Gas bottles in cave sous sol?

[Mutiara]

We have had a devis from a kitchen company to install a kitchen and they proposed to pipe the gas ( from our bottles) to our cellar and have the bottles down below. I am sure I read somewhere that this is not alllowed?? Can anyone confirm if this is allowed or not please?

[John L]

Definately NOT allowed as gas is heavier than air.

[powerdesal]

It may be allowed, but it certainly is NOT a good idea.

[chessfou]

"not allowed" - please point to chapter and verse (preferably French source).

"not a good idea" - why?

In our house the gas bottle is placed in the sous sol almost directly below the table de cuisson (3 rings gas, 1 electric - handy if you run out of gas) - about 2 metres below.

How else would the layout be achieved?

I would have thought there would more likely be regs against having gas cyclinders actually in the kitchen (especially if a combined kitchen/salon).

PS. We always keep 2 bottles on the go - shortly after changing over, we get a replacement for the empty one.

[La Guerriere]

It its not a good idea 'coz butane is heavier than air and any slight leak will accumulate on the ground. Compare with boats and caravans where bottled gas is kept in lockers with the vent at the bottom, so the gas runs out. In a cellar the gas would just accumulate at the bottom until you drop a fag end or create a spark, and then Lo! the varnish is removed from your portrait.....

[Deimos]

[quote user="La Guerriere"]n a cellar the gas would just accumulate at the bottom until you drop a fag end or create a spark, [/quote]

e.g. by switching on a light.

Ian

[Gluestick]

Boats also have "Bilge Blowers" which sensible owners and skippers operate for at least ten minutes, prior to firing up the engine.

Even if regs DO allow bottled gas to be stored and run off from a cellar, I would want significant forced ventilation and a gas detector installed.

But then, I've seen a new house that was totally destroyed by leaking propane cylinders....................

Dramatic!

 

[Punch]

NOT allowed !

trevoraki summed it up in one sentence. Chessfou -I'm surprised you're still alive [:D]

We have installed kitchens for Lapeyre and worked with Mobalpa in the past and it is definetely not allowed and doesn't comply with French regulations!! There is an arret prefectorale about it. (Article 19 of the arrête du 2/8/1977 actually )! Those of you who can read French see below; Mutraria - you had better tackle your kitchen fitters about this as they should know better!

Est-il possible de stocker une bouteille dans une cave ?

Non, car le butane et propane sont plus lourds que l’air et ont donc tendance à s’accumuler au sol s’il n’y a pas de voie d’évacuation. Ce type de stockage est d’ailleurs interdit. Selon l’arrêté du 2 août 1977 - article 19, « tout local destiné à recevoir des récipients de butane commercial et ne renfermant pas d'appareil d'utilisation doit comporter deux orifices d'au moins 50 cm² d'ouverture chacun, dont l'un en partie basse... ». L’article 20 du même arrêté précise que « les récipients de propane commercial d'une contenance > 6,5 litres doivent être tenus à l'extérieur et séparés des bâtiments d'habitation ». Il n’est donc pas question de stocker du propane à l’intérieur d’une habitation, encore moins dans une cave.

 

www.punchardrenovation.com

 

[Will]

Just to take Punch's excellent reply a stage further - as he says, propane should never be stored inside. However, butane is a different matter, if you kept that outside it would be unusable in winter because of its different freezing point. So it is customary for butane to be kept inside - usually in a small bottle kept alongside the appliance it powers. In fact some cookers and virtually all gas-powered space heaters incorporate a compartment for the gas bottle. Butane should never be stored in a cellar, as it is heavier than air, as has been pointed out. However, many French houses have a sous-sol rather than an actual cellar, and these sous-sols usually have windows and garage-type doors which means they do have some ventilation at ground level. So this may, arguably, allow butane to be stored there within the letter of the rules - but in any case it's still better not to store the gas down below.

[Pads]

Do you still think that having a gas bottle in my cave in my circumstances is dangerous?:

The cave is half on the ground floor( But all 3 rooms are on the same level)   the front being a garage the back (wine cellar and seperate utilerty room)  which is build into a hill is underground. With steps up the side of the house making the first floor open up into the garden.and where the front door is.  I was planing on having a gas cooker in the utilerty room( as this is a large room it will be a second kitchen and store room, for freezer, washing machine etc...) as well as a hob/ oven in the kitchen on the first floor, both fed from bottles stored in the utilerty room. the garage doors are kept open most days even in the winter as we use the 3 rooms and there are no other windows. we also use the garage us a undercover place for a washing line on rainey days. would this be enough ventilation? The bottles are always turned off at the bottle when we are away and the garage doors always open when we are there .

Also once we do the work on the house a vent will also be fitted into the ceiling or side wall if possible .

What do you think ?/ 

[TWINKLE]

Yes Pads - very dangerous! 

When I come to visit you next time you come to France we could hurt ourselves going up and down all of those stairs when we need another bottle of wine[:-))]

You need to find a safer place to keep your plonk[:)]

[woolybananasbrother]

Pads, don't risk it.

When my Ma was carrying me they had a place go up. They both survived. The only thing recovered was a blob of gold that had been her watch. Imagine you had a load of kids or friends staying. You really want to take a chance?

Get real[:@]

[Pads]

[quote user="TWINKLE"]

Yes Pads - very dangerous! 

When I come to visit you next time you come to France we could hurt ourselves going up and down all of those stairs when we need another bottle of wine[:-))]

You need to find a safer place to keep your plonk[:)]

[/quote]

Dont worry about that twinks there is always enough bottles to hand, brought up before the evening starts , never get out of the sofa except to wee when Im drinking as im prone to fall over [:-))]

Wot I dont understand though is if the gas is heavier than air , surley if I had a leak it would just make its way down the cellar stairs any way causing the same effect [8-)] 

[BIG MAC]

Interesting one this what are the rules on remotely stored bottles being used to feed a combustion appliance in a cave?

I am contemplating converting our Cave into a Kitchen as it has three doorways one external, two internal  a window  etc. however the work surfaces will be approximately level with the ground outside therefore the floor considerably lower.

I can always use electric however I am wondering whether there may be more general rules regarding siting of kitchens of which I am unaware. The intention was to ensure the ceiling (The underfloor to a bedroom) is double boarded with staggered joints and equipped with hard wired smoke and fire detection.

 

 

[TWINKLE]

[quote user="Pads"][

Dont worry about that twinks there is always enough bottles to hand, brought up before the evening starts , never get out of the sofa except to wee when Im drinking as im prone to fall over [:-))]

 

 surley if I had a leak it would just make its way down the cellar stairs any way causing the same effect [8-)] 

[/quote]

I thought you said that you got up to do that Pads![8-)]

[TWINKLE]

Ok!

I'm leaving this thread now - promise[:)]

[Gluestick]

The problem is Pads that gas which is heavier than air "Gathers" in cellars, 'cos winders don't normally let out on damp underground earth!

The dangerous thing is fuel gas (NG/LPG/ Butane/Propane etc) is highly combustible at a ratio of circa 13:1 Air:Gas.

Thus you only need a pocket mixed generally around that ratio and BOOM!

Air:Fuel bombs, to give an example can enjoy more destructive force than bombs made from high explosive!

If you had ALL gas in a cellar it would not explode: just asphyixiate you instead, when you went to fetch more wine for Twinks.

[B].

 

 

[Pads]

[quote user="TWINKLE"][quote user="Pads"][

Dont worry about that twinks there is always enough bottles to hand, brought up before the evening starts , never get out of the sofa except to wee when Im drinking as im prone to fall over [:-))]

 

 surley if I had a leak it would just make its way down the cellar stairs any way causing the same effect [8-)] 

[/quote]

I thought you said that you got up to do that Pads![8-)]

[/quote]

Bad girl Twinks ....[:(] your going off thread again ......[;-)]

[woolybananasbrother]

Nah, our little TWINKLY one is bringing things back to basics.[6]

[woolybananasbrother]

Never have below you, simple rule and preferably not indoors.[6]

[TWINKLE]

D'you mind translating that into Japanese or something more simple?

[woolybananasbrother]

game.. word missing.... gas.... add in any space... not below stairs...... ahhhhhhhh so TWINKS

[WJT]

We have the same situation, where the gas bottles are piped in from below but they are actually in an enclosed area in front of our cave. We have never used them though because the hob is quite old. I just use the electric rings until we get around to fitting a new kitchen. But the previous owners certainly used this set up for many years.

If you can't have them below or indoors, where are you meant to put them? [8-)]

[TWINKLE]

Outside on the drive[:)]

[WJT]

[quote user="TWINKLE"]Outside on the drive[:)][/quote]

Are you serious? If so, it looks like I won't be able to have a gas hob.[:(]

But hopefully, this is just you lashing out because you don't understand the translation.[:)]