Avis d'arrêt de travail - Can we claim anything?

[Daft Doctor]

Hi, my wife is an AE with an online ebay business. She has just been discharged from hospital after a cruciate ligament repair on her knee and has been given an arrêt de travail by her surgeon for 2 months.

She has her healthcare through RSI and of course pays cotisations for her business through them. She could probably carry on her business with a little help from me, but does this arrêt de travail entitle us to claim anything and if so, how do we go about it? Any experiences or advice most gratefully received.

[NormanH]

I found this

http://www.mutuellebleue.fr/actu-et-prevention/incollableu/travailleur-independant-quelles-indemnites-en-cas-de-maladie-ou-d-accident

but have no first-hand experience.

Although not a case of  an accident there is also some useful stuff here

http://www.assurlandpro.com/assurance-professionnelle/pratique/profession/auto-entrepreneur/auto-entrepreneur-quelle-indemnisation-en-cas-d-accident-du-travail.html

[Daft Doctor]

Thanks for that info Norman, I think its not worth the bother, her turnover is very small but also especially since according to the RSI website she wouldn't be allowed out of the house between 09H00 and 11H00 then 14H00 to 16H00!!

I can just imaging trying to impose that type of regime on the multitude of sick note seeking lead swingers in the UK, hilarious! (not all benefit seekers are malingerers of course but I saw a fair few in my time on the 'front line' that's for sure)

[Pommier]

[quote user="Daft Doctor"]I can just imaging trying to impose that type of regime on the multitude of sick note seeking lead swingers in the UK, hilarious! (not all benefit seekers are malingerers of course but I saw a fair few in my time on the 'front line' that's for sure)[/quote]

Isn't the French system exactly why there are fewer 'lead swingers' in France than in the UK? Seems a good system to me - and they are allowed out to go for medical treatment!

[Hereford]

If your wife has been given an arrêt as you suggest then as far as we have understood she will be subject to the hours of the notice.  A friend here did not even work but the doctor gave her an arrêt and she was really restricted for weeks for no real reason at all.  She made no claim for benefits obviously.

We suggest you check this!

[Catalpa]

[quote user="Pommier"]Isn't the French system exactly why there are fewer 'lead swingers' in France than in the UK? Seems a good system to me - and they are allowed out to go for medical treatment![/quote]

I don't know... but I do know of someone locally signed off with depression who was confined to the house most of the day except lunchtime (of course). He lived alone and I'm really don't think being confined helped his mental state at all.

Fewer malingerers perhaps - aggravates depression at the other end of the scale?

[Lou]

But your doctor can sign to give exceptions, if going out is beneficial to your health......which would seem to apply in your example Catalpa. I don't know though if you have to request an exception, if a specialist has to request it, or if it's simply down to how nice/clued-up your own doctor is.

[Catalpa]

Perhaps ticking the box that confines one to the house during working hours (approximately) is the default setting in doctors' heads? Or, I wonder if there's an element of professional classes are not confined to barracks during the arrêt whereas tradesmen, artisans, etc, who could be malingering and (horror) working au noir during their arrêt get the confinement box ticked. Dunno.

OH is on an arrêt at the moment and he is an artisan but he has full liberty and didn't have to ask... perhaps because he's had a hip replaced (plus complications) and his surgeon prepared the arrêt. So OH's problems are known fact compared to someone who has undefined back problems (for eg).

[Chancer]

I find that so funny, someone that is not claiming any benefits or who does not even work aloowing themselves to be imprisoned in their own home because the Médécin says so!

How delightfully French.

My pal built his fermette (the whole building not the roof frame)  whilst on an arrêt de travail [:-))]

[YCCMB]

I'm just pointing out, for the Daily Mail readers amongst us, that the workshy malingerers in the Uk who are self employed are unlikely to receive any benefits if signed off sick. Speaking as someone who is self employed, I find a certain irony in the OP opining about "workshy malingerers" yet starting a thread "are we entitled to anything?". Clearly no correlation, then, between being work shy malingerer and a benefits scrounger. Of course not. Get what you are entitled to at all costs, regardless of genuine need. Or, if it's not worth having, don't put yourself out to fill in the paperwork. No sense of irony there, then.

[Rabbie]

I feel there is a difference between claiming a benefit to which you are entitled for genuine reasons and claiming for a spurious reason. I would not hesitate to claim on a private insurance policy so I can see no difference in claiming on the state system where applicable. Whether the bother of claiming is worth the benefit is for the individual claimant to decide. Personally I have no axe to grind I this matter as I have claimed only one weeks sick benefit in my life and that was forty years ago.

[YCCMB]

Nor can I see a problem with claiming. If there is a case of genuine need...

I've never in my life claimed sickness benefit. For many years whilst I was "able" to, I was in perfect health and therefore the question never arose. When I had a prolapsed disc and resultant sciatic nerve problems, I was self-employed and unable to claim anything, so I went to work whenever I could and when the pain let up enough to allow me to do so.

What really P**** me off is that one person's right to claim is assumed to be unassailable because they are who they are, but anyone else, by virtue of what? employment history, social class (heaven forfend) or just because maybe we don't like the cut of their jib, is a "workshy malingerer".

I'm not for one moment denying the existence of workshy malingerers. God knows, I've worked with some, and they were the ones who managed to turn up at the office every day to do their workshy malingering, and got paid into the bargain.[:D] But judge not lest ye be judged, and all that.

[Daft Doctor]

You can call me Betty, the reason I asked the question originally was out of curiosity as much as anything else, and also in the knowledge that French custom and practice is often quite different to that in the UK.  Fact is, for the next few weeks my OH, having had a cruciate ligament reconstruction, is in a brace, walking with great difficulty and only with crutches, and is confined to the house.  Most people would consider her as unfit for work in those circs, but because she works from home and her business does not involve a lot of fetching and carrying, we as a couple can manage, i.e. I can do most of the work for her.  Were she to be entitled to some form of sickness benefit, would she in those circumstances be a 'benefit scrounger' for claiming it, I don't think so!  As it is, her business is not our sole source of income, it gives us pocket money only.  I wasn't sure however whether a fixed amount of benefit was paid out regardless, as in the UK, or whether it is linked to previous earnings (which apparently it is).  I use these sort of situations as a learning experience about living in France, even if it is for later use, perhaps because I am both practically minded and have a hunger for such knowledge.

As for your opinion and the insult it carries, you can shove it where the sun doesn't shine.    As a GP I too was self-employed in the UK, as was my wife as a jewellery-maker, and I paid a fortune in private sickness and locum insurance on which I never made a claim.  Not only did I only have a total of 17 days off sick in 27 years of practice, but it was a major upheaval and inconvenience to patients when I did, as they usually just chose to come back when I was back to work rather than see someone else.  Neither my wife nor I ever claimed a benefit (other than child benefit) in our working lives, nor would we want to now unless it was justified and I or my OH were properly entitled to it under the rules.  Have I made my point?   [:@]

[Daft Doctor]

Just to be clear in case I have offended anyone (because I care about that sort of thing), my comments re the daily time restrictions imposed by the French sickness absence system as compared to the UK system were meant to be lighthearted and tongue in cheek, rather than deadly serious.  What I actually said in my post was, 'not all benefit seekers are malingerers of course but I saw a fair few in my time on the 'front line' that's for sure'.  I was an occupational physician for 20 years as well as a GP for 27 and there is no doubt from my knowledge and experience (over 120,000 individual consultations) that a measurable few of those on long term sickness absence were very happy to be just that and had no intention of attempting to return to work, irrespective of the nature or severity of their condition.  That however isn't meant as a swipe to the large majority of those off sick who are desperate to return to work as soon as possible.

The point made earlier about depression of course is very true, to confine someone to the house for 4 hours a day is likely to be very counterproductive, but I would equally argue that anyone with a long term condition needs the freedom to leave the 4 walls they call home to try to get some enjoyment into their lives to help them cope with their symptoms.  There is a world of difference between being fit for work and fit to do most other things in daily life, so like a number of things related to health and social care in France, the thinking is a bit rigid and arguably behind the times.  It might disuade someone from working on the black while they are ill, but it doesn't seem to me to suit any other purpose.  

[AnOther]

One time when I was due to  to go back to work offshore but had what turned out to be bronchitis I asked my doctor for a sick note.

She produced some horribly verbose triplicate A4 form and was completely bemused when I told her to put it away and just scribble me a brief note on her headed notepaper [:D]

[powerdesal]

''..................................... according to the RSI website she wouldn't be allowed out of the house between 09H00 and 11H00 then 14H00 to 16H00!! ''

Not of relevance to me but, my curiosity is piqued, how and by whom is such a restriction policed?

[NormanH]

A few years ago it was checked by a telephone call sometimes, but with the era of mobile phones that obviously doesn't work anymore..

[Catalpa]

An "official" turns up unannounced to check you're in residence. The fellow I referred to earlier (signed off with depression) had two visits in consecutive weeks. And his hours of confinement were, iIrc, 9am - midday and then 2 - 5pm... except for, as someone commented, medical appointments or verifiable appointments at the mairie with the assistante sociale, etc. It's quite onerous if someone wants to take advantage of a morning of sunshine for a brisk walk before rain sets in. But he was French and I think many French people don't like to rock the boat... outside of major grèves, manifs, etc. But then, I know mostly older (40+) people and in a very rural area so that may be a poor sample for the generalisation.

We felt very sorry for him.