Fitting kitchen wall cupboards

[CeeJay]

In the process of redisigning our kitchen which will (may) involve putting up wall cupboards. However I notice that the interior wall where we would like to put the wall cupboards is built from those hollow red brick thingys about 10cm thick. I would expect the wall cupboards when full to be quite hefty and I am not sure the relatively thin walls of the bricks would take the weight. I suppose it could be possible to part rest them on a batten fixed underneath in addition to their fixing points, but I guess asthetics play a big part of this. I would be interested to hear how others have overcome this problem.

[gosub]

The red brick walls will take the weight  no problem, think about plasterboard walls, but you will need to fit the correct wall plugs for the mountings. During installation you can use a batten as you suggest to make things easier for yourself to mount the cupboards and keep them level, it can be removed afterwards.

[Dick Smith]

Or use a French cleat - a batten almost the width of the unit which has its lower edge chamfered to 45 degrees (sloping back towards the wall) which slips onto a mirror image cleat firmly screwed to the wall.

Have a look here to see what I mean.

[powerdesal]

I have used the cleat method for years but never knew they were called "French" cleats.

[Dick Smith]

Cheesy Churchill impersonation: "Oh yes!"

[Gluestick]

[quote user="gosub"]The red brick walls will take the weight  no problem, think about plasterboard walls, but you will need to fit the correct wall plugs for the mountings. During installation you can use a batten as you suggest to make things easier for yourself to mount the cupboards and keep them level, it can be removed afterwards.
[/quote]

Interested to know what the correct wall plugs are, please?

My house in France was rebuilt by the previous owner and he replaced the original torshe (??) walls with double blockwork, using the red baked terracota honecombed blocks.

They are a total B****r to achieve a firm fixing into!

I have recently fitted all new wooden shutters (Nine X 2 + 3 X 1) and have had serious problems fixing screw-in arrete bergeres (the little cast black iron retainers), even to the point of designing a new fixing!

Which works.

The problem is firstly the briques are extremely brittle and therefore impossible to drill a clean hole into: and secondly, any attempt to in-fill the hole, is defeated by the in-fill material simple dropping into the surrounding honeycombe spaces!

I searched diligently through every French and British catalogue for something suitable without success.

Fischer's HD plugs simply don't work as when they expand, they expand into the gaps!

I would be extremely dubious of hanging wall cupboards with any weight, without recourse to perhaps chasing out the wall and sinking a pair of (minimum) 2 X 2 uprights or cross stringers into the wall firstly, where necessary and cementing this over before hanging the cupboard and re-finishing.

Using a French Cleat would be fine: if this itself could enjoy a firm fixing first of all!

But then that's back to the same problem.......................

 

[powerdesal]

I dont think "wall plugs" is the correct description. Hollow fittings may be the answer. Something along the lines of "butterfly bolts" as they are known here. Or possibly the type that you put the fitting in place complete with bolt and then tighten it to crush the casing back against the inner face, then remove the bolt and leave the threaded insert in place. Fit the cleat using the original bolt screwed back into the captive insert.

Use plenty of them to reduce the pullout force on the hollow block face. Most of the force is vectored to a vertical shear force anyway.

see:  www.screwfix.com/search.do;jsessionid=0CEMUJN4LEEZ0CSTHZOSFFI?_dyncharset=UTF-8&fh_search=hollow+wall+fixings

[PaulT]

When I built a stud wall I was faced with this problem.....

The ceiling was a layer of these bricks with concrete poured over the top of them. The wall were constructed of similar bricks.

I purchased the fixings that are a threaded plate that have two nylon strips attached via a circular piece of plastic (sorry can find an illustration). Drilled a 13mm hole, inserted them in, pulled the stips to bring the plate flat against the other side of the brick, cut off the strips (the circular part retains it) and then used studding to fix items.

Paul

 

[Will]

I agree with Steve - and I'm a long way from being a DIY expert, which means that if even I can successfully do something it must be OK. Either the gravity or spring metal toggles (see http://www.diydata.com/materials/wallfix/hollow_wall_fix.php) work perfectly in the hollow red terracotta blocks commonly used in France. And as they spread the load, they can take a considerable weight. With this type of fixing the roundness of the hole is not critical, but I find an SDS drill with a bit in good condition makes a very nice hole in these blocks.

[powerdesal]

To be honest Will, I would not use an SDS, I find that the nasty red blocks have a habit of totally fracturing under the hammer impact.

A good TCT stone drill and no hammer action, it will take a little longer but you dont run the risk of massive broken holes or, what is worse, fractured blocks that you dont know are fractured until the fixing comes away with half the wall.

The spring toggle fixings probably have the edge as they are not as dependent on the perfect roundness and diameter of the hole in the same way that the "crush" fixings are.

[Gluestick]

Sorry to be a difficult bunny, chaps, but these honeycombed briques aren't the same as a "hollow" wall and both the types of fittings illustrated, work by expanding on the "blind" side and spreading over a significant surface area: same principle as both gravity and toggle fixings for (e.g.) plasterboard stud walling, but obviously more robust.

Whilst I do agree, Steve that the primary load moment is in sheer, with constant opening and closing of cupboard doors and the diagonal moment of the cupboard being exerted away from the wall face, and my experience of trying to achieve a strong and secure fixing to these damned briques (plus a contractor fitted kitchen wall cupboard which fell off the wall smashing loads of expensive china!!), probably my paranoia would make me think very long and hard about how to fix any seriously heavy weight in this case!

A chum had precisely the same prob in fixing shelving to carry some serious weight in his workshop.

A further problem is that the arrete bergeres ( and shutter pintles) are screw ended, with a very course thread and I found nothing to fit 'em!

Thus the complete proprietory fixings are a no no.

My solution for the arretes was to roll up a tube from plastic flyscreen; glue it. Drill out an over-sized hole and cement the tube into the hole. (The cement seeps into the plastic perforations as well as the honeycomb in the briques.

Then the next day, fill the tube with mortar rapide and push in an appropriate Fischer plug. The day after I was able to create excellent tightness and lateral location.

Trouble is success rate was only about 4 out of 6: the failures had to be re-visited.

Alternative would have been the spade end pintles and arretes which are cemented in: which would have meant making a nasty mess of the wall surface and much more work. Also quite tricky to locate these pasky objects precisely where you want 'em to line up with both the shutters and each other.

 

[AnOther]

I'm with Will, the crush type fixings are pretty good and strong. When you buy them you should also buy the tool for pre-crushing them but don't over-do it because you can distort them and then the bolt can get stuck after which it becomes a trauma, they are just meant to get the crush going, believe me, I've been there !

I have to say that I have mixed feelings about some of the French construction techniques, some are brilliant and innovative whilst others are primative and nothing more than an absolute PITA [+o(]

Dividing walls of 40 or 60mm thick red block with a lick of Crepi for instance do not make for very good sound insulation.

[bejay]

Consider a resin injection system if all else fails.

http://www.screwfix.com/cats/100071/Fixings/Injection-Fixing;jsessionid=XNJVNKLJAANJYCSTHZOSFEY

There's something for everyone here but little experimentation may be required for a particular situation.

bj

[Gluestick]

With honeycomb briques, bejay, it simply runs into the large crevices before it sets.

Tried that one!

They are a real b****r!

[:@]

[Dick Smith]

How about a Welsh dresser?

[Gluestick]

Like ours?

[IMG]http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i278/Michaeleff/PicturesHouseFrance0001.jpg[/IMG]

[Dick Smith]

I think that wins over a kitchen wall unit, yes.

[bejay]

[quote user="Gluestick"]

With honeycomb briques, bejay, it simply runs into the large crevices before it sets.

[/quote]

Consider using  containment sleeves if this is a  problem.

They  are there on the Screwfix link together with all sorts of other bits and bobs  to make your resin injecting experience happy and fulfilling (and very expensive).

As I say  though it does need a little experimentation.but it is very effective stuff when used appropriately.

bj

[Chancer]

[quote user="bejay"][quote user="Gluestick"]

[/quote]

Consider using  containment sleeves if this is a  problem.

They  are there on the Screwfix link together with all sorts of other bits and bobs  to make your resin injecting experience happy and fulfilling (and very expensive).

As I say  though it does need a little experimentation.but it is very effective stuff when used appropriately.

bj

[/quote]

To avoid fixing into the briques creuse I recently fitted some kitchen cupboards for my girlfriend using cheviles métalliques à expanser through the metal support rail and into the placo as I had done succesfully chez moi.

Sadly they fell off fully laden while she was standing beside them, I mistakingly thought that placo doublage used BA13 placo, twas a painfull reminder that it is only 10mm and soft as shite compared to NF BA13.

I can strongly reccomend chemical anchors for your "bergers" Dick, they are quite effective using the perforated plastic French letters made for them, I used these in briques creuses to hang a 200 litre ballon de chaud but if you are worried there is a purpose made sleeve for briques creuses which directs the resin behind the outer skin like a rivet, I have seen them in Bricomarché and Bricodepot.

Such is my faith in the epoxy resin anchors that I am currently working on the 4th level of self built wooden scaffolding held to the wall by only one 10mm chemical fixing on each support, it is not even studding in the wall but a manchon tige filettée with a short stub of studding so that I can remove and reuse the fixing.

Whilst I am confident to risk my life on these fixings my girlfriend refuses to put even a packet of muesli in the recently refitted kitchen cupboards[:)]

15 attempts to post and probably another 15 to edit[:@]

[strebor]

Hi all, I'm faced with the same problem with our new build. The outer skin of the wall is Bouyer Leroux http://www.bouyer-leroux.com/web2/p89_murs_bio_bric.html block with 100mm doublage on the inside face.

Unless I can find an aternative method I'm going to use the metal strip cupboard hanger, full width accross the room.

I will chemical bolt this to the outer skin using the mesh slieves provided a la : leroy-merlin Réf. : 64830066

Probably overkill but I can't just hang them from the 13mm placo skin and without the chemical bolting how do I fix to a multiwall block ?  Sky hooks don't apear in the LM online  dogalog

[AnOther]

Just a tip [I]

You can create a live link to a web page by typing a word, lets say BLOCK, then highlight it, click on the "create link" icon [img]http://www.completefrance.com/cs/freetextbox3/images/createlink.gif[/img] then paste your link into the box.

Result BLOCK

[:D]

[Chancer]

Well my kitchen wall cupboards (ie those that have yet to fall down!) have the support rail fixed to BA13 placo using chevilles metalliques à expanser although I may have been lucky enough to get one or two to go into the R48 rails.

They are carrying a lot of weight and contain iron casseroles etc and have baskets along the top containing mixers raclette à pierre etc.

Properly done a decent fixing into decent (NF) plasterboard will hold a hell of a lot of weight, improperly done into what I now know to be non NF 10mm doublage 9 fasteners held up 2 normal and 2 sur hotte cupboards for about 2 weeks before failing dramatically[:-))]

[tonybugue]

I can confirm that with the correct fittings (metal Redidriva, I think it was that I used - from Screwfix), plasterboard will take the weight of normal kitchen units.  I fitted several Ikea wall cupboards this way, and they're still up and taking a fair amount of weight after nearly 4 years.  I used 4 fixings per unit and the units are screwed together through the sides.

[Chancer]

And I can attest that kitchen units fitted as above but with the stronger expanding fixings onto 10mm non NF (probably) placo will let go in a dramatic fashion[6]

[powerdesal]

It would seem that the real answer is................dont have wall cupboards - problem solved.