puzzled why copper pipe is still used so much in plumbing when...

[friend of stouby]

...when push together platic pipe is readily available?

Is it only due to cost or some other factor I'm not aware of?

[andyh4]

Tradition and the fact that an artisan works in copper, whereas any idiot (even me) can work in plastic.

[Gluestick]

Is it because for heating (for example) the heat makes the pipe really expand? bearing in mind that the pressurised system allows the heating water to reach a higher temp. than an open vented system.

Opel Fruit's lead post shows this very dramatically in the pics! Couldn't use the plastic when it is exposed: as most retro-fit heating has to be, with solid floors, tiles and etc.

 

[friend of stouby]

 

The reason I asked the question in the first place was I had started to read Hepworths technical web site re their Hep2o plastic pipe  http://www.hep2o.co.uk/

It did appear that as a practical person (well nearly) I could plumb the majority of our new home yet it didn't appear as though many around this forum did that even though many are/have renovated their properties.

The obvious benefit of no labour charges would negate the material cost by a bit...and I usually turn up to do my own work when I'm supposed to!               

Not sure about the comment on when a pipe run is exposed, take it you mean if it was exposed and expanded rather than the visual aspect?

Is it possible that the later generation pipe and fittings has overcome some of the problems with expansion?...hope so as I have a mental block on soldering and welding!! 

Thanks for your input

[Gluestick]

F of Stouby:

I meant exposed along the inside walls. If they expanded as much as the pics in Opal Fruit's posting, here

http://www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/586933/ShowPost.aspx

it would look pretty awful!

 

[steve]

the use of copper pipe to an experienced tradesman is to me as easy as using the now easy to use push fit systems.(a lot of  do it yourselfers want to have a go , and why not. if you can do it yourself, why pay somebody else to )

the one disadvantage i have experienced is that you need to secure plastic piping more frequently and when connected to valves etc (ie washing machine) they are still quite flexible, whereas in copper they would be rigid and easier to connect to flexible hoses.

i think that there is an amount of self satisfaction looking at some soldered pipework, neat and tidy. a job well done and there to stay.

thats not saying that copper will outlive the plastic,thats debatable for the next how ever many years but if you put the two side by side, i am sure that the majority of  tradesmen will prefer to use copper.

after all, not everybody can do it . hence plastic pipe and fittings ! good luck to everybody using it and dont get too close to the boiler ! ! !

[Ron Avery]

Of course you do know that the French domestic water pressure is quite a bit higher than the UK's, so your push together plastic pipes may just push apart one day[:)]

I would have thought that copper pipe lasts longer than plastic, over time plastic pipes, well certainly waste pipes, gets brittle.  A good plumber can do a lot more with French copper pipe than with plastic piping.  When our shower was re-plumbed it was all done with just lengths of copper pipe, no joint pieces or any kind to be seen, usually only T pieces would be necessary in a domestic situation. Jointing is done by fluting out the ends (French pipe is thicker than UK pipe) and just soldering the other pipe inside this "joint".[:)]

[Quillan]

I too am amazed that it is not used much. I have used HEP products for years but mainly in the boating world in a 6 bar plus pressurized environment. It's light weight, easy to use and much quicker than copper to install. It would be ideal to use in more modern houses in France as it is so simple to push through ducting and you don't need gange where it comes out of the walls to protect it against bend damage.

The only issue I would be worried about is heat and pressure. I believe it is only safe to 3 bar at 100 deg C but 6 bar at 90 deg C so you need to set your hot water tanks to run no more than 90 deg.

There is a distributer in France I believe but you can always get it from Yacht Chandlers although put the word Yacht in front of anything (well in the UK anyway) and you add 40% on the price. Even Sun Seekers use it in their £3M boats and they are VERY fussy about quality. I have never heard of any breaking, it is better in frost and I bet you can put it together quicker than the best French plumber any day of the week.

[Anton Redman]

<<  Of course you do know that the French domestic water pressure is quite a bit higher than the UK's, so your push together plastic pipes may just push apart one day  >>

First thing you do is fit a pressure reduction valve to limit you to three bar even if you are using braised copper. PER with a manifold is now my preferred system.

[Quillan]

HEP2 will take 100 deg C at 3 bar and as I said 6 at 90 deg C so no pressure reduction is required.

[andyh4]

Ron,

plastic waste pipe is genreally PVC or occasionally Polypropylene.  The former suffers from the leachin gof the plasticisers due to continued use of cleaning and bleaching agents - and hence goes brittle. 

The new water pipe systems are in Polybutene.  Behaves very differenty to PVC, will not be in comtact with cleaning agents and will probably outlive copper

[fulcrum]

I prefer copper piping using good quality compression joints. It can be dismantled easily and rerouted if you need to change your mind.

Also on the subject of water pressure. I think it's advisable in France to have a pressure regulator on all installations as it doesn't add that much to the total install costs and you can know precisely what the pressure will be.

[P]

Why not copper pipe with push-fit connectors?

Bulkier than soldered connectors but some are good to 16bar.

There is also a new prodct coming to the market whereby the fitting is crimped so is less bulky - if you have the confidence in it.

Paul

[Cinzia]

Not sure why copper pipe is still used in preference to plastic, but a word of warning.  If you use plastic pipe, do make sure that any brass fittings (ball valves/isolation valves etc.) are suitable for use on plastic pipe.