's a little early for such negativity, despite the other driver's lack of co-operation. The facts speak for themselves: an accident occurred involving these two vehicles and quite often an accident assessor can tell from the type of damage what actually took place. Jacqui has a witness (her daughter); the other driver doesn't. Notwithstanding that, it's her word against his so, at worst, the insurers would agree a 50/50 split.

You stick to your guns, Jacqui! (and you won't consider giving up at this stage, will you?)

If it turns out the man didn't return to the Hertz office with his insurance details, the police may well be able to give you this information by supplying them with his registration number. I do agree with AnOther that there's no requirement to sign the European Accident Form but (not verified) I think one is obliged to provide the other party with insurance details following an accident.

Forgot to mention that if you do end up writing a letter to his insurers, don't worry about writing it in French - English will do if that's easier for you. I remember reading some European insurance regulations which state that an insurance company is obliged to correspond in the language of the claimant, if he/she is a foreigner.

Do let us know what you find out from Hertz.

[AnOther]

The fact of the accident and the manner in which the damage was sustained is not in dispute and I think in the circumstances described all an accident assessor will likely be able to say is that the damage is consistent with the account given, he may give an opinion as to probable fault, but will not be able to prove it.

I absolutely agree you have to push it as far as you are able, I'm not suggesting otherwise as not only is there is a sizeable amount of money at stake but the question of justice being served too, so stick with it until such times as you run out of options, or it's going to cost more money to continue, but frankly I can't bring myself to see this going any way other than 50/50 in which case

Jacqui stands to lose out unless Lloyds come through for her and I wouldn't be holding my hopes too high on that one either but that's another topic.

Jacqui's daughter may well have witnessed what happened but she is about as far from being independent as you can get so I can't see her uncorroborated statement carrying any weight at all. No, the other driver didn't have a witness, but wouldn't it be a surprise if he suddenly turned up with someone who just 'happened' to have seen the incident and supported his side of the story !

Let's not lose perspective here either. As big a thing as it is for Jacqui and whatever her financial stake, at the end of the day what happened boils down to nothing more than a trivial, non injury, everyday incident - which remember also did NOT take place on a public road - the other driver has not driven off without stopping and they have exchanged some, if not all details. Listed that dispassionately just how interested do you think the Gendarmes are going to be in investigating or persuing it ?

The true cynic might also want to factor in that neither driver was French either [blink]

A tip [I]: along with the Constat and other documents I carry in both my cars I have a small disposable camera, bought them as kits actually from eBay for about £5, and they also contain a small tape measure, a pen and some notepaper. Most phones have a camera these days too so following an incident, and assuming no one is hurt and you still have your wits about you, photos should be the very first thing to get, and certainly BEFORE any vehicles are moved, unless of course it was definitely your fault [Www]

[Jacqui Too]

Just a quite update:

I have phoned Hertz UK who I booked the car with and spoke to on Friday and they assured me that they will be dealing with the incident and not Bergerac and they will request all the information from them and they are also sending me a letter (email) regarding the collision for me to accompany my Natwest travel insurance claim form which I received this morning.

So things are moving but I trust these things will take forever and I will have to be patient [:(]

Thanks all for your help

 

[AnOther]

[quote user="Jacqui Too "]they are also sending me a letter (email) regarding the collision for me to accompany my Natwest travel insurance claim form which I received this morning.[/quote]

I'd be wary of pursuing the same claim through two organisations simultaneously as it can only serve to complicate matters and further delay any settlement. Better to let the Hertz claim run it's course first. That said there may well be a question on their form about any other cover so you would have to declare the NW insurance, (sorry, I said Lloyds earlier), and when you have then you will not be able to separate them. Once they know there is other cover they will get into a bun fight about what proportion of the clain they are liabel for, if any !

Patience is indeed likely to be the watchword [blink]

[Jacqui Too]

[quote user="AnOther"]
I'd be wary of pursuing the same claim through two organisations simultaneously as it can only serve to complicate matters and further delay any settlement.
Patience is indeed likely to be the watchword [blink][/quote]

At the moment I am not claiming anything from the Hertz insurance, I just want my excess back! when they have sorted that its due, due to the fact that I was not to blame and therefore not liable to pay the excess.

The claim to Natwest travel insurance is for the extra expenses I incurred after we missed the flight which is what I thought travel insurance is for.

If my claim is rejected  I will then pursue trying to get my money from the other driver's insurance, but in the first instance they are separate issues.

[Jacqui Too]

Hi

Just a quick update for anyone interested!

I have now had confirmation from my Natwest travel insurance (Inter group insurance) that my claim has been approved and I will be getting my cheque for the full amount in the post within 10 days, I think originally I must have spoken to a right muppet that didn't know the policy!! so glad I didn't take the first 'no not insured' as true and still asked to a claim form!!

On the other 'Hertz' claim for my €600 back, its being dealt with and could take a long time I am told by Hertz UK customer services, as it looks like the two insurance companies will have to fight it out!!! So I am not holding me breath[:@]

[Stan Streason]

To be fair to Hertz I once had a collision in Nice, (not my fault) and of course they withheld my excess.  About 9 months later out of the blue they repaid it saying the other drivers insurance had settled.  A nice surprise because I had both written the amount off and forgotten all about it.