The importance of being educated

[SaligoBay]

Second time lucky, don't know what's happened to my earlier post about this.

Had my ANPE interview yesterday, and it would seem that I'm eminently unemployable in France!! 

Not only because Languedoc has about the highest unemployment rate in France, nor because informatique (my area) is the domaine in the worst crise.

It's because I have no compétences!!   Here's what she explained.....

UK employers are more willing to employ you on your potential, and will offer in-house training etc.   French employers want bits of paper that prove that you have the skills for the job - and they are très éxigeants, she said.  Your person skills, communication skills, organisational ability, whatever, count for very little unless backed up by proof on paper.

To sum up, "on est très diplome" en France.

I know this came up before in another long and heated thread about why French parents push their children so hard in education.  It's because they need it.  Many jobs are selected by concours rather than CV-and-interview.

She reckons that for translation work, nobody will employ me without a degree, so a job would be a few years away.

My next step is an appt with an employment agency to prepare a bilan of my compétences, because it was beyond her to do it!

Yours, skill-free and job-free in France,

SaligoBay

Disclaimer: this is a report of what happened at ANPE yesterday, that's all.   Please discard immediately any reactions along the lines of "you turn up in France and expect to land a cushy job" etc, because (fortunately) that was never my plan!

    

[Teamedup]

Naturally, you have to have passed all the exams, that in many jobs you don't actually have to be any good at it or anything else, is quite by the bye the bye.

And this is illustrated wonderfully in the Education Nationale.

 

[Mistral]

Has anybody read the Terry Pratchett book interesting times? There's an civil service exam to become a "night soil operative" and the candidates have to compose a poem about a white pony trotting through the mist (or something like) It's always reminded me of the French system.

All the concours are niveau something. Meaning you must have at least that qualification to sit them. Teaching exams are a bit different but what friends have told me about the other concours (and a large part of the family seems to be fonctionnaires), there is always a culture générale part. My husband's cousin borrowed all our hist-géo books to prepare her last next-stage-up concours. She works in human ressources at the Poste.  

When I first came to France, I applied for a job in a supermarket. The anpe wouldn't let me even  interview because I didn't have to bac G (that would be ES now) asked for in the ad.

"I've got a degree" "Yes, but you haven't got bac G"

[Val_2]

I can quite believe it. We get a lot of ads for locals to work for Brittany Ferries as we are very close to their head office and just to work as a waitress clearing and cleaning tables requires a BAC pass on paper. Now I ask you, how does a middle-aged housewife looking for this sort of work go on after her years of cleaning and family experiences.  I was very lucky at being offered work locally albeit only for a total of about two months per year but no qualifications necessary and it is interesting manual work with fringe benefits like all the chocolate and coffee I can stuff. I did wonder now I have more expenses and time on my hands aout going to see what is on offer to the more mature non-BAC english/french speaking person here at the local ANPE but don't think I will bother if it is that demoralising.

[SaligoBay]

Mistral, were you serious about the supermarket job?!

Right now, I'm having a kind of déjà vu about this ASSEDIC/ANPE thing.

Last September, I had my ASSEDIC rendezvous, and tried to register my number at the end of the month, as instructed.  It wouldn't accept it, so I phoned and was told that I didn't have to register till November.  So I left it, and then mid-October I got a letter saying I hadn't done the number thing, so I was out of the system.  Grrrrrrr!!

Got re-instated, had ANPE rendezvous yesterday, at the time given, they were expecting me at 2.30 and I was there at 2.30.  What arrives in the post today - a letter saying that as I didn't turn up for a rendezvous before September 3rd (I made the appt in August, Sept 7th was the first they could give me!), I'm out of the system AGAIN, for 6 months this time.      Mrs Angry phone call coming on....... 

 

[letrangere]

Further on this subject, assuming you have a British university degree and/or even A levels would these equivalent qualifications be recognised in France?  And what is the UK equivalent of a Bac, ie how many A levels?  And presumably, even if these quals were transferrable, wouldn't you have to have your certificates attested at the French Embassy in London and/or FCO first and proven authentic, etc., etc?  M

 

[Millymollymandy]

My husband has A levels and a degree. It was a 4 yr joint honours degree in languages. The ANPE told him that is the equivalent of a "BAC plus 3". (presume that means 3 years). I don't know about having certificates attested or whatever, they didn't mention it (not that that means you don't have to!)

[Tourangelle]

British qualifications are necessarily recognised, we're all Europeans now and so on..., that said, I've found it useful to have my degree translated (traducteur assermenté) not least because the original is in Welsh and English.  Some places ask you to have an attestation de niveau des études apparently, but I've never been asked.  This would be from the Académie of whereever you live.

Bac + 2 is BTS or DEUG for the French, I don't think there is really a British equivalent; a degree is bac +3, even if it took you four years because you did a language, bac +4 would be with a masters.  It does seem to be the qualification that counts rather than the time you might have taken to do it.  My husband has a masters in Librarianship here, which was a full time two year course, but he only gets to put bac+4 on his CV and not +5.  It's all in the course of changing now anyway, la maitrisse is going to be phased out of French universities and replaced with le master which takes two years... confusing stuff.

I have no idea how many A-levels make a bac, if you've been to university nobody seems to ask.

[Cerise]

Cheer up you lot.  I was told by our local Chambre de Commerce that I had obviously made up my CV as I had worked in several different domains and been to college when I was 40.  These things are simply 'pas possible'.  Anyway as I am 50 this year (boo hoo) and - shock horror - had never been to University I would be unemployable anyway!!!

Good luck SB - hope someone realises you're not really incompetent and ill-educated, simply English.

Maggi

[Dick Smith]

It's not a lot of use, but there is a National Qualifications Framework in the UK, and that SHOULD have international equivalencies (but I've been unable to find anything specific). It's at

http://www.qca.org.uk/qualifications/types/493.html

IF we take a Bac at level 3 (A level in the UK) then a BAC+2= Foundation degree/HND. Bac+3=honours degree, which sounds right for a 4-year languages jobbie.

If I am reading this stuff right, but it only came in this month and no-one seems to be using it yet.

[Biereventre]

"UK employers are more willing to employ you on your potential, and will offer in-house training etc.   French employers want bits of paper that prove that you have the skills for the job - and they are très éxigeants, she said.  Your person skills, communication skills, organisational ability, whatever, count for very little unless backed up by proof on paper."

Keep plugging away SB. I got a job as 'Chef de Production' in a small factory with poor French language and no 'proof' of skills. Just what I'd written on my CV. I was a Production Director in the UK.

I have few academic qualifications and yet in 1 month of job hunting I had 3 interviews. I sent out about 30 or 40 letters. I tried to sound enthusiastic and open minded about what type of job I would accept.

When I asked French friends about this in relation to the unemployment rate they all said that most of the unemployed don't want to work so if you are keen you have a chance.

I had the same situation in the UK. Couldn't get people to fill vacancies for unskilled jobs paying about £250 a week so I ended up taking on some guy's from Eastern Europe who kept knocking on our door asking for work. They were brilliant. It's a sort of role reversal now.

I'm not saying it's easy and some will say that I've been lucky, but I've always believed you make your own luck, so thanks.

Good Luck

Paul

ps: at least you wont be spending as much on Fosters now

[SaligoBay]

Thank you, Biereventre.  But Fosters?????  I must be missing something..... wouldn't be the first time!

I don't feel particularly discouraged by the ANPE, because most people round me (i.e. French people) just say they're a complete waste of space anyway.  But it was odd to come out feeling so unemployable, from a place whose aim is to get you into employment!

And yet there are little oddities.  Dell, for example, were looking for help-desk people.  Brilliant, I thought, they'll be desperate for native English speakers.  WRONG!!!!  They want Spanish speakers.

Ah yes, now listen to what Madame ANPE said about THAT.  She said that even if my Spanish was fluent, they wouldn't want me because my accent would be too foreign!!   Somehow a Spanish-speaking anglophone is more foreign than a Spanish-speaking francophone.  Sigh.....

And so it goes.  There's a job out there for me somewhere.  Maybe sweeping floors in IKEA when it finally opens.  If they'll have me.     

 

 

[Mysfloss]

who are you going to go to for your bilan de competances?

[SaligoBay]

An agency called Septacom in Montpellier, starts Wed 23rd Sept.

[Mysfloss]

[quote]An agency called Septacom in Montpellier, starts Wed 23rd Sept.[/quote]

do you have to fund this youself or because you are unemployed(able):is it payed for.its not a trick question i'm just curious.

[SaligoBay]

ANPE pay for it.  If I went there as an individual, I'm sure the cost would be prohibitive!

btw, I've got ANOTHER snotty letter from ASSEDIC saying that I didn't register at the end of August.  But I did, I did, I did, I did, I did - I even had a witness!!   It's a tad annoying (sorry to Nathalie, but it is!!!), and I wonder if I should just drop them, now that I'm on the ANPE path....

Anyone know just how intrinsically the two are linked?

[Miki]

 btw, I've got ANOTHER snotty letter from ASSEDIC saying that I didn't register at the end of August.  But I did, I did, I did, I did, I did - I even had a witness!!   It's a tad annoying (sorry to Nathalie, but it is!!!), and I wonder if I should just drop them, now that I'm on the ANPE path....

Anyone know just how intrinsically the two are linked?

SB,

I posted elsewhere that our son had nothing but false stories told, then denied and a load of utter differing rubbish repeated to him over 6 months.

They originally had told him that because there was no work for him in our area, he could go and search for work in the UK with their blessing. He did and found work easily, he stayed there 10 months and then when he had no longer had a place to stay, he returned home.

He went went to ASSEDIC, who then said, he was OK to sign back on the chomage. He duly did this but things then changed and somehow he was no longer allowed to receive chomage, having been told "no problems, you have fulfilled all the criteria".

For weeks stories changed depending on whom one spoke to, until his head spun with trying to tie up all the different "theories".

He was finally told he needed to work for one day to fulfil the regulation, completely out of line with the paperwork they gave him at first.  OK find work, then he would be able to receive "paiement chomage" later on when work run out, as it invariably does here.

Catch 22.....................there is no work..........no work ............no chomage, clever eh!!

...........and all this done with perfect etiquette and a fixed smile on their faces, can't fault them there, shame they don't all sing from the same hymn book though!!

ANPE, yes nice new offices, same old tune,

"what creds have you" ........

"none"

(grin comes back at you)

"then come back when you have" ............

"but I can't get any"

"then..................!!

"Difficile n'est ce pas ? Well not according to the UK TV programmes it ain't.  

What connects them ?

Basically in our case 500 metres or from here to the moon in terms of one hand and t'other

 

 

 

 

[Millymollymandy]

To the poster with the kids in the photo (for some reason I'm not seeing any names):

Don't worry, my husband got the same letter from ASSEDIC re not signing on last month too! Glad to hear we're not alone.

This is our experience. Husband used to work in Geneva, but we lived in France. When he lost his job, the Swiss said to go and talk to the ANPE re possible unemployment benefits. The ANPE said (at least, one woman), "no of course you can't claim the dole in France when you haven't been working here, paying taxes etc". Fair enough, that's true, we thought at the time. A long time later he learnt from ASSEDIC that it was complete bo***cks and that due to the agreements between French and Swiss Governments re. cross-border workers, he could have been claiming the unemployment benefits in France.

HOWEVER by this time he had been unemployed for more than 1 year therefore he could not claim it any more!!!!

So we've sold up, moved halfway across France to a cheaper area to live and hope that he'll find something down the freelance route. At least we don't have a crippling mortgage anymore.

Strangely the ANPE have been polite and helpful here in Fougeres.........

[SaligoBay]

Yes, MMM, as Miki said, can't fault the ANPE for politeness and shiny new offices.  No complaints there at all! 

At my very first rdv with ASSEDIC, she asked me "Have you ever worked in France?"   I said no, and that was it, the letter saying I wasn't entitled to unemployment money was printed in the blink of an eye, and I had (apparently) no choice but to sign it there and then.  Nothing about work elsewhere or anything else.

Anyway, this bilan de compétences will take 3 months .  I'm sure it will be good for me .

[opas]

Seems to me that the functionaires at the ASSEDIC go on courses to hoodwink folks!  The story of SB and Miki could have been written by Mr O they are so alike.

12 months ago having been told `you must work one day in france` . Easy, for him indoors any way ,been there ,done that,decared his `menstrual situation` as we jokingly call it,to get the same letters as SB,sort that out with a 30 mile round trip to their office and also ask where is the allocation chomage as more than one day has been worked.....AH ,your E101 is not complete!!!!.........they have had it nearly 12 months ,and now notice a tick missing Sorted that via the correct UK dept,just waiting for the next excuse,lets see? perhaps his folder is the wrong colour,or filled the paperwork in blue instead of black or even his signature was slightly out of the box(don`t they get het up about that_____ I am sure Mr O does it on purpose!!)

happy days !

[Miki]

Seems to me that the functionaires at the ASSEDIC go on courses to hoodwink folks!  The story of SB and Miki could have been written by Mr O they are so alike.

12 months ago having been told `you must work one day in france` . Easy, for him indoors any way ,been there ,done that,decared his `menstrual situation` as we jokingly call it,to get the same letters as SB,sort that out with a 30 mile round trip to their office and also ask where is the allocation chomage as more than one day has been worked.....AH ,your E101 is not complete!!!!.........

Opas,

Oh yes, forgot all about the E301.

At first they asked him for his P45, no problems, then the E301, phoned for that and duly passed it on to the "smiley peeps " at ASSEDIC but they then demanded the annual P60.

He was told by the ones who know in the UK, "no can do, you don't need it, the E301 is all you need" This is relayed to ASSEDIC,  "OK" they say.

3 months after, they ask Ryan for his E301, remind them that they have had that form for 3 months.

They haven't had it or they have mislaid it, they can't be sure ! So phone back to Newcastle, another one sent, take son in to ASSEDIC with the new one...............................yep you guessed it, the old one is now mysteriously back in his ever growing dossier.

Ryan also gets accused of not signing monthly but now he gets an auto telephone reply to tell him if he hasn't signed on, (do you get that as well?) very good it is, even rings him up when he has signed, clever these French you know !!

Wonder what they will want next ? Mothers brother in laws, 2nd cousin's, daughters maiden name.

Now they may think that will fox us but being true brits, by eckersley, we will seek it out............. in order that they can lose it"  So as Cliff sung "but it's all in the game !!"

I'll say it is Cliff

 

[opas]

Cheers for the correction Miki, it was the E301,but you never know perhaps there is an E101 and that could be their next request!

We don`t have that auto ringback thingy....how do you get that? 

Between The problems with ASSEDIC and CPAM I havn`t got time to go to work.....another trip to Montpellier hospital next week with the youngest for checkups,that`ll be another shedload of paperwork to sort out!  not that I`m complaining

[Miki]

We don`t have that auto ringback thingy....how do you get that? 

Yeh, like we would know that !! It just happened, one day I was minding my own business when the phone rang and some French person started to tell me that I had not co-operated and had not signed this month, I went to answer him before I realised it was an auto reply thingy aimed at our son.

He got the same message last month, even though he had signed, or rather phoned to register using his key code or whatever you call it, can you do that?

Between The problems with ASSEDIC and CPAM I havn`t got time to go to work.....another trip to Montpellier hospital next week with the youngest for checkups,that`ll be another shedload of paperwork to sort out!  not that I`m complaining

Hope all goes well with the littl'un for you.

Here's a laugh.

Lyndsay is now at a small Uni/Lycée in Saint Malo. As an student at "superior stage," she is now obliged to go on  one of the student santé schemes, fair enough. She has chosen LMDE (another new acronym, I am getting close to the OZ stage, where I can't always say a whole word, my head swims with these abbs !) which because she gets a bourse (well we hope so, as they are notoriously slow in letting one know for sure) means free health care for one year.

Here's the crack, we still pay for her on our assurance santé plus of course the complementaire and to top all that she pays over 120€ a month for health cover in her part time job!!

They call that Free !! CPAM just looked at me and couldn't see what was making me laugh......... it was probably that familiar smile I guess!!

I haven't bothered to even question it with our mutuelle, why would I, I know the answer already !!