Help with accident

[SC]

One of our guests was loading his car through the offside rear door whilst it was in a marked parking bay parallel with and next to the roadway.

A postman driving on the road hit and badly damaged the door; fortunately missing our guest who was between the door and his car.

The postman was very apologetic as was his boss who arrived at the scene and took our guest to a garage and paid for a temporary repair so that the door could be made to close.

The postman's only comment on the constat was "I did not see the door was open".

Now we thought that this would be an open and shut case - if you'll excuse the pun, and the post's insurers would pay up. But having contacted them today and faxed them the constat and covering letter they say that -au contraire - they are going to claim from our guest's insurers.

Now our guest didn't have a green card, and his insurance company (before they knew that a claim would be made against them) refused point blank to help him with a claim against the other party.

Any helpful comments would be appreciated.

Steve

[Anton Redman II]

If you have a local insurance bureau which you use take your guest in to theiroffice and ask for their help

[SC]

Thank you for your suggestion. A couple of years ago that would have been possible, but now we are with an insurer that doesn't have a local office.

The guest's leaving tomorrow and we feel a bit sorry for him in his predicament. He'll be £1000 or so out of pocket.

Steve

[nomoss]

Why will he be £1000 out of pocket if they are going to claim against his insurance company? Surely his car's damage is covered by his insurance company, who will also deal with the claim being made against them for the post vehicle damage.

Or does he have only third party cover and no legal assistance?

He should make sure he reports the accident to the gendarmerie before he leaves.

[Pickles]

Is your guest from the UK? If so, then it might be best all around if he/she submits a claim to/through his/her own insurance company, making it quite clear that they believe the other party is at fault. Take pictures of the damage, in as great a detail as possible; certainly report it to the gendarmes, if only to get an incident number. If you did not see the incident yourself, but did see the immediate aftermath, provide a statement to that effect, as you can be a witness to the final state of the vehicles (eg the location and extent of damage, in case it is alleged that the dor was opened on to the post vehicle etc), the reg of the post vehicle that hit your guest's car, the identity given by the postman, etc. Then later, if the UK insurance company tries to hit your guest's NCD (probably on the grounds that they had not been able to gain restitution from La Poste), your guest has some ammunition to challenge that (in the UK, in English) on the grounds that the UK company is effectively accepting a "knock for knock" in circumstances which prejudice your guest.

I have had the conversation with my insurance company that goes "Excuse me, but I was under the impression that YOU were supposed to be representing ME and MY interests - not the other party's".

Regards

Pickles

[Will]

Before anybody can offer sensible advice, we would need to know more about the extent of European insurance cover your guest has. You said 'he has no green card' - a green card is not necessary for Europe (and certainly not France) though some insurers issue them. Even with one, the situation is far from clear cut.

Some insurers automatically give you the same cover in Europe as you have with your policy at home. Of these a few (like Saga) don't put a time limit on the European cover. Some (like Admiral and quite a few others) will automatically cover you in Europe, but the full cover reduces to legal minimum if you are in Europe for more than a specified limit - usually 90 days a year in total, or 30 days in any one trip. Many others will give you full cover in Europe, but you have to inform the insurer about your trip and, usually, pay an extra premium  for the extension of cover. Under European law, a policy issued in one member state has to give minimum legal cover in other member states, so even if the insurer doesn't automatically cover for Europe use and you omitted to inform them, your guest will be insured according to the law, but this would only be for third party risks, despite having full cover at home.

Incidentally, there are still a few insurers that will charge for a 'green card' in order to extend your UK policy to give legal minimum cover in Europe. They are trying it on - not only is this level of cover automatic, a green card is not legally required in the EEA countries.

[JeanS]

I hope his insurers are not Admiral. I had an accident which was not my fault - a motorbike crashed into the back of me when I was stationary waiting to turn left.

I have full insurance with European cover, evenso the insurance co. were not at all helpful. They refuse to help me with my expenses ( hire car etc) and have taken three weeks to finally agree the repair costs and to give approval to the garage to go ahead and make the repairs.

[AnOther]

Actually 3 weeks is not untypical of the time it can take to actually get things moving and are you sure that your policy actually covered you for a replacement car in the circumstances, it's not an automatic given that every policy does. If it is specified and you have observed any rules, informing them of the trip perhaps being one, then I can't see on what grounds they would refuse to pay.

Back to the case in hand, crucially has the postie ticked any of the boxes on the Constat to admit that it was his fault as without that I believe all accidents are dealt with on a 50/50 basis. I think it would come under 8,9 or 11 according to the English version.

There is a handy write about filling in the Constat here along with an English version of a Constat for comparison if your guest's is a French one.

http://www.insurance.fr/responsible.html

http://www.insurance.fr/files/Accident_Form.pdf

[nomoss]

I would add a suggestion to take lots of photographs of the position of all vehicles, any tyre marks, from near and further away, and closeups of damage to all vehicles.

This made all the difference when I was hit almost head-on, after I had come to a stop, angled part way into a field entrance - nowhere else to go - by a young gentlemen in a big hurry in a narrow lane in Cornwall. The insurance companies were apparently in the habit of settling 50/50 in these circumstances, but my pictures made a huge difference. I was fully compensated and did not lose my NCB.

 

[kizpip]

[quote user="JeanS"]I hope his insurers are not Admiral. I had an accident which was not my fault - a motorbike crashed into the back of me when I was stationary waiting to turn left.

I have full insurance with European cover, evenso the insurance co. were not at all helpful. They refuse to help me with my expenses ( hire car etc) and have taken three weeks to finally agree the repair costs and to give approval to the garage to go ahead and make the repairs.[/quote]

[quote user="AnOther"]Actually 3 weeks is not untypical of the time it

can take to actually get things moving and are you sure that your policy

actually covered you for a replacement car in the circumstances, it's

not an automatic given that every policy does. If it is specified and

you have observed any rules, informing them of the trip perhaps being

one, then I can't see on what grounds they would refuse to pay.

[/quote]

AnOther is right Jean, but if your own policy doesn't cover you, there's nothing stopping you from trying to recover "reasonably incurred" uninsured losses direct from the biker's insurers. Write to them direct detailing all out-of-pocket expenses which your own insurers refuse to pay.

[SC]

Thanks for all your comments, there's some food for thought and I'll point our guest in this thread's direction when he returns to his home.

I wasn't involved until the evening after the accident so photos, and witness statements (with the exception of other passengers) weren't taken at the time . In our guest's defence the postman and his boss acted in a way that appeared he/they accepted responsibility (see OP).

The postman crossed only box 8 on the constat - "heurtait à l'arriére en roulant dans le même sense et sur une même file ". I believe he should have also crossed "roulait dans le même sense et sur une file différante"- but he didn't.

When someone ticked this box having driven into the back of our car a few years ago (both french insurers) there was no argument from his insurer that it was their drivers fault.

Nomoss, Will, in our guest's case, no green card meant no comprehensive insurance in France. his company is Churchill (underwritten by AXA), Laposte's insurer is AXA.........

Pickles, I'll make sure that our guest takes on board what you say.

Steve

[allanb]

[quote user="Sc"]Nomoss, Will, in our guest's case, no green card meant no comprehensive insurance in France...[/quote]I know I am repeating what has been said many times before, but:

The green card has nothing, nothing whatever, to do with any insurance coverage except the legal minimum.  To anyone who doubts this: please read what it says on the green card.  Read it, read it.

If your guest had accidental damage insurance, extended to Europe, he has a valid claim against his insurer.  Conversely, if he didn't, the green card wouldn't do anything to help him.  

[AnOther]

The form is necessarily brief but if the postie has ticked box 8 then that, coupled with the sketch and description, should be adequate proof of fault. The only thing which should be ticked on the other side is 1.

allanb is correct (calm down now [;-)]) however as I said earlier if the T&C's of your guests insurance require him to inform them that he is taking the car abroad and he didn't then they could legitimately refute a claim. If he has a legal benefits policy attached to his car insurance he might be able to pursue his uninsured losses via that but I wouldn't be holding my breath for an early payout.

[Will]

The standard Churchill policy document states that cover outside the UK is limited to the legal minimum, unless agreed beforehand and (probably) an extra premium paid. It's not the clearest document in the world, but not too difficult to work that out.

So as the OP's guest had not arranged extra cover (or 'no green card' as the OP says), damage to own vehicle is not covered, and the insured will have to seek recompense himself from the other party, for which he may or (probably) may not get any assistance from his own insurer.

Similarly, in response to another point, a replacement car is often provided only if you use a repairer nominated by your insurer (the repairer generally provides the car), or unless a hire car is agreed with the insurer. As not many UK insurers will have approved repairers in France, draw your own conclusion.

Probably a salutary lesson there for anybody with British insurance to read the small print very carefully. Yes, your policy may give you cover for Europe - but exactly how much cover?

[allanb]

[quote user="Will"]... and the insured will have to seek recompense himself from the other party, for which he may or (probably) may not get any assistance from his own insurer.[/quote]Fortunately I haven't (yet?) been in this situation, but isn't this one of the purposes of the various national Motor Insurance Bureaux?  Here is a statement from an EU information website:

If you are the victim of a car accident in another country, you will be indemnified in accordance with the liability and compensation rules in force in that country and not with those in your country of habitual residence.

You have several choices as to where to submit your claim for compensation:

    ▪    to the foreign insurer of the party liable; or

    ▪    to the green card bureau of the country in which the accident occurred; or

    ▪    to the claims agent appointed to represent the foreign insurer of the party liable in your country of residence. This option gives you the advantage of settling the claim in your own language.

In all these cases, you must be given a reply to all the points made in your claim within three months, stating the reasons. If the insurer of the party liable has no claims agent in your country or you have not received a reply, stating the reasons, within three months of your request, you have the right to contact the national compensation body in your country. The compensation body has to take action and provide you with a reply and reasons within two months.

This was found here:

http://ec.europa.eu/youreurope/nav/en/citizens/living/car/insurance/index_en.html

If it means what it says, it looks like a feasible course of action for anyone who has suffered uninsured damage caused by another driver. 

[Will]

Although those procedures may provide some assistance, this isn't a situation where a motor insurance bureau would get involved. The basic fact in this case is that the damage to the guest's own vehicle is not covered by his own insurance. It would be exactly the same if he had third party cover in UK, i.e. it would be down to him to seek compensation from the other party.

The bureaux exist to compensate you if the other party is not insured - in this case La Poste will obviously have insurance cover for their vehicles, so the guest has to make a claim against La Poste, with the option of using a UK-based claims handler representing La Poste's insurer, if such an agent exists - as this appears to be AXA, which is represented in UK, then that should be the case. The bureau will only get involved if there is no such agent or approaches to the insurer in France elicit no response after three months.

[allanb]

Will: thank you. 

Just for interest (though it doesn't apply in this case): will the M.I.B. get involved if the other party may be insured but you can't find him - e.g. if he hits you and drives off without stopping, or if you go to your car and find it damaged?  It sounds as though they will.

[Will]

I don't know the answer, but I suspect the national insurance database might come into play in such cases. As failure to stop or to report an accident is a criminal offence then the police should help too, but it doesn't seem to be a high priority for them.

[AnOther]

The MIB are the insurer of last resort meaning that all other possible avenues of recompence would have to be exhausted before they would step up to the plate.

http://www.mib.org.uk/Frequently+Asked+Questions/en/Default.htm

[Richard51]

Never rely on an admission of liability at the scene.  Virtually the same thing happened to me a few weeks ago (but the other way around).  I was driving along a narrow street (two cars wide but with vehicles parked bumper to bumper so only space for one car to pass.)  One of the drivers opened her door without looking  and with no time / distance for me to stop and no space to swerve.  She admitted liability at the scene - said she opened the door without looking, apologised profusely etc.  When the details went to the insurance companies she changed her story completely - said her door had been open for a while and that I had driven into her. The insurance company went with her story. (Apparently they would only pay out for a driver in my situation (where liability is disputed), if the damage from the opening door is to the side panel(s) of the other vehicle - i.e. the door was opened as the vehicle was actually passing.  No allowance is made for opening a door onto an oncoming / approaching vehicle with insufficient distance to stop.  Hence, even though the accident was not my fault, I have had to take the hit and will lose my NCB.  To say I'm p***d off is an under statement.

As an aside my insurance company said it is common practice for claimants to lie when describing the circumstances of the accident.  Their estimate was that at least 50% of descriptions are deliberately inaccurate and that, more and more, they are having to rely on scene of accident position and location of damage as a means of settling claims.

Mrs R51

[AnOther]

Which is why I always carry an accident kit comprising a camera (although I usually have my iPhone with me anyway), a tape measure, a notepad and pencil, and Constats, both French and English, and why it's crucial to get the other driver to tick one of the boxes on the Constat without which, unless you have incontovertable evidence of the facts, it comes down to 'he said she said'.

[quote user="Richard51"]As an aside my insurance company said it is common practice for claimants to lie when describing the circumstances of the accident[/quote]That's shocking, whoever would have believed such a thing [Www]

 

[SC]

Thanks again. It does seem that our guest is being treated as Mrs R was, but I was under the impression that the signed constat could't be changed.

We have received an e-mail from LaPoste today confirming their decision, and it leaves me to believe that we (on our guest's behalf) have been passed to LaPoste rather than the insurer, although we phoned the insurer in the first instance.

Steve

[SC]

As a follow up to this affair, our gendarme 'holiday' neighbour has been at his holiday home today cutting the grass so I showed him the constat and asked him what he thought. He was clear that it was the fault of the postman due to his inattention. We've advised our guest of this and sent him a link to this thread with advice to read your comments thouroughly. Thanks!

Steve

[Swissie]

I would have thought that if the door was open onto the road - then your friend would be responsible for any damages- as he was causing the obstruction?

Please correct me if I'm wrong. Surely he should have been loading from the other side? He was very lucky not to be seriously hurt - or indeed the postman or any cyclist that might have been passing by!

[AnOther]

I disagree.

Firstly, loading from the other side may not have been possible, parked by a wall or a hedge for instance.

Secondly, if the obstruction was already there then the postie (and your notional passing cyclist) had a duty to avoid it. If the door had been opened into their path then that's an entirely different matter but that is not what occurred.

Remember that the postie has admitted it was his fault and ticked and signed the Constat to that effect and that is the whole point of the Constant, a binding agreement of the facts which, if you don't agree with, you don't sign.