robbie Posted December 16, 2007 Share Posted December 16, 2007 I have recently installed some eqpt to my heating (Frost and pipe stat along with a timer) but the existing wiring between the main on/off switch on the wall and the boiler had a red connected to the earth wire behind the main two pole switch. White went to Neutral and Black went to Live.Is this 'normal'??The wire feeding the two pole switch from the consumer unit was correct (in my mind) red-live, blue-neutral, grn-earthAs I didnt have time to find out the answer while I was in France last week, I have connected the wires back again using the existing 'convention' and it does work fine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Trollope Posted December 16, 2007 Share Posted December 16, 2007 No it isn't, nor is it particularly safe. Obviously, the person who did the original wiring did not know what he was doing! I would either replace the existing wiring, change the colours with some insulating tape, stuff a note behind the wiring or remember it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gyn_Paul Posted December 16, 2007 Share Posted December 16, 2007 I've come across black and white for live and neutral quite often in old wiring. It could have been installed any time from the early post-war years, up to the 70s. You were lucky to find an earth wire at all!I've just stripped out some very old wiring from the loft - circa 1750 with wattle-and-daub insulation - which was either faded grey or olive green originally, a colour you never see today, because of the possibility of confusion with the y/g earth wire.p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Le_Jars Posted December 16, 2007 Share Posted December 16, 2007 Blimey! Electricity in 1750! Do the historians know about this? [;-)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomoss Posted December 16, 2007 Share Posted December 16, 2007 Believe it or not, red wire was used for earth on Italian equipment some years ago (ca 1970), as I discovered when our workers complained about getting shocks from Italian-made hand held equipment they were using. The plugs had been replaced to fit our outlets, and the red wire, not unreasonably for someone not aware of this, had been connected to live.Was your boiler maybe made long ago in Italy?I suggest you trace where the red wire goes to from the switch connection. If it does go to earth you should replace it with a yellow/green wire, or tape it with yellow/green electrical tape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gluestick Posted December 16, 2007 Share Posted December 16, 2007 Red was always common for the phase: and black for the neutral. And green for earth.Same with equipment wiring until circa 1971/2 in the UK.And thereafter, of course, installed hard wired (house) wiring on single phase domestic, was Red (phase), Black (Neutral), until the EU regs changed - again!Can't remember when UK hard wiring switched over.Wasn't 1760 though..............................................................[Www] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John L Posted December 16, 2007 Share Posted December 16, 2007 North America uses/used white=neutral black=phase green=earth. The original reasoning was because white is a neutral colour and black indicates something burnt. I had never heard of the Italians using red for earth though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gyn_Paul Posted December 16, 2007 Share Posted December 16, 2007 I think the best advice to anyone picking through the bones of old and dodgy wiring is don't take anything for granted, and check everything with a mains tester screwdriver first.pperhaps it was just slightly later than 1750... I exaggerate for effect ![:P]p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbie Posted December 16, 2007 Author Share Posted December 16, 2007 thanks guys for the responses, it only confirms my thoughts that the guy wasnt really sure of what he was doing, probably not an electrician.I have traced the wires and all 'seems' fine except for the colour convention and the fact that Live and Neutral are reveresed on the pump. The system has probably been working fine for years and I didnt have time to alter/rewire to a true convention due to time restraints. As I am the only one likel yot work on the wiring over the coming years I will change it when I get time later next year.To complete the work, I made the simple decision to insert all of my wiring and equipment between the two pole switch and the flex, then pickup the existing wiring 'as is' and it did work fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deimos Posted December 17, 2007 Share Posted December 17, 2007 I remember ages ago in the UK when wiring light circuits I put coloured sleeving round one of the cables that could carry live but could not be the correct colour because of the two cores being different colours, etc.. How do the French feel about coloured sleeving ?Ian(And many thanks in advance for any responses - don't want to upset anybody by being late saying thank you). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomoss Posted December 17, 2007 Share Posted December 17, 2007 I've not seen any coloured sleeving used here. The only coloured sleeving my local electrical wholesaler has is heat-shrink sleeving, which is quite expensive. I'm sure someone has it tho'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gyn_Paul Posted December 17, 2007 Share Posted December 17, 2007 As far as I know, for wiring, the only absolutes are: -Neutral MUST be blueBlue must ONLY be used for neutralEarth MUST be yellow/green*Yellow/green must ONLY be used for earth (natch)The corollary to this last is that neither green nor yellow cables are available in France these days* so uk-type red and black twin+earth with its unsleeved earth wire (and its black-for-neural) is also a no-no.p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnOther Posted December 17, 2007 Share Posted December 17, 2007 I've been watching this thread with some interest because I'm convinced that whoever wired my relatively modern (70's) house must have been clueless and also totally colour blind.At various places around the house I have combinations of red, black, blue, white, yellow, mauve and a few green\yellows.I say a few green\yellows because for whatever reason (and I cannot think of one) there are no earth's in the lounge or hall sockets, they aren't even 3 pin outlets, yet the bedrooms and kitchen are and are earthed.In my fuse box there is a piece of choc-bloc with something like 6 or 8 reds twisted together and stuffed into it then a single (same gauge !) wire off to the breaker. This is the circuit for virtually all my sockets except the kitchen. And this is all supposed to be better\safer than a good old ring main is it ?Frankly it needs a rewire with a bigger fuse box, a bit of a shocker for such a modern property. At least everything is in conduit.Another task for the burgeoning "To Do" list then [;-)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugsy Posted December 17, 2007 Share Posted December 17, 2007 Whoever wired our house (it was done professionally (a loose term) ) solved the problem of colours.Every wire that I've so far seen is PURPLE......[:-))] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ford Anglia Posted December 17, 2007 Share Posted December 17, 2007 [quote user="Bugbear"]Whoever wired our house (it was done professionally (a loose term) ) solved the problem of colours.Every wire that I've so far seen is PURPLE......[:-))][/quote]Good grief! I thought I had problems with TWO blue wires going to the fusebox. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbie Posted December 17, 2007 Author Share Posted December 17, 2007 Looks like I got off lightly then cos I can only see this bit of wiring which is wrong....The rest is fine I think and even this boiler wiring is 'fine' apart from the colour convention used[:D] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gluestick Posted December 17, 2007 Share Posted December 17, 2007 About time Steve Diesel posted another one of his wonderful pics of ten zillion wires going into a huge junction box!On the point of Steve: he's not beeon "On" recently: anyone know if he's OK? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gyn_Paul Posted December 17, 2007 Share Posted December 17, 2007 since we're doing horror stories...I took the front off our fuse box when we moved in a couple of years ago to find that the little uninsulated metal strip below the breakers which makes a common rail or 'bus' for the earths, was accompanied by an identical one - probably canibalised from another fuse box - used to make a bus bar to feed lives to the various breakers! In addition to being uninsulated, it was unanchored and the natural flexibility of the wires had caused it to twist in the small free space and was at that time about 1mm from shorting on the earth bus.This is not the first time I've encountered a mare's nest of wires in a tableau, which leads me to ask; are the copper connecting strips used to join all the phases and all neutrals a new innovation, or have they been available as long as there have been modules?p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnOther Posted December 17, 2007 Share Posted December 17, 2007 [quote user="Gluestick"]About time Steve Diesel posted another one of his wonderful pics of ten zillion wires going into a huge junction box!On the point of Steve: he's not beeon "On" recently: anyone know if he's OK? [/quote]I remember it................!Perhaps Steve is in counselling. What with being paid in $ with which he then has to buy € I think he might be in need of it [;-)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveTheLight Posted December 23, 2007 Share Posted December 23, 2007 [quote user="ErnieY"]I've been watching this thread with some interest because I'm convinced that whoever wired my relatively modern (70's) house must have been clueless and also totally colour blind.At various places around the house I have combinations of red, black, blue, white, yellow, mauve and a few green\yellows....[/quote]FWIW Many may say that 70's wiring is no longer considered 'modern'. Standard cable colours at that time were Red, Black, Green some lighting cables had Red, Yellow and Blue cores. The yellow in this cable replaced white in the late 60s or early 70s. Purple has never been a "recognised" colour but it did exist in some signal and control cables with all rainbow colours to signify the 7th conductor in the cable. All UK wiring colours changed in 2005 to "Harmonise" the UK with Europe. Brown replaced Red (Live and phase 1) - Blue replaced Black (Neutral), Black replaced Yellow (Live phase 2) Grey replaced Blue (Live phase 3). This means that black has changed from neutral to live and blue changed from live to neutral - just to confuse everyone and we how have to place a notice at the consumer unit saying that the colours may be mixed if we install new cables in an old installation.I have gathered that much of France is non-polarised as they don't differentiate between Live and Neutral at socket outlets (the MCBs in the consumer unit disconnects both Live & Neutral). I'm sure that the colours should remain consistent throughout the installation but as the socket isn't polarised the 'correct' colour is not as significant as in a polarised socket such as in the UK. The only way to be sure is to test every time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil & Pat Posted December 23, 2007 Share Posted December 23, 2007 [quote user="SteveTheLight"][quote user="ErnieY"]I've been watching this thread with some interest because I'm convinced that whoever wired my relatively modern (70's) house must have been clueless and also totally colour blind.At various places around the house I have combinations of red, black, blue, white, yellow, mauve and a few green\yellows....[/quote] The only way to be sure is to test every time. [/quote]When we were buying our house the previous owner ignored a billfrom EDF that was due before the sale. When we arrived (in darkestcoldest February) we found that EDF had disconnected us at the poleoutside the house - both phase and neutral. When they reconnected usthey managed to swap over the wires, so all blue wires became live andall red wires became neutral. A bit confusing until I worked out whathad happened.And I still test every time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powerdesal Posted December 24, 2007 Share Posted December 24, 2007 [quote user="Gluestick"]About time Steve Diesel posted another one of his wonderful pics of ten zillion wires going into a huge junction box!On the point of Steve: he's not beeon "On" recently: anyone know if he's OK? [/quote]Hi,Still here, just a bit busy. No more horror pics at the moment but the latest saga was a frantic phone call from OH (in France, me in UAE), she was standing barefoot on damp tiles and brushed against the corrugated ss outlet pipe from the water heater and got a 'tingle'. Guess what - no earth, why am I not surprised? The old part of the house is definitley a case of "dont touch the steelwork". Another urgent job for the next visit.Needless to say, the house has been left with the mains switched off.ps No counselling, just resigned to fate and faint hope of a stronger dollar - Ins'Allah[:(] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gluestick Posted December 26, 2007 Share Posted December 26, 2007 Good to hear that you are OK, Steve.Christmas stuck in the Emirates, thought! [:(]Hope your OH is OK. Best wishes for 2008. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anton Redman Posted December 26, 2007 Share Posted December 26, 2007 The great fun is when you switch off at the mains and then discover that end bedroom is actually wired from the next door neighbours.When I was stuck in Saudi I used to dream of escaping to the Emirates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powerdesal Posted December 27, 2007 Share Posted December 27, 2007 Now I dream of escaping to France on a permanent basis.Best wishes to all for 2008. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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