photovoltaique installations in conjunction with EDF

[Merlin]

If this is the correct place to post this question please read on...?  We are contemplating going this route and was wondering if anyone on here has done it - i.e. in simple terms, having the panels put on your roof by a specialised company - cost of such being refunded by the government via a tax impot and then EDF paying you an annual sum for the power generated.  We would like to hear from anyone who has had this done and their experience or the research they did etc.  Many thanks.

[Nord36]

We had the rep around today and it really does look on paper like a very good deal indeed.

[maude]

provided you have enough lifetime expectancy to recoup the capital outlay.I,ve had a look at most things "green" and would have to live until about 120 to recover any costs.

Would LOVE to be proved wrong mind!

Maude

[Chancer]

I can confirm that it is a really good deal..................................................for the agent commercial [:D]

[Gluestick]

Despite increasing roll outs of PV technologies, the simple reality is the capital cost is far too high to demonstrate a realistic pay back cycle.

The forward hope is that Thin Film PV cells will be employed as alternative integrated primary construction materials: for example, when large office blocks etc are first built, which use vast surface areas of glass, the glass would encapsulate the thin film PV.

China is forging ahead with PV manufacture: and capital costs are falling; albeit fairly slowly.

Another present barrier is that so far, few manufacturers offer a vertically integrated system, including the PV cells,  the DC-AC converters, the solid state control modules and the critical mains interface equipment.

Thus realisations are an hybrid mixture of equipment from various sources.

In any case, capital cost in such tech areas always demonstrates a primary rule of manufacturing and markets: as volume rises, rapidly, then capital costs fall  synergetically, since economies of manufacturing scale kick in increasingly.

Ready examples were the original LCD wrist watches and the pocket calculator: the cost of chip laydown can run into millions: however once the manufacturing process is dramatically scaled up (And all the front costs amortized), then silicon chip production becomes a sort of sausage machine: with simple chips, the packaging cost much exceeds the pure chip costs.

One the PV manufacturers decided which technology is the most effective (And viable in mass manufacture), then undoubtedly, China will be churning out complete integrated small PV solutions like sausages too.

That point is some way off as yet.

German homes have perhaps the greatest penetration of PV applications feeding into the grid: however, this is clearly on the back of substantial grants and tax incentives.

Remove the incentives and compel PV to stand, competitively against all other energy sources and despite the exorbitant cost now of gas and oil, PV cannot yet compete.

 

[Merlin]

Phew!  Thanks for that.  Do you think the grants will still be available in a few years time if the technology becomes cheaper?  The temptation is to go for it now whilst the grants seem generous and plan for the long term returns - but we accept what you say about the updated technology and more effective systems coming on line.  We are not youngsters and may not see the return in our lifetime (given the math as they say) but whoever comes after us will presumably and you have to make a start somewhere to conserve energy?  Other Half is just reading that it takes four to ten years to recover the energy it takes to manufacture the equipment needed....... it's frustrating isn't it. 

[Quillan]

I looked in to this last year as a friend was having it installed and I was not sure about some of the 'facts' he was repeating that the sales guy told him. My first problem was with the 'payback' time on the initial outlay which he claimed way around 5 to 8 years. I did a bit of digging around and discovered a paper by either Oxford or Cambridge University (I have lost it so I can remember exactly) which said it would take between 50 to 80 years to get your money back depending on how the system was set up, how much electricity you used, how well insulated your house is (?) and how much natural light your house had, in short there were so many variables which is why the 'payback' time varied so much. My personal reaction is that both he and I will be long dead before we made any financial gain. Actually I worked out its cheaper to move to a house that already has it installed or buy something near a fast flowing river and go hydro electric.

[Pierre ZFP]

4 to ten years to recover the energy of making the kit? You're joking, far more than that when you take into account extracting the raw materials.

I heard on the BBC (Material World?) a report about PV systems.  The perceived wisdom is that it may be possible to achieve grid parity (ie the cost of producing PV electricity is the same as the wholesale price) in southern Europe (eg Greece, Italy ) in as little as 10 years time and maybe 15 to 20 years time for northern Europe.

If the technology improves greatly giving much cheaper costs and much greater efficiancy then it migh be worth condidering. 

At the moment you would get a far greater return by installing solar heating/hot water systems.

[Gluestick]

IMHO and having made a very close study and analysis of all Green Technology energy areas, it is undoubted that when and if grants are removed, not one currently touted system can offer payback.

Perhaps the best study on Wind Energy was compiled by leading US Engineers and Scientists a few years ago: they have much baseline realtime data to employ, as wind turbines are pretty common in Arizona and Texas particularly and their reserch and conclusions was based around a number of projects in those two states.

The EU in particular, has suffered a Knee Jerk, on the back of the general euphoric paranoia over Global Warming and Climate Change and the politically useful ploy over carbon.

Your other half is quite correct: manufacturing PVs is environmentally rather unfriendly: perhaps worse, all Silicon, Gallium etc technologies employ extremely toxic chemicals and processes: China is without doubt the most cavalier in toxic pollution: and the "persistence" of most of the inorganic compounds used is extremely long. (i.e. takes many years to break down, organically and no longer be an environmental problem and health hazard).

China, of course, doesn't have an EPA equivalent. (Environmental Protection Agency).

Now, the other facet you must take into account, is the expected life of the PV cells: constant use tends to degrade the cellular structure; as well as the encapsulation, thus their life may well be considerably less than an installer's forecast! Which could leave you facing a further significant capital cost in a very few year's time!

This has been a core problem with Ground Source Heat Pumps: sellers produce attractive charts and graphs "Proving" amortization of capital costs (Pay Back).

Trouble is, few heat pumps working constantly last that long!

The very best do: and they are repairable in service. However, I mean major installations used as part of an integrated environmental conditioning system: which has many different components.

Perhaps Merlin, it's about time you waved your magic wand, and magicked an oil well in the garden?

[:)]

Whilst it is very laudable to respect the environment and try to adopt a green stance, I fear rationale dictates a hugely cynical and jaundiced eye and one must consider any and every such project coldly: and develop an effective Cost-Benefit Analysis.

Personally, I believe SEGS (Solar Energy Generating Systems) are more tenable: and have already been proven commercially.

PV has been indispensible for Satellite power generation: however, of course, cost is not an issue: length and reliability of service are for critically important Comms and military applicatios.

SEGS:

[5-element]

A word of caution: last night, on "Envoye special" (Fr.2) there was a feature on green energies and all the rip-off that goes on, with photovoltaique in a very prominent place. The usual horror stories! Apparently, 80% of photovoltaique installers are companies that emerged in the past year - as it is not yet a regulated profession, anyone can declare themselves "installers" (including a pizzaiolo, apparently).

I think the programme is being repeated tomorrow night? Anyway, be very, very careful of promises made, there are many rip-off merchants on the loose out there, and most do claim to work with EDF or with the local commune....

 

http://envoye-special.france2.fr/

Energies vertes : l’envers du décor
Un reportage de Michel Guétienne et Frédéric Bohn

Panneaux solaires, pompes à chaleur, géothermie ou mini-éoliennes : des dizaines de milliers de Français s’équipent chaque année, avec l’espoir de voir baisser leur facture énergétique tout en faisant un geste écologique. Ces nouvelles technologies sont-elles réellement maîtrisées ? Les rendements sont-ils aussi prometteurs que les installateurs l’affirment ? Depuis quelques mois, les plaintes de clients floués se multiplient. En cause : les agissements douteux d’entreprises venues profiter de la "manne verte". Nombre d’entre elles disparaissent après seulement quelques mois d’existence. Pour les acheteurs, qui découvrent alors l’ampleur des malfaçons, les recours sont minces.

[NickP]

 Wow! I actually agree with gluestick on something. 

"Whilst it is very laudable to respect the environment and try to adopt a green stance, I fear rationale dictates a hugely cynical and jaundiced eye and one must consider any and every such project coldly: and develop an effective Cost-Benefit Analysis."

But to sum up in simple terminology, "If there was any benefit to us they wouldn't be offering it " But seriously your age when adopting something like this must be taken into account [:D]

[Gluestick]

[quote user="5-element"]

A word of caution: last night, on "Envoye special" (Fr.2) there was a feature on green energies and all the rip-off that goes on, with photovoltaique in a very prominent place. The usual horror stories! Apparently, 80% of photovoltaique installers are companies that emerged in the past year - as it is not yet a regulated profession, anyone can declare themselves "installers" (including a pizzaiolo, apparently).

I think the programme is being repeated tomorrow night? Anyway, be very, very careful of promises made, there are many rip-off merchants on the loose out there, and most do claim to work with EDF or with the local commune....

[/quote]

Indeed........

All New Wave "Miracle" products I have observed over quite a few years now follow precisely identical patterns, it seems.

Remember all the dodgy Double Glazing "Entrepreneurs" from the 1960s onwards?

Exorbitant claims were made about energy saving and life expectancy of the product: and most of those aluminium alloy frames have been re-cycled into Toyotas! And the now mature market has condensed into very few national operators. and the odd local company.

Any new market attracts the cowboys, since there are no standards such as DIN and no regulation.

And worst of all, no one really has much of a clue about the technologies involved.

From the 1980s onwards in far too many instances, "Technology" has meant people selling things they didn't understand; to people who didn't really know what they were buying!

[:)]

[Chancer]

I agree with eerything that has been said but you may have missed the point that if you have an installation that feeds surplus energy back into the national grid EDF pay you a much higher rate than what we pay for electricity, they guarantee to pay that price over the contract period, although you can bet your bottom dollar that once most people have invested in producing green power on their behalf they will find a way to recind on their promise.

It is the combination of the higher selling price and the tax rebates that these photovoltaic companies use to make their still very dubious rentability claims.

I go to a diving fosse in Belgium that has a massive photovoltaic installation covering the whole of the roof of the building, it helps to maintain the water temp at 33 degrees Celcius and in the foyer there is a big readout showing the amount of energy produced, it was a very sunny day and at peak it was giving out 36kw, within a couple of hours  later it had fallen to zero, it was still a very bright day, not even overcast.

[Quillan]

Taking a very simplistic view here but if this was such a good system why don't they make it compulsory to install one in every new build. I mean it would save building wind turbines all over the place that people complain about because their ugly and they don't take up any space as you have roof anyway, seems logic to me. Same with solar water heating and rain water recycling for laundry and other things.

[Gluestick]

Agree completely Q.

Some years ago now, I was involved with a project which intended to build the ultimate green and self-sustaining house.

Water: all rainwater was to be captured; and this would go straight into the subterranean tank. used for toilet flushing: and baths, showers and clothes washing etc on a different circuit, after filtering and irradiating with High Intensity UV to kill water-born bacteria etc.

The basement also contained a complete sewerage treatment plant: which produced methane for cooking and part-heating: and the water content was then "Scrubbed" processed through a Reverse Osmosis Filter and dumped in the main water tank.

Obviously the design was super-insulated: and employed heat capture and re-cycling as well as forced ventilation.

Problem One: local authorities realised that if there was insufficient water going into main sewers then they would quickly stink!

Problem Two: water companies then wanted to levy rates on rainwater collected! I kid you not!

The whole thing's a dichotomy: significant and serious steps taken to shove lifestyles towards alternative energy and other resources, then are in diametric opposition to the current business model and exploitation of water companies, sewerage companies, energy companies and etc.

All politicians are attempting to do is gently edge Western lifestyle towards such objectives; whilst dreaming up new wheezes to raise enviromental/climate change carbon/pollution taxes so they can waste still more and expand their bureaucracies.

Thus methinks they speak with heavily forked tongue...........

 

[BIG MAC]

I will never recover the cost of my extra toilet......my conservatory.........the plants in my garden. unless I sell......then I must consider are these things making an attractive proposition for an incomer and how much will they pay me for it?

Then there is the sliding scale effect....we all know how much cheaper energy has become in real terms....shortly it will be free......wont it ;-)?

Hmmmm.

Stikes me with this installation you know what it costs now..but how much to maintain...certify etc?

And how much will a Kwh cost in 2020?

Bottom line ......how much electricity do you need and is the risk a viable one.......for me no.

[Quillan]

Thinking about what I wrote I thought I would have a look around to see how much difference you would pay for a house with such a system already installed against one without. My initial investigation shows there is little or no difference. So it would seem to me that if I were looking to move and considered having one of these systems it would be cheaper to buy a house with one already installed.

I think that for some it is interesting to live 'off the grid' and I think looking forward to when I retire any method of keeping my running costs to a minimum would seem like a good idea. The problem is, as so many have already said, is that initial installation is not cheap and it would probably be a waste of money as I would never really get my money back in what remains of my life and I don't see why I should do it basically for somebody else to enjoy the benefits.

[BIG MAC]

What I was getting at is that so often these innovations will show the 'upside'

No mention on what Insurers will say re premiums and Insurance demanded inspections.

Nothing about the almost iunevitable levvies which will be sprung by government departments ....(Probably starting with the Carboin footprint of your Chinese PV Panel factory and working back)

No mention of the maintenance cost....One good hailstorm or high wind and maybe things wont be so rosy

Little mention of operational efficiency in October in Northern France.......just when you need it most you get it least.

I am all for alternative energy if it means that my leccy bill is cheaper but I ask myself this......if PV is such a great idea........why aren't French farmers uprooting the Oilseed Rape and planting PV cells?

 

[Bob T]

[quote user="BIG MAC"]

I am all for alternative energy if it means that my leccy bill is cheaper but I ask myself this......if PV is such a great idea........why aren't French farmers uprooting the Oilseed Rape and planting PV cells?

 [/quote]

Because the buy back electricity, that EDF give you a 20 year contract for, is for roof fitted and not ground fitted panels. This is to stop farmers converting their fields.

I am also interested in the EDF scheme but will need to do more research yet. I believe that with the €8000 tax back, the 20 year buy back, and the interest free loan from the government, it will take me no more than 5 or 6 years before I break even. I intend to live that long.

[NickP]

Lots of very intelligent and clever people on this forum have given lots of reasons to not get involved with this "technology" I agree with all of them but to offer a very simple answer to your question, don't get involved,  if it was any benifit to us they wouldn't offer it to us, they would keep it all to themselves.

[Quillan]

I have one question about solar energy be it to heat water or provide electricity. If it were really that good then why does not any government, especially in Europe, pass a simple law that says all new houses must be built with this stuff installed?

[Bob T]

I can honestly say that the solar hot water system that I have had fitted for well over a year now is very good. I had to use the electric immersion now and then during the winter to boost the water temperature, but it was switched off for 8 months last summer.

It is the UK that passes laws to control everything that people do, we still have choice here in France.

[gyn_paul]

[quote user="Bob T"]I can honestly say that the solar hot water system that I have had fitted for well over a year now is very good. I had to use the electric immersion now and then during the winter to boost the water temperature, but it was switched off for 8 months last summer.
It is the UK that passes laws to control everything that people do, we still have choice here in France.
[/quote]

I'm just getting round to thinking about a solar hot water system..

What sort of system do you have Bob, flat plate or evacuated tube? 

      How big/how many?

         What size tank does it feed?

            How many in your household?

               Was any of the cost reclaimable?

Dare one ask the capital cost? - this is not because I'm thinking about the payback time... I've always thought this to be an odd concept for anything involving a free energy source, After all you don't (unless you are a company accountant dealing with write-down and depreciation of assets) consider the 'payback' of anything else you buy, no this is simply to add it to the huge list of things I probably won't have any money left for when the renovations are finished/stopped by lack of funds.

 

p

[Gluestick]

GP:

As an accountant, but mainly one involved for a few years ( [:)]) in high falutin' finance, the standard metric for mensuration of Cost-benefit Analysis in capital terms is DCF - Discounted Cash Flow (Analysis).

Put simply (I love simple, 'cos I am a simple soul at complex heart: and it's POETS Day! [:D]), DCF considers what benefit the organisation could have enjoyed for the invested capital if invested elsewhere: and then seeks to isolate the core increase in value.

Thus when considering Alternative and Green Energy, one must consider the cost of current systems of heating: electricity - oil - gas- wood- a Thick Jumper: against one's life expectancy: and what alternative goodies one might purchase instead with the capital invested in, e.g. solar.

Most of us trade any savings against our income stream: i.e., does the solar (e.g.) demonstrate a real cost saving over its own life cycle, against say electricity when heating water for DHW?

Answer (In majority of cases) nope.

Perhaps the simplest way to dope this out, rather than resorting to complicated Excel spreadhsheets with multiple forumulae and "What If?" scenarios and "Goal Seeks", is to estimate the putative cost saving of an alternative solution in terms of up front capital investment: then generate a forward projection of, say Ten Years electricity costs of HC costs (Inflated per annum for cost rises), a replacement Ballon each ten years (less if unlucky): and finally see if the "Free" DHW outstrips the energy cost for electricity + the capital replacement of the Ballon; amortising the front capital Solar installation cost, over say Ten Years.

Answers on one side of the paper only please.

[:)]

P.S.

Evacuated Solar Tubes are the way to go: additionally, search out the separate control modules and ancilliary bits yourself, rather than buying a complete package; 'cos most are Chinese made now and it's the package that costs the most!"

The technology aint rocket science.

Knitting it all together ought not to tax the brain or skills of anyone who has addressed the vagueries of French electrical installations and Plumbing!

[Www]

OK. It's Friday!

Yippee!

 

[gyn_paul]

I guess you're busy today Gluey... only being able to give me the short answer an' all.. !

I see what you mean, but you take my point that nobody (well, nobody but you, apparently[:)]) looks at a oil chaudiere and says , 'how long before I recoup my expenditure, I wonder'  because - for one thing - there is no recoup; it's money out all the way. But faced with the prospect of spending a chunk of money on something which is going to harness free energy for you, the first thought always seems to be that very one. Just strikes me as odd, is all.

You know the old joke about it being hard to remember, when you are up to your ar$e in crocodiles, that the original intention was to drain the swamp?

Well, while I wile away time chatting to learned souls like you, the rain continues to hammer down on my building site (68mm rain since Wed pm and counting) filling up the footings for the conservatory (dug with far too big a digger, with far too big a bucket, so the resultant concrete will be strong enough to support Taipei 101) so what I have now is more like a moat. Just waiting for the crocs to arrive !

p