French car - UK address

[Loiseau]

Maybe you would ride shotgun for me, Wooly? ;-)

Angela

[woolybanana]

well, I only live about a mile away

 

 

[Loiseau]

That's why I thought it would be so convenient...

A

[AnOther]

[quote user="EuroTrash"]so why does

http://ec.europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/vehicles/registration/formalities/index_en.htm

say (in a red box with a yellow exclamation mark next to it) "You can only register a car in the country where you normally live or have permanent residence."

You cannot register your car in a country where you have a secondary residence or holiday house" [/quote]Possibly because it also claims that you need proof of insurance to register a vehicle - you don't - and if they have got that wrong how can you place such faith in the rest of what they have say ?

They also claim to "focus on real-life, cross-border situations" which, considering that the majority play the game and successfully register their cars, would also tend to bring their veracity into question.

I think you may have been reading with blinkers and latched onto a lie and I challenge you to find a proper EU directive which validates the theory.

[woolybanana]

Angela, I am your humble and obedient servant, as ever!

[sid]

Thanks SD, so succinctly put, as usual. [;-)]

[Sunday Driver]

[quote user="Loiseau"]Yes, SD, but that seems to apply either to permament incomers to France, or to people bringing over a UK-reg car to leave at their holiday home? I'm not trying to wriggle out of any taxes that I know of. Mine was purchased, new, in France, subject to whatever French taxes were applicable, but the address on the carte grise is that of me at my holiday home. It's not a "visiting car". It's more permanent than I am. It remains tucked up in my (French) garage between my visits. I think this is the same scenario that Pickles is envisaging. None of the official answers, either side of the Channel, seems to fit the situation. Angela[/quote]

This is really not that complicated.....

You want to have a car permanently available here for when you visit your French property.  You can either:

- bring a UK car over and register it at that address or

- buy a new French car and register it at that address or

- rent a car which is registered to the hire company's address or

- sweetheart your friendly neighbour into lending you his car.

Either way, the vehicle's taxes have been paid so you are entitled to drive it on the roads.

The address on the carte grise is required for the national vehicle registration database so that the authorities can identify the owner in order to enforce traffic violations. The fact that the address is a second home is immaterial.

 

[EuroTrash]

Thanx Sunday Driver & An0ther you have re-convinced me of what I always used to believe until someone else convinced me otherwise, however blinkers now removed (praps I'll drive better without them too), agree that youreurope is a load of balons and I am happy again

xx

[Will]

I'm not sure that you can dismiss an official web site as a 'load of ballons' just because it doesn't say what you want it to say.

The information is borne out by the 'Official journal of the European Union' - Commission interpretative communication on procedures for the registration of motor vehicles originating in another Member State (2007/C 68/04), which says:

3. REGISTERING A MOTOR VEHICLE IN THE MEMBER STATE OF RESIDENCE

3.1. What is the Member State of residence for the purpose of registration?

According to the Court of Justice, registration is the natural corollary of the exercise of the powers of taxation

in the area of motor vehicles. It facilitates supervision both for the Member State of registration and for

other Member States, since registration in one Member State constitutes proof of payment of taxes on

motor vehicles in that State.

Every individual must register his vehicle in the Member State in which he is normally resident. Article 7 of

Directive 83/182/EEC and Article 6 of Directive 83/183/EEC set out precise rules for determining

normal residence in situations where the persons concerned are respectively temporarily or permanently

living and driving in a Member State other than their own. However, the case law of the Court of Justice

holds that the quantitative criterion to which this article refers (having to live more than 185 days per year

in a given place) cannot be taken as the main criterion if there are other factors which alter the situation.

According to the Court of Justice, where a person has both personal and occupational ties in two Member

States, his normal residence, determined in the context of an overall assessment by reference to all the relevant

facts, is that where the permanent centre of interests of that person is located; in the event that such an

overall assessment does not result in its determination, primacy must be given to personal ties

EEC directive 83/182/EEC, although primarily about taxation and temporary importation of vehicles, does include the following (Article 6 is to do with saddle-horses so is not relevant to this discussion):

Article 7

General rules for determining residence

1.

For the purposes of this Directive, "normal residence" means the place

where a person usually lives, that is for at least 185 days in each

calendar year, because of personal and occupational ties, or, in the

case of a person with no occupational ties because of personal ties

which show close links between that person and the place where he is

living.

However, the normal residence of a person whose

occupational ties are in a different place from his personal ties and

who consequently lives in turn in different places situated in two or

more Member States shall be regarded as being the place of his personal

ties, provided that such person returns there regularly. This last

condition need not be met where the person is living in a Member State

in order to carry out a task of a definite duration. Attendance at a

university or school shall not imply transfer of normal residence.

2. Individuals shall give proof of their place of normal residence by

any appropriate means, such as their identity card or any other valid

document.

3. Where the competent authorities of the Member State

of importation have doubts as to the validity of a statement as to

normal residence made in accordance with paragraph 2, or for the purpose

of certain specific controls, they may request any additional

information or evidence.

Sunday Driver's explanation is certainly in keeping with the spirit of the law, in so far as it allows the authorities to collect any taxes due on vehicles registered in that member state, but the actual letter of the law seems to be rather more closely-defined than that. I am not a lawyer, but to my simple mind owning a holiday home would not seem to be sufficient proof of either 'permanent centre of interest' or 'personal ties', and if you spend more than 185 days per year in your holiday home then it ceases to be a holiday home for all manner of purposes, not just vehicle registration.

[Pickles]

Directive 83/183/EEC makes specific reference to personal property (including vehicles) in connection with the setting-up of a second or holiday residence and and does not prevent the member state in which the second residence is located from levying specific or periodic taxes -eg motor vehicle taxes.

Regards

Pickles

[AnOther]

Your source Will is what prompted my reply re twisted knickers.

The law can be quite clear and precise in stating what you must do but a little more obscure when it comes to what you may do.

An example of that might be the UK driving licence which you are lawfully entitled to keep and use but at the same time can choose to exchange it for a French one.

[Sunday Driver]

We are continuing to focus on the definition of country of residence for a situation where it doesn't actually apply..... 

That commission interpretative communication on procedures for the registration of motor vehicles originating in another Member State (2007/C 68/04) confirms the rule that if you acquire a car from another country and wish to use it on the roads in your country of residence, then you must first register it there and pay the taxes - "Every individual must register his vehicle in the Member State in which he is normally resident".  The interpretive communication gives the definition of residence which must be applied in determining whether or not a country can exercise its taxation rights over the vehicle. It does not prohibit anyone from registering a car in a country other than their country of residence.

The Your Europe website statement that "You can only register a car in the country where you normally live or have permanent residence. You cannot register your car in a country where you have a secondary residence or holiday house" appears contrary to the commision interpretive communication. I suggest that the latter provides the definitive legal position.

 

 

[Pickles]

So I did some more digging ...

The document:

http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/resources/documents/com_en.pdf

covers the situation - the particular part being Section II A:

" Determining whether Member States are entitled to tax cars.

As Community law stands at present, Member States have wide discretion over maintaining or introducing taxes on cars. The decision as to which cars are liable for national tax is generally linked to vehicle registration. In a communication of 15 May 1996, the Commission observed that an individual cannot be allowed to register his vehicle in the Member State of his choice as this would mean that all

vehicles would be registered in the Member State with the lowest tax rates. At the time the Commission confirmed the principle that every individual must register his vehicle in the Member State in which he is normally resident.

In most cases it is easy to determine the normal place of residence. Article 7 of Directive 83/182/EC10 sets out precise rules for determining normal residence in situations where the persons concerned are temporarily living and driving in a Member State other than their own. However, as the Commission points out, Court case law holds that the quantitative criterion to which this particular Article

refers (having to live more than 185 days per year in a given place) cannot be taken as the main criterion if there are other factors which alter the situation. Nevertheless the Commission considers defensible the argument whereby, if a resident of one Member State keeps a car which is used fairly regularly at a place in another Member State where he has his second residence, that car should be registered in the second Member State. This approach is also justified in other contexts, e.g. for the purposes of vehicle testing."

The original document gives references to back up each of the points above.

Regards

Pickles

[Loiseau]

I was rather heartened by that reference Pickles, and went off right away to look at the site.

Then I thought I would print out the relevant bit in French, in case it should ever be useful to show it in France, and . . what do I find?

It's not offered in French!

Only Danish, German, Greek, Finnish, Portuguese and Italian!

Angela

(If I could do smilies with this browser, I'd do the one with the baffled look!)

[Will]

Maybe the powers that be in Brussels aren't bothered about that particular directive as it applies to France - although of course vehicle tax still exists in France, it's just that in the case of most private vehicles it is a once-off registration tax rather than an annual road fund licence.

I would agree wholeheartedly as far as registering a vehicle to a holiday home, particularly as in order to do so you need to show a utility bill or similar to prove that it is your house, that the purpose of the law is fulfilled more than adequately. And plenty of permanent residents in France have British passports and British driving licences, so that is not likely to be a stumbling block.

However I still feel that in the unlikely event of a law enforcement officer trying to follow the EU Directive as set out, people could still fall foul of the law. After all, the Northamptonshire Constabulary supposedly based their interpretation of a closely-related law on a badly-worded DVLA press release, and this is a misleadingly-worded EU directive.

Now, what about a person I know who is permanently resident in England but has at least two vehicles, normally kept and used in England, registered to his French holiday home? Supposedly this is done to save on road fund licence and having to have an MoT test every year. He insists he is perfectly legal, but I think we know otherwise. I haven't asked, but I suppose they are insured in France too.

[NickP]

Will wrote:     Now, what about a person I know who is permanently resident in England but has at least two vehicles, normally kept and used in England, registered to his French holiday home? Supposedly this is done to save on road fund licence and having to have an MoT test every year. He insists he is perfectly legal, but I think we know otherwise. I haven't asked, but I suppose they are insured in France too.

I think you'll find Will that this arrangement is to enable the person mentioned to avoid paying parking and speed camera fines as well as not paying RFL. But of course should the insurance have to pay out a large claim, the proverbial may hit the fan

[Will]

[quote user="NickP"]...this arrangement is to enable the person mentioned to avoid paying parking and speed camera fines as well as not paying RFL.

But of course should the insurance have to pay out a large claim, the proverbial may hit the fan[/quote]

I know what you are saying, but this particular person would never go fast enough to risk a speed camera fine and is probably s*** scared of traffic wardens. If you have bought motor insurance in one EU state, then other EU directives say that this will provide legal cover (i.e. third party risks) in all states, so it would only be 'own damage' and any associated claim that was not covered, and then only if the French insurer found out that the French address on their records isn't actually his principal residence.

It's not the insurer's job to uphold EU guidelines about vehicle registration - no, it's just another example of an EU law that is not enforced, probably because in most countries it's difficult to understand all the ramifications, just as hard for the enforcers as for the members of the public who are supposed to follow it.

[Sunday Driver]

[quote user="Will"]

Maybe the powers that be in Brussels aren't bothered about that particular directive as it applies to France - although of course vehicle tax still exists in France, it's just that in the case of most private vehicles it is a once-off registration tax rather than an annual road fund licence.

[/quote]

Actually, it's the French who are likely to be bothered.

The main concern is VAT -  you pay 5% if you buy a new car in the Canary Islands and if you keep it registered there, you would be cheating the French out of their 19.6% TVA........

 

[Pickles]

[quote user="Will"]Now, what about a person I know who is permanently resident in England but has at least two vehicles, normally kept and used in England, registered to his French holiday home? Supposedly this is done to save on road fund licence and having to have an MoT test every year. He insists he is perfectly legal, but I think we know otherwise. I haven't asked, but I suppose they are insured in France too.[/quote]

The UK situation is quite clear: as a UK resident he has no right to drive either of his French-registered vehicles in the UK at all. I know full well that, being a UK resident, the one place in Europe that I cannot drive our French-registered car is in the UK. I even went to the trouble of checking with the DVLA to see if "in an emergency" there were ANY circumstances in which my driving our French-registered car in the UK would be tolerated by the UK authorities. The answer was "No". If I wanted to drive it to the UK for the purposes of importing it, I would be required to either have it driven by a French (or other non-UK) resident or trailer it from the port.

Regards

Pickles

[chessie]

Been very intrigued by this post - and the various 'knicker twisting' that has been going on....!!

But Pickles - I really am puzzled by your post about driving French registered car in the UK.

When I've been in the UK I have seen a lot of foreign registered, foreign number plate cars around.    What about the foreign owned juggernauts and vans that are seen on the UK roads.

What about all the cars, bearing Eire number plates - the red ones - being driven on UK roads.   What about all the other foreign registered cars, with foreign number plates - Spanish, German, Swiss, Eastern European - I have seen them ALL on UK roads.  Some of these cars are owned by people - not UK nationals - but nevertheless resident in the UK. 

Are you really telling us that it is only French registered, French number plate cars that are NOT allowed to drive on UK roads.    (The comments about 'importing a car' into the UK are a bit of a red herring surely).

We drove our French registered car in the UK, with insurance, for a short time whilst we were still resident in the UK - and the insurance company didn't have a problem with that.

Or am I getting confused again.....

Chessie

[EuroTrash]

Chessie - anyone not resident in the UK can drive their o/seas-reg vehicle there.

But UK residents, whilst in the UK, can only drive UK-reg cars.

Daft, innit?

[woolybanana]

Stop it you bunch of confusing show offs; Loiseau has gone home to cry because you are confusing her. Looks like a case for Bananaman. A girl knows when she has been helped by a the hands of a banana!

[Pickles]

[quote user="chessie"]Been very intrigued by this post - and the various 'knicker twisting' that has been going on....!![/quote]

In my case not "intrigued"; more like "driven to distraction"!

[quote user="chessie"]But Pickles - I really am puzzled by your post about driving French registered car in the UK.[/quote]

Yes well, I'm afraid it keeps coming up here. People don't believe it and so it is worth repeating occasionally.

[quote user="chessie"]When I've been in the UK I have seen a lot of foreign registered, foreign number plate cars around.    What about the foreign owned juggernauts and vans that are seen on the UK roads.[/quote]

Either:

they are being driven by foreign residents (the likeliest case), ie people of whatever nationality but who are NOT resident in the UK

OR

they are driven by UK-resident drivers but owned by foreign-registered companies and the vehicles are not always in the UK.

[quote user="chessie"]What about all the cars, bearing Eire number plates - the red ones - being driven on UK roads.[/quote]

(RED Eire number plates? They are now black lettering on a white background ...) As long as the vehicles are not in the UK for more than 6 months in 12, and are driven by foreign-resident drivers, then they are legal. Do you know how many Irish people visit the UK for various reasons? Hordes of 'em. Some are my relatives.

[quote user="chessie"]What about all the other foreign registered cars, with foreign number plates - Spanish, German, Swiss, Eastern European - I have seen them ALL on UK roads.  Some of these cars are owned by people - not UK nationals - but nevertheless resident in the UK.[/quote]

The ones that are owned by UK residents (who are not students - students are exempt) are illegal and ought to be re-registered. The ones that are driven by temporary, non-UK-resident, visitors for not more than 6 months in 12 months are perfectly legal.

[quote user="chessie"]Are you really telling us that it is only French registered, French number plate cars that are NOT allowed to drive on UK roads. [/quote]

No. The same rules apply across the EU. Insofar as the UK is concerned, UK residents are not allowed to drive foreign-registered vehicles within the UK except under certain very specific and limited circumstances that will rarely occur. Equally, French residents of whatever nationality cannot drive non-French registered vehicles in France in the general case. (Ditto Germany, Italy, etc) The difference between the UK and France is that France allows a period of grace if you are a French resident and are importing a foreign-registered vehicle in order to give you time to get the car registered in France; the UK gives NO period of grace whatsoever. I know someone who was entering the UK in a car carrying valid German export plates who was stopped and required to provide reasonable proof that he was transitting the UK to import the car to the Irish Republic.

 [quote user="chessie"](The comments about 'importing a car' into the UK are a bit of a red herring surely). [/quote]

Well, not really. I made those comments to underline that in the UK, unlike in France, there is absolutely no period of grace which would allow a UK resident to drive a foreign-registered car (unless it is a hire car or business vehicle for a company registered abroad) from the port of entry to whatever destination in the UK.

[quote user="chessie"]We drove our French registered car in the UK, with insurance, for a short time whilst we were still resident in the UK - and the insurance company didn't have a problem with that. [/quote]

The insurance company would not be in the least bit concerned (unless they decided that they wanted to find an excuse not to pay your own damage for an accident that occurred in the UK). It is NOT about insurance: it is about rules preventing people from choosing to register their cars in the cheapest country.

Basically you should not have driven your French-registered car in the UK whilst you were still UK-resident. Previous discussions have highlighted the relatively low chances of being caught in the UK but in those discussions there have been cases noted where people have been caught. They are few and far between. Bear in mind that you now know rather more about the subject than the average UK (non-traffic) policeman ... or French agent de police/gendarme for that matter ...

[quote user="chessie"]Or am I getting confused again.....[/quote]

I have been accused of never using one sentence when a whole book would be less enlightening. Basically "wot ET sed, OK?"

For those at the back who weren't keeping up: if you are French-resident, you can drive your French-registered car in the UK for up to 6 months in any 12 month period.

What was the question again please?

Regards

Pickles

[Opifex]

I have been carefully following this thread as I was thinking of changing my UK-registered car for a French registered vehicle.  At present I am UK-resident but spend nearly 6 months each year in France and sometimes leave our car in France while we make trips to the UK by air.  As a result the car is in France for more than 6 months.  I was considering buying a French car but found the statement that “It is against the law for a British resident to drive a vehicle displaying foreign registration number plates in the UK” in the DVLA publication V100.

I asked the DVLA whether this was the complete story and received the following e-mail:

"Foreign vehicles brought temporarily into the country by a person resident outside the UK for their own use, are permitted to circulate in the country …..  provided they are able to satisfy the authorities ….. they are resident outside the UK.

Normal residence means the place where a person usually lives for at least 185 days in each calendar year. Drivers may be asked to produce proof of their place of residence to the authorities of the country the vehicle is being used in."

As Pickles says the chances of being caught may be small but I found an article in issue 31 of the DVLA publication DVL today that says that the vehicle may be clamped or impounded so it's quite a big risk.

Assuming France has the same laws as the UK, it seems that if you live in the UK most of the year and have a car that is occasionally used in the UK but spends most of the year in France, then both countries insist that it is registered with them. 

I can see a possible solution to this problem.  Would it be legal to register a car in both countries and change the number plates each time you cross the channel?  The UK plates can be used from the port to our French address and then I would have six month’s before they must be changed to the French ones.  Similarly the plates can be changed back the UK ones before I set out for the return journey.

A simpler solution would be to carry on simply using a UK-registered car and hoping that the French authorities are not going to enforce the 6 month rule.  A few weeks ago I noticed a UK-registered car parked in a pay-and-display area with no parking ticket, but intriguingly did have a CT sticker on the windscreen.  From the amount of dirt on the windscreen it looked as though it had not moved for a long time.  The car was parked under the windows of the mairie and police station.

 

[Pickles]

[quote user="Opifex"]I have been carefully following this thread as I was thinking of changing my UK-registered car for a French registered vehicle.  At present I am UK-resident but spend nearly 6 months each year in France and sometimes leave our car in France while we make trips to the UK by air.  As a result the car is in France for more than 6 months.  I was considering buying a French car but found the statement that “It is against the law for a British resident to drive a vehicle displaying foreign registration number plates in the UK” in the DVLA publication V100.[/quote]

ie: you could drive a French-registered car anywhere outside the UK, but not in the UK.

[quote user="Opifex"]I asked the DVLA whether this was the complete story and received the following e-mail:

"Foreign vehicles brought temporarily into the country by a person resident outside the UK for their own use, are permitted to circulate in the country …..  provided they are able to satisfy the authorities ….. they are resident outside the UK.

Normal residence means the place where a person usually lives for at least 185 days in each calendar year. Drivers may be asked to produce proof of their place of residence to the authorities of the country the vehicle is being used in."

As Pickles says the chances of being caught may be small but I found an article in issue 31 of the DVLA publication DVL today that says that the vehicle may be clamped or impounded so it's quite a big risk.[/quote]

If you are caught the the penalty is severe, but being realistic the chance of being caught seems remote. However, I would not risk it. Others do.

[quote user="Opifex"]Assuming France has the same laws as the UK, it seems that if you live in the UK most of the year and have a car that is occasionally used in the UK but spends most of the year in France, then both countries insist that it is registered with them.[/quote]

If it spends most of the year in France then it must be registered there; once it is registered there then you cannot take it back to the UK without reregistering it whilst you remain a UK resident. 

[quote user="Opifex"]I can see a possible solution to this problem.  Would it be legal to register a car in both countries and change the number plates each time you cross the channel? [/quote]

No: in order to register it in France you would have to give up the UK registration, and vice-versa. In addition, French plates are supposed to be permanently affixed to the vehicle, not easily removeable

[quote user="Opifex"]A simpler solution would be to carry on simply using a UK-registered car and hoping that the French authorities are not going to enforce the 6 month rule.[/quote]

They can only enforce it if someone notices. Bear in mind that once in France, the car could have crossed other land borders into other countries ... but it is still a risk, albeit again a remote one

[quote user="Opifex"] A few weeks ago I noticed a UK-registered car parked in a pay-and-display area with no parking ticket, but intriguingly did have a CT sticker on the windscreen.  From the amount of dirt on the windscreen it looked as though it had not moved for a long time.  The car was parked under the windows of the mairie and police station.[/quote]

The most charitable interpretation would be that it was awaiting reregistration, had got through the CT and had accumulated a lot of grot in the month that was allowed ...(or was given a longer period to register because of the need for Single Vehicle Approval!!)

Alternatively, it may have been impounded by the police ...

Or abandoned ...

But most likely, it is just yet another illegal UK-registered vehicle in France. Take a look in the car park at any French airport with services to the UK if you have an idle minute whilst awaiting somone's arrival: you will always find a collection of them

Regards

Pickles