friends and family helping with renovation

[stevemaison]

With all the talk on siret numbers and such like the wifes is a little worried about the brother and his mates coming over for two weeks to help with the house, is it legal ? or is it one of those things that is not legal but most people turn a blind eye to or is one of those things that you just do not do   thanks a lot steve

[zeb]

Everyone I know who is renovating has had the help, at sometime or another, of friends and/or family who have come over for a working "holiday". I shouldn't worry about it. If they are just over for a week or two from the UK and are not being paid I don't think any gendarme would try to convict them for working on the black.<

[Opel Fruit<P><BR>Opel Fruit, Dept. 53<P>]

It's more the Insurance if anyone has an accident.

The E111 may not cover working holidays.

We had a friend help us who managed to get himself electrocuted whilst here. It cost us a small fortune in medical bills.

[BJSLIV]

The E111 may not cover working holidays

And neither do most holiday insurance policies.

[Nick Trollope]

[quote]With all the talk on siret numbers and such like the wifes is a little worried about the brother and his mates coming over for two weeks to help with the house, is it legal ? or is it one of those thi...[/quote]

It's illegal (no registration & no contributions). But;

As Zeb says, who cares?

The French system may be draconian, but over-resourced it ain't. The Gendarmes have better (easier!) people to persecute.

 

[stevemaison]

Thanks it is as I thought a lot of people do it but strictly it is not legal mainly with a reference to insurence and if anyone has a accident we must say it happend not whilst at work on our house  It is a risk I will take because these guys will drink me dry so I must get something out of them (whilst sober of course)

[Peterh]

Why on earth would this be illegal? If no money is changing hands then what law is being broken? Is it seriously being suggested that it is illegal in France for neighbours, friends or relatives to help each other doing household repairs or renovations? Presumably this would cover such crimes as holding a ladder, passing a paintbrush or, God forbid, actually using one to apply some paint.

As far as I am aware the problem only arises where people are "employed" or paid to do work without the necessary registrations etc. I have had unpaid help from family, neighbours and friends (British and French) without for one moment considering that I was doing anything wrong. I shall continue to do so without losing one wink of sleep.

[Nick Trollope]

[quote]Why on earth would this be illegal? If no money is changing hands then what law is being broken? Is it seriously being suggested that it is illegal in France for neighbours, friends or relatives to he...[/quote]

Because it is!

It is not a matter of "favours" or payment, it is a matter of registration & social contributions.

I can't say I blame you for sleeping contentedly - until your neighbour falls from your roof. The hospital will be after you to pay his medical bills.

 

[Opel Fruit<P><BR>Opel Fruit, Dept. 53<P>]

"if anyone has a accident we must say it happend not whilst at work on our house "

Ha Ha. And with drink!

Sorry doctor, this guy broke both his legs and his back opening the fridge....

Sorry doctor, this guy has an acrow through his brain due to an accident during the local village "acrow throwing Fete"....

And of course, doctors are quite stupid....

[Iceni]

In the UK your mate cannot even put an addition socket on your wall unless registered as a sparks - new rules - so why should France be different.

Last week we went to see a new renovation near here. A registered French artisan was recruited to do the work.  He was working on one part of the old house and clearing an area near to the foundations for an extension - no walls to knock down etc. This house is so old that it has hand made stone tiles on the roof. The builder left on Friday, the Mayor phoned them in the UK on Saturday - the wall had fallen down and the whole house was gently sliding into a large pile of stones.

Builder gets contacted, builder phones insurers, they send specialist on Saturday who instructs builder what to do to shore up building. The insurance chap then stays with said builder until house is safe and now the building is complete and has new floors etc all paid by insurance company. If this was a 'mate' clearing an area near the foundations for your extension YOU would pay for the rebuild of your house (if there was any house left) and if it was a registered builder with no insurance - well he would go bankrupt before the work was complete unless he was better off than most builders I know.

I hope your friends and family enjoy being unpaid labour - we never go further than letting mates help clear the field - no sharp objects around. I am not paranoid but I know I could not afford to pay for someones health treatment if there was an accident - lie all you like, but once filled up with pain killing drugs people tend to only remember the truth or forget to lie - life could get interesting.

[Russethouse]

>>In the UK your mate cannot even put an addition socket on your wall unless registered as a sparks - new rules - so why should France be different.<<

Sadly true, we need an outside socket for a water feature and I know three different friends who would do this for a 'drink' literally, but I have to employ a specially registered 'sparks' who has had to update his registration at a cost of a around £2000 plus an annual fee of a couple of hundred......he has so much work its not true.

As I understand it, even if we did the work ourselves we could be fined

[Val_2]

Just to confirm that the main problem here is the accident side of things should one occur. If you are an artisan or employed and have an accident during working hours related to the job here in France, you are covered and do not pay anything for treatment. Even my son as a professional Lycée student is covered inthis way and he had a sports injury but still in school time. You cannot get out of this because you have to supply all the accident details at the hospital or doctors and then it is verified by the CPAM regarding the payment and whether you are liable for it or not. As far as I know, NO UK holiday insurances cover people for DIY or building accidents here and there have been cases where people have lost their homes to pay for hospital and ongoing treatment. The case of the old couple onthe Riviera who employed someone onthe black who cut off his thumb springs to mind. Another problem is the quality of the work especially structural where people suddenly become overnight experts when they have never done it before.

[P]

So what is the situation of the owners carrying out work who has an accident? Are they liable to the full cost of treatment?

[stevemaison]

I suppose if we follow every single rule in france we will get nowhere. at the end of the day it depends on what type of person you are. There is no roofwork to be done and plastering and painting is not that dangerous and they arrive next week all this talk of insurance makes me wonder about my own risks .Does anyone do insurance for holiday house improvers that does not cost a arm and a leg.

[Ty Korrigan]

I loath this assurance culture...

My French family and another English family regulary assist with each others projects. The French are mystified with the Brits paranoia over this. Is this not a rather over hyped urban myth that having an accident helping a friend will lead to you being nailed...?

I think its all rot put about by forum speak.

I can see French neighbour helping another neighbour with a tractor not far away... Living dangerously eh? Should be sporting a T-shirt with 'NO FEAR' printed on the front prehaps...

A naive posting I hear you say...

Well 'do it yourself' doesn't mean 'do it without friends!'                             

 

 

[Linnorton]

I couldn't agree more Ty.  It is paranoia and urban myth.  Last weekend I spent an interesting half an hour looking at French friends photos of their house renovation and they happily named all their friends and relatives in the pictures as they demolished walls, cut in window openings, re-roofed etc. I accept there are new rules on electric installation as there have always been for gas but to imply friends and family can't help with d-i-y seems ludicrous.

[zeb]

Absolutely!!

Now that the builders have finished renovating a friend's house, I'm helping her paint walls and ceilings next week for free!! Maybe someone would like to report us?

[Alane]

Travel insurance will cover you for work on your house - at least my annual policy does. I checked with the brokers and restrictions are that I'm not covered if using machinery or am more than 5 metres high on a ladder.

Regards

Alan E.

 

[Val_2]

I'm not talking about painting,decorating or plastering etc, the simple DIY things, but work that is structural,specialist,high or just downright dangerous without the correct equipment and knowledge. No one is going to bat an eyelid about decorating and as long as you pay no wages for anything carried out there is no proof as to who has done the work anyway. Just remember that real hefty building work carried out by unregistered workers will incurr the wrath of URSSAF and in cases of accidents there will be a compulsory visit by L'Inspecteur de Travail to assess the case in order for the CPAM to pay any medical redress. The french are paranoid too about payment in kind and you will find many won't let unregistered workers do anything that can be seen by the neighbours or from the road as people here so jealous and report to the gendarmes for the least thing and I speak from having this happen to us.

[Ty Korrigan]

Even I listen to Val...

[Ty Korrigan]

Even I listen to Val...

[Peterh]

We have the misfortune to have a real criminal type living next door and he keeps doing things like cutting our grass and hedges, putting up fences for us and planting a hedge as well as fixing a door that was damaged in a storm.  A local farmer is as bad or even worse.   He brought a tractor and trailer onto our land and took away all the spoil from a bac a sable that was being installed for us to save it lying on a heap on the garden.  All these things have been done without any request on our part and when we have not even been there and without any payment.  Are we guilty or is it just them? What should we do? I think that we will have to look for a house somewhere else before the law catches up with them (and us).  Ought I to report them before someone else does?

I am curious to know the law that is being broken.  If anyone can point me to it I would be grateful.  In this country I suspect that it would be contrary to something like The Anti-Social Behaviour (Being a Good Neighbour) Act but I'm not too good on French law. But I know a man (or woman rather) who is.

Peter

[pinkfluff<P>Big Wet Drops and Lots of Them, Are a Sure Sign of Rain!<P>]

I thiink some people who come to live in France get a little frightened by it all instead of living like the French they feel being English we have to do things to the letter of the law and whilst the French break every small law we have to be more careful and not do so  Well I say if we are going to intergrate into this lovely country we should learn that some little daft rules need to be broken and "WHEN IN ROME LIVE LIKE THE ROMANS" so dont tell me you have managed to fully intergrate and then not do as your neighbours do and if a leaves want burning burn them carefully or a neighbour or friend offers to help with a bit work  accept it graciously

[whipitup]

Ooop........

Just bought a place in SW France (in June) and we have had some English builders over there for the last three weeks. They have been knocking down partition walls, converting the loft, re-wiring, re-plumbing etc, etc.

Their plan is spend a month out there, go home for a month and then spend another month finishing off.

Now, it never even occurred to me that using Brit builders would be a problem (as we are in the E.U.), our Estate Agents (who are Irish, but have lived there for 10 years) never said it would be a problem, the local Mayor said we could do what we want inside the house without permission ............

After reading the above thread, to be honest I'm crapping myself

I just hope we can get the renovation work done without any trouble, as trying to get French resident builders to do the work is almost impossible.

 

Comments ?

[BJSLIV]

I liken your situation to speeding. Its against the law but most people get away with it. But then they complain when they get caught. The problem is that nobody really knows what the probability of getting caught is, either for illegal building work or for speeding.

Legally you have a few risky elements.

Just bought a place in SW France (in June) and we have had some English builders over there for the last three weeks. They have been knocking down partition walls, converting the loft, re-wiring, re-plumbing etc, etc.

Anybody doing building work in France for reward  is by law required to be registered in France

Their plan is spend a month out there, go home for a month and then spend another month finishing off.

Now, it never even occurred to me that using Brit builders would be a problem (as we are in the E.U.), our Estate Agents (who are Irish, but have lived there for 10 years) never said it would be a problem, the local Mayor said we could do what we want inside the house without permission ............

There is mobility of labour and goods within the EU ie an English builder can work for a French company, an English company can supply goods, but to work withing France you have to be registered.

A further problems is that if you are converting a loft, ie changing from unusable to habitable space, then that requires permission in writing from the DDE, as does the insertion/enlargement of any external doors or windows. If you are simply renovating then you don't need permission. Others on this forum have got into trouble for accepting the word of Le Maire.

After reading the above thread, to be honest I'm crapping myself

I just hope we can get the renovation work done without any trouble, as trying to get French resident builders to do the work is almost impossible.

If you have any awkward neighbours who report you, or naturally  inquisitive Gendarmes it is not unknown for them to call in for a chat to find out what is going on.

But as I said nobody really knows how great the risk is.