French car - UK address

[Loiseau]

[quote user="woolybanana"]

...Loiseau has gone home to cry because you are confusing her. Looks like a case for Bananaman. ...

[/quote]

Oh, I missed the helping hand of bananas there - sorry WB.

I am thinking of getting a bike next time they are on promo at Hyper U. 

Would it be OK to ride a French bike in the UK occasionally, while UK-resident?  [;-)]

Angela

[Pickles]

[quote user="Loiseau"][quote user="woolybanana"]...Loiseau has gone home to cry because you are confusing her. Looks like a case for Bananaman. ...[/quote]

Oh, I missed the helping hand of bananas there - sorry WB.

I am thinking of getting a bike next time they are on promo at Hyper U. 

Would it be OK to ride a French bike in the UK occasionally, while UK-resident?  [;-)][/quote]

I'm sorry, but you will need an export licence from France, an import licence into the UK, you will need to reset the lights and reflectors for riding on the left, you must change over the brakes from right to left AND you must get special dispensation from Boris Johnson if you intend to ride it in London.

I have researched this in great depth and can provide original references for all statements ...

Regards

Pickles

[Loiseau]

[:D]  [:D]  [:D]

Didn't think it would be easy...

Angela

[AnOther]

The topic has been discussed before, if you can wade through the pedantry [;-)]

http://www.totalfrance.com/france/forum/viewtopic.php?t=72889&postdays=0&postorder=asc&&start=0

Disappointingly (but not surprisingly) I can find nothing to suggest that the DVLA site has been updated to reflect the written replies.

[Pickles]

[quote user="AnOther"]The topic has been discussed before, if you can wade through the pedantry [;-)]

http://www.totalfrance.com/france/forum/viewtopic.php?t=72889&postdays=0&postorder=asc&&start=0

Disappointingly (but not surprisingly) I can find nothing to suggest that the DVLA site has been updated to reflect the written replies.[/quote]

Well, if it comes to pass, then I for one will be delighted.

Going back to the pedantry, I decided to try to find case law that might support the above. I came across:

http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/resources/documents/common/infringements/case_law/ecj_cases_car_for_web_en.pdf

and have waded through the cases that seemed appropriate, but all I can find, if anything, is support for the view that the UK govt. has the right to prevent a UK resident from driving a foreign-registered vehicle within the UK except under certain circumstances, discussed previously, that unfortunately do not extend to temporary importation of a vehicle based at a non-UK holiday home. Foiled yet again!

A lot of the exceptions have been established by case law ... but I am not really interested in becoming the test case!

Regards

Pickles

[AnOther]

I've raised it a case with SOLVIT, well someone had to !

I'll keep you posted.

[Pickles]

[quote user="Pickles"][quote user="EuroTrash"]Pickles, that's what I always thought until quite recently. But in fact it is correct that under EU law you can only register a car in the country where you are a permanent resident.[/quote]

Could you please quote your source for this? I have been digging around and I can only find non-authoritative sources for this statement - eg "your Europe", which does not claim to be exhaustive but only to cover general cases. Incidentally, I have lodged a specific query via "Your Europe" on this topic.[/quote]

This is what I asked - note this back to the original "Where must I register my car" query and not AnOther's subsequent remarks about temporary importation into the UK ...

 

Enquiry posted on

21/10/2010

Enquiry

80831: My enquiry concerns where I am required to register a vehicle.

I reside in the UK and have a holiday home in France.

I have two cars: one is registered in the UK and is my usual means of transport.

The second is permanently based in France, registered in France at my

holiday home's address.

It would appear from the

documentation on the "your Europe" site that I can ONLY register a

vehicle at my main residence - ie in the UK. Is this correct? If this is

the case, then:

1) I must re-register my French-registered second car in the UK

2) I cannot leave my second car in France for more than 6 months if it is UK-registered.

Is your site's guidance wrong or just incomplete?

Reply

Thank you for your enquiry.

Please note that the information contained on Your Europe reflects the

situation for the large majority of EU citizens who live solely in one

country. The purpose of Your Europe Advice is, amongst others, to be

able to provide citizens with more specific information in more

complicated situations such as yours.

You should know that

the rules on vehicle registration remain by and large governed by

national law and are not regulated by EU legislation.

Generally speaking, you need to register your car where you reside.

Nevertheless it is considered justifiable that, if a resident of one

Member State keeps a car which is used fairly regularly at a place in

another Member State where he has a secondary residence, that car should

be registered in the second Member State. That would be the case for

instance if you were to own one car kept at your home in the UK and one

car kept at your holiday home in France.

You can find out more here:

http://ec.europa.eu/enterprise/policies/single-market-goods/free-movement-non-harmonised-sectors/car-registration/index_en.htm

We therefore consider that you must be able to register your car at your holiday home if the car is to remain there.

We remain at your disposal, should you require further information.

We hope this answers your query.

Yours sincerely,

Your Europe Advice

[Jay]

[quote user="Sunday Driver"]

In the case of a foreign resident who has a holiday home here and opts to leave a car here for less than six months, then the above exemption applies.  If he leaves it here for more than six months or permanently, then he is obliged to register the car here and pay the French taxes. 

[/quote]

Which is exactly what was said 3 days ago!

[EuroTrash]

Thanks for coming back with that, Pickles. At the end of the day it is common sense but if challenged by The Authorities it is probably better to quote from Your Europe than Sunday Driver (though SD probably knows more answers)

[minnie]

Moving on from this, where does that leave the person who normally resides in UK, incurs a driving fine in France, with French reg car, and is told by the gendarmes to swop UK licence for a Franch one. The plot thickens.....

[Pickles]

[quote user="minnie"]Moving on from this, where does that leave the person who normally resides in UK, incurs a driving fine in France, with French reg car, and is told by the gendarmes to swop UK licence for a Franch one. The plot thickens.....[/quote]

My understanding is that the French police cannot force you to swop your UK licence for a French one if you are not resident in France. This requirement would, so I am told, generally be communicated to you by letter, and it would be up to you to provide proof of residence outside France. However, if the crime that you have committed is sufficiently grave, to the extent that a French motorist would have their licence revoked on the spot, then they can take your licence off you and inform you that until your court case, you have a temporary suspension of your right to drive IN FRANCE. In such a case, the licence will normally be returned to you at the end of the period of suspension that is imposed by the court. The ban will be for France only.

Regards

Pickles

[Pickles]

[quote user="Jay"][quote user="Sunday Driver"]In the case of a foreign resident who has a holiday home here and opts to leave a car here for less than six months, then the above exemption applies.  If he leaves it here for more than six months or permanently, then he is obliged to register the car here and pay the French taxes.  [/quote]

Which is exactly what was said 3 days ago![/quote]

Yes, but to be fair, some people want chapter and verse, and if you note from the date of submission of my query to "Your Europe", it does pre-date SD's intervention and our subsequent independent confirmations from EU texts.

Regards

Pickles

[woolybanana]

So where do you stand if you drive your French registered, holiday home car in the UK, being a UK resident?

[Jay]

[quote user="EuroTrash"]Thanks for coming back with that, Pickles. At the end of the day it is common sense but if challenged by The Authorities it is probably better to quote from Your Europe than Sunday Driver (though SD probably knows more answers)[/quote]

But you wouldn't be quoting "Your Europe" or their website you would be quoting Pickles on some internet forum the "Authorities" will not have heard of and care even less about. I doubt whether the police are aware of Your Europe or particularly care what is written on their site if they have. The Your Europe site specifically says:

This information is:

• not professional or
  legal advice (if you need specific advice, you should always consult a
  suitably qualified professional). (REF)

[Pickles]

[quote user="woolybanana"]So where do you stand if you drive your French registered, holiday home car in the UK, being a UK resident?[/quote]

[facetious mode ON]

You don't. You sit.

[facetious mode OFF]

This is the question that AnOther has posed to SOLVIT, the EU's route for addressing such questions. Unless the response given by a DVLA person to a reader of the DT is confirmed, (and which contradicts the answer that they gave me two years ago) then at present if you are UK resident you cannot drive your French-registered holiday home car in the UK.

Regards

Pickles

[Pickles]

[quote user="Jay"][quote user="EuroTrash"]Thanks for coming back with that, Pickles. At the end of the day it is common sense but if challenged by The Authorities it is probably better to quote from Your Europe than Sunday Driver (though SD probably knows more answers)[/quote]

But you wouldn't be quoting "Your Europe" or their website you would be quoting Pickles on some internet forum the "Authorities" will not have heard of and care even less about. I doubt whether the police are aware of Your Europe or particularly care what is written on their site if they have. The Your Europe site specifically says:

This information is:

• not professional or
  legal advice (if you need specific advice, you should always consult a
  suitably qualified professional). (REF)[/quote]

Yes, but we had already found the EU documentary source for being able to register a car in France, when it is primarily based in France (eg at a holiday home) whilst being UK-resident. It is the document:

http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/resources/documents/com_en.pdf

- the particular part being Section II A.

THAT'S what to quote. All I was really doing by posting the response from the "Your Europe" site was to highlight that they admit that the site is not exhaustive nor definitive and hence in this case incorrect.

Regards

Pickles

[woolybanana]

[quote user="Pickles"][quote user="woolybanana"]So where do you stand if you drive your French registered, holiday home car in the UK, being a UK resident?[/quote]
[facetious mode ON]
You don't. You sit.
[facetious mode OFF]
This is the question that AnOther has posed to SOLVIT, the EU's route for addressing such questions. Unless the response given by a DVLA person to a reader of the DT is confirmed, (and which contradicts the answer that they gave me two years ago) then at present if you are UK resident you cannot drive your French-registered holiday home car in the UK.
Regards
Pickles
[/quote]

Thank you Prickles, but why not? The law allows a car registered in one country to be driven in another and if your French registered car is legal in France it must surely be in UK too?

[Pickles]

[quote user="woolybanana"]Thank you Prickles, but why not? The law allows a car registered in one country to be driven in another and if your French registered car is legal in France it must surely be in UK too?[/quote]

The CAR can be driven in the UK, but NOT by a UK resident. The idea is to prevent people from evading tax, fines etc by registering their car in the cheapest country.

Regards

Pickles

[Will]

Unfortunately as past events have demonstrated, some of the police in the UK have shown themselves to be not only unaware of 'Your Europe' but of EU law in general, relying instead of their own incorrect interpretations of unofficial DVLA documents - ref Northants Police's 'Operation Andover' and the Mr Opas affair (dealt with at length on this forum). The French police seem no different, to judge by their inaction in respect of the many foreign-registered vehicles which are illegally in France.

As Pickles' very useful response includes a reference number for his enquiry to the Your Europe site it does at least provide something that should be verifiable, unless of course he has made the whole thing up, which I have to say is highly unlikely. No 'simple' web site like Your Europe can cover every situation, indeed the law - particularly the French legal system which relies on government directives rather than precedent and case law - cannot envisage every eventuality.

Yes, of course if it came to court then legal professionals would have to become involved. But it seems clear that the EU directives, and the clarification posted by Pickles, provide sufficient information about the law for most of us.

[AnOther]

[quote user="AnOther"]I've raised it a case with SOLVIT, well someone had to !

I'll keep you posted.

[/quote]

Received this:

Dear Mr ******,

Thank you for contacting SOLVIT.

According to EU legislation, vehicles have to be registered in the country where the owner is resident.  More information on this can be found on the following website:  http://ec.europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/vehicles/registration/when-who/index_en.htm

I clarified this with the DVLA, who informed me that a UK resident with a car at their holiday home would have to register that car in the UK if they are using it in the UK.

Vehicles which are registered elsewhere in the EU and brought into the UK will be allowed to circulate freely for six months in any 12 month period without the need to register here, provided the vehicle complies with the requirements of its home country.

However, where the keeper of the vehicle is or becomes resident in this country, the vehicle must be immediately registered and licensed here unless he/she is employed or self-employed in another Member State and uses a company car temporarily in the UK for business purposes.

This would seem to comply with the information on the Direct.gov.uk website.

SOLVIT can help with any misapplications of EU law by public authorities. If you have experienced a specific problem with authorities which are misapplying these rules, we may be able to help. Otherwise, I would suggest that you seek any further clarification from the DVLA.

Best regards,

So that tells us nothing we didn't know other than clearly stating that if DVLA do have a policy of allowing some ill defined temporary use of a foreign registered car then it will be they who will be misapplying EU law!

[Pickles]

Thanks for posting the response.

So, at present it appears that;

1) The French registration system only deals with French addresses (the original question). In regards to the registration application form, as a non-resident you are not declaring that you are resident, merely giving an appropriate French address at which the car is based.

2) As a UK resident there is no problem with owning a French-registered car that is based at a holiday home in France

3) As a UK resident you can drive a French-registered car anywhere outside the UK

4) As a UK resident you cannot drive a French-registered car in the UK (especially your own French holiday-home-based car), unless it has been hired to you (either by a company based outside the UK or it is hired to you from the UK to return it to France), or it is your company car from a company based outside the UK and which spends most of its time outside the UK. This is a matter of prevention of tax avoidance and NOT an insurance issue.

5) As a UK resident, your French-registered car can only be driven in the UK by a person who does not reside in the UK. It is up to the driver to prove non-residence.

6) As a UK resident, you can drive your UK-registered car in France for up to 6 months in any 12-month period without having to re-register it (Again, this is a matter of prevention of tax avoidance and NOT an insurance issue)

7) If, as a UK resident, driving either a UK- or other-country- registered car, you commit a driving offence in France, you will be liable to pay the associated fine, (and you car may be immobilised until you do) but unless the offence is severe enough to warrant immediate withdrawal of your driving licence, the Gendarmes cannot require you to give up or exchange your UK licence. In these circumstances however it is up to you to prove that you are UK resident.

For "French" and "France" one can substitute "German" and "Germany" etc: the law applies across Europe.

Regards

Pickles

[cooperlola]

[quote user="Pickles"]Thanks for posting the response.
So, at present it appears that;
4) As a UK resident you cannot drive a French-registered car in the UK (especially your own French holiday-home-based car), unless it has been hired to you (either by a company based outside the UK or it is hired to you from the UK to return it to France), or it is your company car from a company based outside the UK and which spends most of its time outside the UK. This is a matter of prevention of tax avoidance and NOT an insurance issue.
.

Regards
Pickles
[/quote]Question - as a UK resident, if you lease a car in France for your holiday home, could you then drive it in the UK?

 

I am not trying to tie you in knots, Pickles, merely trying to find a way for people to do this legally.

[Pickles]

[quote user="cooperlola"][quote user="Pickles"]So, at present it appears that;

4) As a UK resident you cannot drive a French-registered car in the UK (especially your own French holiday-home-based car), unless it has been hired to you (either by a company based outside the UK or it is hired to you from the UK to return it to France), or it is your company car from a company based outside the UK and which spends most of its time outside the UK. This is a matter of prevention of tax avoidance and NOT an insurance issue.[/quote]

Question - as a UK resident, if you lease a car in France for your holiday home, could you then drive it in the UK?

I am not trying to tie you in knots, Pickles, merely trying to find a way for people to do this legally.[/quote]

I was expecting someone to pick up on this ... and this is in fact an area in which the European Court has actually ruled. The case is C-451/99 and known as the Cura Anlagen case. The case is well summarised below in this quotation from the FIA

"The European Court of Justice already considered the tax treatment of

vehicles rented and registered in one Member State which are in fact

used by the lessee in another Member State, where the lessee is

resident. In its judgment in case C-451/99

("Cura Anlagen"), the Court took the view that an obligation to

register the vehicle in the Member State of residence does not breach,

per se, the provisions on freedom to provide services. However, the

vehicle user must be granted a period of time within which to register

the vehicle in the Member State of residence which is not so short as to

be considered an unjustified obstacle to that freedom (in that case, a

period of three days was considered as contrary to the EC Treaty freedom

rules). The Court also considered that, in order to comply with the

provisions of the Treaty, the imposition of a registration tax on the

leased vehicle in the Member State of residence must be proportionate to

the period during which the vehicle will be registered and used in that

Member State of residence."

Note that this long-term leasing is considered to be different to a short-term rental of eg a French hire car in France to drive back to the UK, or the allocation of a French-registered hire car which has ended up in the UK at the end of a hire to a UK-resident customer who will be taking it back abroad.

So, back to the long-term lease: here now lies the problem: the EU ruling implies a period of grace to allow registration (which might also effectively allow temporary importation), which is entirely at odds with the UK government's requirement that the car be re-registered immediately on entry to the UK. Anyone for a test case?

Regards

Pickles

[PaulT]

[quote user="cooperlola"]

[quote user="Pickles"]Thanks for posting the response.
So, at present it appears that;
4) As a UK resident you cannot drive a French-registered car in the UK (especially your own French holiday-home-based car), unless it has been hired to you (either by a company based outside the UK or it is hired to you from the UK to return it to France), or it is your company car from a company based outside the UK and which spends most of its time outside the UK. This is a matter of prevention of tax avoidance and NOT an insurance issue.
.

Regards
Pickles
[/quote]Question - as a UK resident, if you lease a car in France for your holiday home, could you then drive it in the UK?

 

I am not trying to tie you in knots, Pickles, merely trying to find a way for people to do this legally.

[/quote]

Would this not be perfectly legal - a lease car would be registered to the leasing company.

[Pickles]

[quote user="PaulT"][quote user="cooperlola"][quote user="Pickles"]So, at present it appears that;

4) As a UK resident you cannot drive a French-registered car in the UK (especially your own French holiday-home-based car), unless it has been hired to you (either by a company based outside the UK or it is hired to you from the UK to return it to France), or it is your company car from a company based outside the UK and which spends most of its time outside the UK. This is a matter of prevention of tax avoidance and NOT an insurance issue.[/quote]

Question - as a UK resident, if you lease a car in France for your holiday home, could you then drive it in the UK?

I am not trying to tie you in knots, Pickles, merely trying to find a way for people to do this legally.[/quote]

Would this not be perfectly legal - a lease car would be registered to the leasing company.[/quote]

Unfortunately, the UK situation regarding foreign-registered long-term lease cars as opposed to short-term hire cars and company cars is not clear. Obviously, the car needs to be registered to the lease company and not to the driver (IIRC some, at least in the UK, put the driver's name and address on the registration document). It may be an answer (and probably ought to be an answer), but it has not been tested in court in the UK AFAIK.

Regards

Pickles