English solicitors when buying French property

[francophil]

Is it worth instructing English solicitors when you're buying French property?

 

Francophil

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Val_2]

Why? You only need a french notaire for the purchasing process. Save your hard earned money and not waste it on foreigners who probably are not qualified to give info on french property purchasing. I have seen so many postings on forums from folks who wished they had saved their monies as they got no real help at all.  If you are worried about the property itself, you need a good professional builder or surveyor who knows their stuff to tell you what is wrong with the place,not a solicitor.

[Jacqui Too]

HI

In our case we had a English lawyer specialising in French property to look over our final contract as we wanted peace of mind that we had not missed anything out or were signing something we were not fully aware of.

She went through the contract and liased with the notaire on several points.

She then translated the whole contract to us (our French is not up to understanding legal French).

We were charged £500.00 and we felt it was money well spent, we had a very good knowlege of the buying process before we started so we felt that we could manage it ourselves, but in the final couple of weeks we wanted to be sure things were alright

Had we got the lawyer involved at the first contract stage it would have cost us about £1500-£1700 for the whole lot.

But if you are not 100% confident about the buying process then I would recomend useing one

Chipie 

[Jc]

It is often cheaper to ask a French-speaking solicitor(or UK Notaire-yes,there are some) to read the contract but not translate it-they can then tell you if there is anything contentious.

[marina]

Normally it is not necessary, and can sometimes do little more than add to the delay, frustration and cost. If you are a natural worrier, or you do not trust the notaire, agent, seller etc, then an independent English-speaking adviser can be a good investment.

 

[united]

I guess it all depends on the level of risk you are willing to accept. I would guess 99% of French property transactions go through without a hitch as in the UK. If you fall into the 1% you will wish you had some back up of a lawyer who is both 100% au fait (use not an affectation - see earlier posts!) and who is authorised by The Law Society.

If you are spending 10s or 100s of thousands £500 or whatever is a small insurance premium. You may never need it as your purchase may run smoothly so it will be money down the drain however if it prevents you from entering into a purchase you may regret for months and years it will be one of the best investments you have ever made.

Good luck with your purchase.

[Jacqui Too]

[quote user="Val_2"]Why? You only need a french notaire for the purchasing process. Save your hard earned money and not waste it on foreigners who probably are not qualified to give info on french property purchasing.

Obviously you should only use Lawers who specialise in French property

 I have seen so many postings on forums from folks who wished they had saved their monies as they got no real help at all.

Well obviously they did not go to the right people

  If you are worried about the property itself, you need a good professional builder or surveyor who knows their stuff to tell you what is wrong with the place,not a solicitor.[/quote]

Yes having a good professional builder and or surveyor is fine for spotting property related pitfalls but is no use if you need legal advice.

In our case two weeks before the final signing we received a draft copy of the Acte de Vente an 18 page document made up of French legal gobledegutch which we did not understand, I tried translating it with various internet translation sites, in the end we either employed someone who understood it or waited untill the day of signing to have it translated by our agent when it would have been to late to do anything about it.

If you are a competent French speaker I think it can make all the difference, we were not.

Also I might add that I have seen many posts on this forum where people have come unstuck and wish they had had some sort of legal advice in their own language

Chipie

[P-D de Rouffignac]

After working several years in the property business here I have seen this question raised many times, along with unhelpful comments like "never use a French notaire recommened by the agent" etc etc.

As people replying to your question have already pointed out, at best a UK based solicitor can check and perhaps translate the paperwork, but without knowing intimately the area, the property, its history, any likely developments that might prejudice its value etc, he/she cannot be of much practical help.

You have presumably already an idea of the value of what you are buying and as others have suggested can have a survey done in the interests of practical reassurance.

As well as helping clients, I am now going through the throes of a complicated transaction as vendor of my own home and the purchaser of another (substituted at the last minute as the original intended purchase fell through due to planning problems). All I can say is that the agents and the local notaires' office have been magnificent, including doing all they can to get the new purchase through in two weeks (!) as I am currently squatting in my old home (sold last Friday) with kind permission of the purchasers, and waiting to move into the new one.

In smaller French communities in particular, many formal transactions rely on personal contacts and longstanding friendships, and it is possible to miss these nuances unless you are reasonably integrated into local life. That said, the property buying and selling business is rigorously controlled under French law and as already stated most transactions go through without a hitch.

I hope this is of some comfort.

Peter-Danton de ROUFFIGNAC

 

[alnmike]

We used and English speaking French lawyer, as I had been married before and we wanted reassurance that we were purchasing using the most effective regime.

[cooperlola]

On balance I think I would prefer an English speaking Notaire to a UK solicitor.  The critical thing is knowledge of the way things work on this side of the channel, IMHO.

[Jacqui Too]

The firm of lawyers we used are specialists in French Law and the lady advises on legal issues in some of the French magazines. I agree I would not use an English lawyer who did not have full knowledge of the French legal system, and to suggest that only someone from France would have the knowledge is a little unfare.

We were actually congratulated by our notaire on our choice of lawyer, he was very impressed with HER  professional conduct (more surprised if you ask me) 

Chipie

[Cerise]

As we wanted to be absolutely sure that we had the inheritance things tied up properly and at the time my husband spoke no French we used an English speaking notaire as well as the vendors notaire.  No extra cost, the notaires share the fee, no hassle - if vendors notaire had spoken English and/or understood what we wanted to do we wouldn't have bothered and would have simply used the same one.

[cooperlola]

[quote user="Chipie"]

The firm of lawyers we used are specialists in French Law and the lady advises on legal issues in some of the French magazines. I agree I would not use an English lawyer who did not have full knowledge of the French legal system, and to suggest that only someone from France would have the knowledge is a little unfare.

We were actually congratulated by our notaire on our choice of lawyer, he was very impressed with HER  professional conduct (more surprised if you ask me) 

Chipie

[/quote]Certainly, there is absolutely no reason why an English solicitor should not be totally cognisant of the situation on this side of the channel.  My own point was that the critical things here seem to me to be : In-depth knowledge of the laws of France and an ability to communicate the finer points to the client.  If both those things apply then I can't see a problem.  Equally, there is also no reason why an English speaking notaire should not fit the bill either.

[marina]

My only reservation about notaires is that they are all government officials, although they are independent rather than actually employed by the government. Thus they do tend to stick together. If you are having a problem with the notaire handling the sale, then another notaire is likely to be rather cautious about exposing the first notaires incompetence or corruption. Yes, unfortunately there are some dodgy notaires in France, who are mostly allowed to get away with it through the old pals brigade. Notaires and agents, particularly if there is something underhand going on between them, also tend to stick together. I dont want to make it sound as if all lawyers and agents in France are corrupt, most are perfectly honest, but having worked in the property business myself I know that such things do go on in isolated cases, and these are just the sort of cases when a British buyer is likely to need to take advice.

A non-French lawyer who is independent of the French system, but has a comprehensive knowledge of it, may well serve you better under those circumstances.

[P-D de Rouffignac]

I get extremely annoyed when I read generalisations about the behaviour, practices or standards of French notaires or estate agents, and would be interested to know on what sort of statistics are they based.

In the UK the latest report on the complaints procedure of the Law Society notes that in 2005 the Society received over 9,000 (nine thousand) new cases of complaint in that year alone.

If you can find similar information for France, I am sure Forum members would be pleased to hear of it.

In my original reply to this posting I tried to stress that the value of the local French notaire is not just his/her competence in law but local knowledge - of the property, the environment, planning consents that might influence etc etc.

Peter-Danton de ROUFFIGNAC MA LLM

[LanguedocGal]

P-D de R, I can see that you are in the law but am amazed you pooh pooh adverse comments about the French legal system.The fact that the reports of complaints do not exist (or perhaps figures not as high as UK or you simply haven’t seen them) may simply imply that people have little faith in such a procedure. 

If I had had any confidence in such a process, I would have made a complaint about a completely incompetent Huissier de Justice whose shabby work cost me dear in 2005.  Also had a friend of mine had faith in a complaints procedure, she would have gone against a number of lawyers who refused to represent her because they did not want to come up against the judge who had taken a pathetic case against her (neighbour issue). She initially started off by having to get a lawyer from Paris but through ‘contacts’ found a ‘left-wing’ lawyer in her town who hated the judge in question. I mentioned left-wing because the French people who advised her (correctly) said that was a very important factor. She listened to them, engaged him and won the case.

The system here is extremely intimidating because the old boy’s network smacks you in the face if you need to go against it. Neither of us would have hesitated to go down the formal complaints route had we been in the UK. The fact that we didn’t, doesn’t mean they were competent or that we were satisfied.

After almost 4 years, my purchase papers still state (despite numerous reminders) that the female owner I bought from is a 'monsieur', her husband a 'madame' and me a 'monsieur'.  Mais Franchement! How difficult is that to put right?!

I spent some time in the USSR in the early 80s and remember hearing that there were no alcoholics or rapes in the country. Well, there weren’t any figures to contradict them, so all was honky dory.[:@]

[marina]

And I get extremely annoyed by the activities of certain so-called professionals, in Britain as well as in France, who con the unsuspecting customer and give the reputable members of the profession a bad name. P-D de R MA LLM - read my post. I don't see how you can interpret my references to 'isolated cases' as being generalisations. Anybody who has worked in, or followed, the business knows that these things go on, at least they do in northern France, and from what LG says I suspect in other regions too. They are mostly covered up, with the societe de notaires (about the nearest equivalent to the Law Society) being far less open and not publishing figures. I suspect you know that anyway. There was a book by Alan Biggins (Selling French Dreams) that gave a very good account of some of the things that go on, both legally and illegally, and although it was written a few years ago, not everything has changed. I too could quote some specific examples but I see that the forum has rules that prevent this.

If you bother to read what I wrote you will see that I said the majority of agents and notaires were perfectly honest. Not only that, they are knowledgeable, helpful and professional so I would have thought it would be in all of their interests to clamp down on the very small minority who are less straightforward but do damage to the reputation of the French property business far out of all proportion to their numbers.

I stand by my view that in most circumstances involving extra lawyers merely adds to the time, expense and hassle of buying a house. But occasionally the use of a non-French specialist is justified, and I have recommended it myself in the past.

 

[AnOther]

To get back to the OP, I don't think there is a Yes or No answer to your question. Much depends on what you are buying, from whom, through whom, and if it is a "clean" sale or there are complications.

We bought our relatively modern (70's) house from a nice French lady through a highly reputable English agent and if were not for an ongoing servitude (right of way) dispute we would have been happy to go without any outside assistance but because of this, and although our Notaire spoke understandable, if somewhat bizarre, English we decided to instruct a solicitor in UK.

We engaged Pretty's in Ipswich, who were both reasonably close us to and also employ a lady solicitor who is native French. Through her we got several small but important points cleared up and also precise translations of the Compromis and Act de Vent. We also got a more complete picture of what the disputes had been about and also the ongoing one. Yes it cost us some money but we don't begrudge it because we now know a lot of things about our property which otherwise we wouldn't have, and if nothing else it gave us peace of mind.

As I say then, IMHO it's really a matter for you to decide in the event. 

[darnsarf]

 As others have said, I think the decision depends a great deal on your own personal circumstances (marital status, children, etc), 1st time buyer in France, knowledge of french language and the kind of property you are buying. I also took some comfort from the fact that if I received poor advice/process from a UK lawyer (french department of a UK practise), then I could sue them rather more confidently than I could if it were all arranged in France....! It cost a lot more to use a UK lawyer ( who was also a qualified Avocat) since the Notaire is always going to be part of the process.

We had some inheritance issues, some potential worries about the property and rights of way, unclear boundaries etc. Although my french was just about OK to understand the sale documents, I felt  more at ease using a UK based firm and think that the peace of mind it gave was worth the extra cost. I got the feeling though that the Notaires weren't very happy about the UK lawyer involvement (and were certainly very jealous of their fees!). The UK lawyers also helped keep the momentum up. We also had the Vendor's Notaire doing some of the work and another Notaire working on our behalf. This became a bit complicated in terms of communication (further coloured by the fact that the Notaires had plenty of 'history' and disliked each other intensely).

On balance I'd recommend a UK lawyer working with your interests in mind. But they have to be specialists in french property issues. Hope this helps.