Roundabouts and Accidents

[Georgina]

Can someone help me here. I speak good French but recently had an accident on a roundabout where I know there is no priority a droit (although I was told I did not). I was already on the roundabout in the outside lane turning right, when a car approached at a speed from the inside lane almost like it was heading for me and drove into my lane (the outside lane) with no indications just turned into my lane and hit me. As I saw it approaching from the inside lane, I slowed down thinking they would stop but they did not they skidded right into me even though if they had continued in their lane they were they would not have hit anyone. Basically changing lanes caused her to hit me. I remember being hit at least three seconds after I had already entered the roundbout. I don't think the other car was visible as it was coming from the opposite direction at the time I entered. I only recall the fact that even though the car could have avoided me by staying in lane, it just was like it had lost control and headed for me. The problem I have is there were no witness. I asked for witnesses but as it was a roundabout nobody wanted to stop, the other driver (french) did not ask anyone. Basically I know that she was on the roundabout before me but was not visible as she was far enough away at the time I entered. But if the rule here is that the person on the roundabout has priiorty, does that give that person on the roundabout the right to drive into someone going slower than them. The impact was because she actually admitted skidding into me and hit me in the middle of the two passenger doors on the left. I was shouted as as I was English and did not know how to use the roundabouts here (huh). If the person who is on the r/a has the right to drive like a maniac and hit anyone in their path, what can you do? Is that rule just that? That anyone on the roundabout first can just hit anyone and be in the right? This is what they were almost saying. She said I cut in front of her but the fact is she lost control and skidded into me by changing lanes as it was very wet. HELP PS been in France 6 years and driven all over the world for 25 years sans accident!! I know it would be a clear cut thing if I was in England, but you worry that because you are not French, you will be just told you don't understand the rules and are not thought to whatever your French.

[woolybanana]

A few months ago I wandered into the local police station and asked them what they thought the rules were and it transpired they are the same as UK, so dont allow yourself to be bullied.

[Georgina]

Yes that is what I thought. The other person called the police and they were not interested. So that was like being in England too haha

[woolybanana]

She called the police to try and bully yoiu into admitting responsibility and keeping her no claims bonus. No doubt she has a record.

[Etoile]

The earlier advice is good: do not be bullied. Many French motorists tear around the place irrespective of the conditions and one only has to examine the state of the cars in the local supermarket car park to see that on the whole they take little pride in them.

Of course what you do from here depends on whether you want to make a claim or not. Whether to can depends initially on having the other driver's details. If you do not then I would leave the whole thing alone and not admit to anything.

I love living here but the French urgently need to sort out this whole thing of rights of way. I frequently drive to a friend's house some 20km away. There are two routes: One is sensible with give way markings for minor roads onto the main road, while the other is a mix of this and 'give way to the right' nonsense. One could argue all night about UK vs. France in this, but anyone with half a brain would agree that consistency is essential. There is none in France.

[Chancer]

Were you in the course of exitting the rond point and was there more than one lane leading off the exit? It could have some bearing on her claim.

Did you both fill in a constat amiable?

I mut say its pretty bad luck that you should come across a rare French driver that uses the inside lane to turn left on a rond point [;-)]

[pachapapa]

What about the constat d'accident?

http://www.assurance-guide.com/vehicule/constat-amiable.pdf

[Georgina]

[quote user="Etoile"]The earlier advice is good: do not be bullied. Many French motorists tear around the place irrespective of the conditions and one only has to examine the state of the cars in the local supermarket car park to see that on the whole they take little pride in them.

Of course what you do from here depends on whether you want to make a claim or not. Whether to can depends initially on having the other driver's details. If you do not then I would leave the whole thing alone and not admit to anything.

I love living here but the French urgently need to sort out this whole thing of rights of way. I frequently drive to a friend's house some 20km away. There are two routes: One is sensible with give way markings for minor roads onto the main road, while the other is a mix of this and 'give way to the right' nonsense. One could argue all night about UK vs. France in this, but anyone with half a brain would agree that consistency is essential. There is none in France.[/quote]

Yeh I want to make a claim my car is wrecked. And yes the French drive round roundabouts like what is going on man!!

[Georgina]

[quote user="Chancer"]

Were you in the course of exitting the rond point and was there more than one lane leading off the exit? It could have some bearing on her claim.

Did you both fill in a constat amiable?

I mut say its pretty bad luck that you should come across a rare French driver that uses the inside lane to turn left on a rond point [;-)]

[/quote]

Hi, I was in the outside lane turning right, she was in the inside lane and then changed and charged into me without indication, there were four exits. Yes they normally go all the way round the roundabout in the outside lane LOL

[idun]

This says it all really.

http://www.lepost.fr/article/2010/07/29/2168588_mode-d-emploi-comment-prendre-un-giratoire-article-destines-aux-chauffards-croises-quotidiennement-sur-la-route.html

It is as it says, the person in the left hand lane has to give way to the people on the right hand lane on a roundabout.

I think that the law in general is confusing to most people, not only about when to indicate but where to position themselves on a roundabout too, it never surprises me that they go all the way round in the outside lane and don't indicate.

Did you do a constat?

I remember when there was one roundabout in the dept I lived in and none in the two other depts that I used to frequent the most. Frightening was not in it, it was terrifying when I first drove onto that 'one' roundabout.

[Chancer]

[quote user="idun"] I think that the law in general is confusing to most people, not only about when to indicate but where to position themselves on a roundabout too, it never surprises me that they go all the way round in the outside lane and don't indicate.[/quote]

And the article encourages them to do so:   Nota2 : il n’est pas obligatoire d’aller sur la voie de gauche pour tourner à gauche, c’est seulement un usage : je peux tout à fait rester sur la voie de droite.

Whilst I dont think la code de la route says this I am sure it is correct to say it is not obligatory, it goes a long way to explaining why auto ecoles teach their pupils this way, - they dont want their vehicles pranged!

The problem is most French people especially after their education are brainwashed into believing everything they are told without questionng or thinking for themselves if they are told by someone in authority, the authority may indeed only be that that person does the job be it drivng instructor or plumber or sales assistant and may have once done a formation way back in the depths of time.

I no longer question the driving habits of my French friends, I just close my eyes and pray when I am a passenger, they all insist that it is the law that you must use the outside lane at all times as that was how they were taught, they have come up with some depserate explanations when I ask them why rond points are built with an inside lane.

The hardest thing is to get them out of this habit in England, they just cant seem to comprehend that things happen differently, its all the fou English drivers that are at fault, then I hit on the idea of telling them it was against the law and carried one of the highest penalties €100 to be paid straight away at the roadside or theier vehicle confiscated, they immediately understand and comply [:D]

[Georgina]

Thanks everyone for your replies it really helps when these matters are so frustrating, it is terrible to feel like an outsider and just because you have an accent, you have to doubly prove that you are not stupid

[allanb]

Nota2 : il n’est pas obligatoire d’aller sur la voie de gauche pour tourner à gauche, c’est seulement un usage : je peux tout à fait rester sur la voie de droite.  (quoted by Idun) 

[quote user="Chancer"]I no longer question the driving habits of my French friends, I just close my eyes and pray when I am a passenger, they all insist that it is the law that you must use the outside lane at all times as that was how they were taught...[/quote]

No, the law doesn't say so, but it is in fact a perfectly intelligent thing to do, and on some roundabouts the only safe way.

Think about it.  Let's say there are 4 roads entering and leaving the roundabout, and you arrive on road nº 1, intending to leave on road nº 4.  Following the principle which I think Chancer seems to be recommending, you move smartly into the left lane.  A car then enters from road nº 2, intending to leave on exit nº 1.  He would be entitled to move into the left lane, but he can't because you are in it.

The two of you go side by side until you get to road nº 3.  Neither of you is interested in road nº 3, but soon after road nº 3 you need to move into the right-hand lane because you're leaving at the next exit.  Since the other fellow is not leaving at the next exit, there's going to be a collision unless one of you gives way.

Now I concede that if you are the only two cars on the roundabout, you will probably find a solution: the obvious one is for you to slow down, let him get clear, and then make your exit.  But what if the right-hand lane at that point is occupied not just by one car, but by several, none of them intending to take the same exit as you?  Whatever you do, you have a problem; and just to make it worse, suppose there is an impatient driver in the left-hand lane close behind you - possibly driving a truck.

I think there is a basic flaw in the theory of multi-lane roundabouts, and in fast, heavy traffic I make no apology for sticking to the outside lane.  It's interesting that in the UK many busy roundabouts have been equipped with traffic lights; it solves the problem, but it raises the question whether a roundabout was the right thing to build in the first place.

[powerdesal]

I think I am with you on this one allanb.

The trouble is the right hand lane is ok until some plank in the left hand lane decides to do a fast corner cutting exit into your exit - perhaps though thats only the Arab way.

[DerekJ]

I'm still very wary of roundabouts in France. I've "gone native" and stay in the outside lane even if taking the 3rd exit even though it goes against all my instincts. As Powerdesal warns... I stay pretty wary of any cars in the lefthand lane and don't try and stand my ground if they decide to cut across.

[mint]

I'm another one that stays on the outside lane because I am nervous that, if I am on an inside lane and I need to exit, no one will let me out and I will be forced to go round and round!

[Chancer]

Encouraged to see how well integrated you all are.

Do you also eave your LH indicators on the whole time you are in lane 3 of an autoroute? [6]

AllanB I was not recommending any particular way to use a rond point in France, it was the article, i was comme,ting on peoples perception that it is the law and incapacity to understand that others may do things differently.

If I were to recommend a method it would be to avoid slowing down and if at all possible straight line the roundabout, all the ones around me have shallow sloping borders and if you have already loaded the RH suspension you dont even feel a bump, - works for me [:D]

[allanb]

[quote user="powerdesal"]The trouble is the right hand lane is ok until some plank in the left hand lane decides to do a fast corner cutting exit into your exit - perhaps though thats only the Arab way.[/quote]

But that's exactly my point.  The "plank in the left hand lane" is doing what the French rules tell him to do: use the left-hand lane.  In order to exit, he has to cut across the right-hand lane: how else can he ever escape from the roundabout?

[Chancer]

I think you have missed soemthing Alan there are no rules (actually one but later) you can choose use the inside or outside lane.

Nota2 : il n’est pas obligatoire d’aller sur la voie de gauche pour tourner à gauche, c’est seulement un usage : je peux tout à fait rester sur la voie de droite.

However the one rule that does come in to play is priorité à droite so that in the case of the OP, even if she hadnt seen the other driver who for the sake of example may have already been on the roundabout (the sort of situation you describe) the other driver should not change lanes but give priorité à droite and go around the roundabout again.

I wil try to find that section and paste it.

Et ben voila!

 R415-10 (priorité à l’anneau).

Attention : Quand l'anneau comporte plusieurs voies, c'est forcément celui qui change de voie qui doit céder le passage (et qui serait en tort en cas d'accident...). C'est en particulier le cas d'un conducteur circulant sur l'anneau intérieur, qui ne doit pas gêner les véhicules circulant sur l'anneau extérieur (à sa droite, donc), en sortant du carrefour

And this/

Si je n’arrive pas à m’insérer sur la voie de droite avant ma sortie, je refais un tour (il est strictement interdit de s’arrêter dans un rond-point)
? Nota : celui qui change de file n’est pas prioritaire, même pour sortir (cf art. R412-9)

[dave21478]

I choose whichever lane looks to have the least resistance to my path. Be in a low gear on the approach and give it some beans on entry, meaning there are no cars next to me and I am free to hog both lanes or straight-line them as required. Carrying enough speed round it and positioning the car so it looks as if I am undecided which lane to be in or which exit to take generally discourages others to pull out infront of me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhR2leV0B60

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFPySKM5CCw

[:D] [:D] [:D]

[Georgina]

LOL that is about just what she did hahah brilliant

[Chancer]

Didnt work for her though because (in her mind) you still pulled out in front of her [6]

Nice to know definitively that P.A.D. works in your favour though [:D]

I loved the video clip of the Dodge Charger, to do that with cars moving on the inside and parked cars on the outside you need a roundabout as big as the guys balls

[cooperlola]

[quote user="Chancer"]

I loved the video clip of the Dodge Charger, to do that with cars moving on the inside and parked cars on the outside you need a roundabout as big as the guys balls

[/quote]Reminds me of the idiocy which is the Friday before raceday - otherwise known as "Mad Friday" (for reasons which you will see when you watch.)

[pitway]

A link I found on completefrance forum about the use of roundabouts and the odd occasion when the old rules apply plus some diagrams of how to use and change lanes on a roundabout etc. short of it all is it is basically the same as the UK but as french drivers probably have never driven in the UK they just make up thier own rules [:)] all in french sorry but the "normal roundabouts" diagrams don't need a translation, basically, the natives have absolutely no idea how to use them properly or safely

Explanation and examples for French roundabouts

[cooperlola]

Pitway, I had a driving lesson here not long ago and asked the instructor about roundabouts as it has always seemed to me that they are used really badly here.  His explanation of lane discipline did not differ all that much from what I was taught (and what is in your link).  I asked him why it was, then, that so many people totally ignored what he obviously taught.  He shrugged and said that once they have their licenses they ignore the code de la route and drive like everybody else on the road!

Personally, I think this business of just dithering round the outside regardless of which exit one is taking to be incredibly dangerous - especially when it is not accompanied by any signals.[:-))]