Heating and power - clean slate options

[flamesnm]

All

Really interesting reading through the forum on the multitude of options for heating systems, hot water and power that everyone has adopted. Just when I think I've settled on a solution, a counter argument sends me off looking for more information on the new contender.

So, give a clean slate what would you consider the best options ?

The property is in the SW near Pau and is need of some external renovation, but mostly internal which will be almost back to bare walls, which gives us scope. It's not a blank cheque, but I'd prefer to spend the money now when I have it, and reduce my ongoing costs for when I don't. I'd also prefer simplicity so would prefer the heating and HW to be on the same system.

The house sits in two hectares of sloping land. It isn't on the gas mains. Growing our own fuel could be an option ( willow ? ) for a wood fired boiler. Ground source heat pump also springs to mind for a wet heating system. I've seen a couple of posts on the success of air source heat pumps as well ( which would also provide a cooling solution, especially with the split units ) but I don't like the aesthetics of the units. I also like the idea of generating some power from all that sun I'm hoping to see once we move across, but that will be more as a top up function, rather than relying on it as a sole source.

Any thoughts or guidance is very much appreciated. Also, any recommendations on installers for various systems ( for it won't be me putting it in ) would be welcomed.

Regards

[andyh4]

In my experience there are 3 phases to growing and harvesting your own heat source:

 

Phase 1 - Euphoria - you are doing the right thing for the planet, the fuel is free and it is keeping you fit!

 

Phase 2 - Acclimatisation -  It is hard work but you are doing your bit for the planet, It is not as free as you thought with all the new chain saw bits and axe shafts you have had to buy, and why don't you feel as fit as you used to?

 

Phase 3 - Resignation - You're getting to old for this, but you don't have any choices left short of starting again.

 

As a consequence of this learning, this time around I am again installing a wood burner - but this time only for top up heat and something to look good at Christmas.

[powerdesal]

Let me be the first to answer.

My personal preference would be:-

Wood pellet boiler driving into a heat store with additional solar input to the heat store.

The wood pellet boiler being of the type that can be adapted to take logs as / when necessary.

Reasons:

1. Pellet boilers are / can be automatic in operation

2. Pellet boilers need ashing out at extended intervals

3. Loading logs is fine when you are younger and hale and hearty, consider what happens when you get older and possibly less fit.

4. Pellets can be delivered by tanker and auto fed without manual handling.

5. Solar input to the heat store makes the overall thermal efficiency more cost effective.

6. Solar electrical generation is not yet (IMHO) a viable consideration

7.Optional log burning makes use of your own natural wood resources if / when available

8. GSHP is an expensive installation and is is best suited to underfloor heating which requires very substantial slab insulation to make it effective

9.ASHP can work but, like you, I am not keen on the aesthetics.

10. Wood burning is carbon neutral so can appeal to the 'greenies'

The primary task must must must ( did I stress MUST ) be a high level of insulation to make any heating system cost effective.

By the way,......you MUST insulate.

Did I mention insulation ???????

ps I was not the first to answer after all.

[Quillan]

I am sure you will be getting some excellent advice from our members. Some will conflict so you will have to use it as a starting point and as many of us have said in the past research, research and then research some more.

The most important thing will be insulation which will keep you both warm in winter and cool in summer. The better your insulation the less your energy costs with regards to heating. I don't think anyone will disagree with me when I say this is without doubt the most important thing and where you should not be afraid to spend your money.

If your insulating to a specification where you are basically sealing the house you will obviously need to incorporate a system to change the air inside. It may be worth your while looking at reclaiming heat from the exhaust with a Heat Recovery Unit such as the one used in one of the "Grand Design" programs that can reclaim between 60 to 70% of the heat. In the program I watched the guy had about 170m2 house with just one log burner and the above mentioned system.

With regards to air source pumps, yes they are my favorite, you can box the external units in to make them more pleasing. Internally if you don't like the standard AC looking units there are units available now that look more like a radiator with a grill at the top and bottom which looks a bit nicer. They can be either the same price or just a few Euros more.

A friend of mine who is building a new house has gone for ground source but instead of digging up the garden he has a well that can no longer be used for drinking water. He has installed pipes in to the well for his external part of the heat source pump and also used the well water for toilets, showers and laundry. So if you have a well it might be worth looking at.

Because you need to grow quite a bit of willow at yearly intervals on a three to four year cycle I doubt you will have enough garden. This is something you would need to get serious advice on and whilst I have read about it I don't know anyone personally who has done it.

Good luck.

[Quillan]

[quote user="andyh4"]

In my experience there are 3 phases to growing and harvesting your own heat source:

 

Phase 1 - Euphoria - you are doing the right thing for the planet, the fuel is free and it is keeping you fit!

 

Phase 2 - Acclimatisation -  It is hard work but you are doing your bit for the planet, It is not as free as you thought with all the new chain saw bits and axe shafts you have had to buy, and why don't you feel as fit as you used to?

 

Phase 3 - Resignation - You're getting to old for this, but you don't have any choices left short of starting again.

 

As a consequence of this learning, this time around I am again installing a wood burner - but this time only for top up heat and something to look good at Christmas.

[/quote]

Personally it's s*d the planet with me, what I am interested in is when I get my pension I don't want it all going on keeping the lights on and me warm in winter. Unless I have misunderstood I think the latter is where the OP is coming from. [;-)]

[andyh4]

[quote user="Quillan"]

Personally it's s*d the planet with me, [/quote]

 

Indeed Qillan - which was the message I was trying to get across.

 

Regarding pellets, whilst these fill many of the gaps that a conventional wood burning system has, they are not currently environmentally very friendly.  The vast majority of chips are made in Canada and shipped to Europe.

[flamesnm]

Brilliant advice. Thanks all for the input. I particularly like andyh4's

pragmatic approach to growing your own fuel. The message on insulation

is loud and clear as well.

There's no green requirements for us either. No kids, so I've already done my bit for the planet [:P]

What I forgot to mention is cooking. With no mains gas, is the only viable option a gas tank ? I'm assuming it's cheaper to eat out every night than cook on electric ? Any thoughts on solid fuel ranges ?

[nomoss]

Sell up in France and move further south [:D]

Eating out was pretty cheap in Algeria last time I was there.

[HoneySuckleDreams]

[quote user="flamesnm"]
With no mains gas, is the only viable option a gas tank ?
[/quote]

We pay around 80euro for a big bottle of gas and that lasts around 6 months. And we have 3 kids.

[confused of chalus]

Or you could get an induction hob if you don't fancy the gas bottle - it uses considerably less electricity than conventional ones.

[andyh4]

On cooking, I agree with the last 2 posters.  Bottle gas (even small ones) is not expensive for the quanity you will use for cooking and the same can be said for electricity, which by using things like induction hobs can be reduced still further.

 

We use the butane cubes - so certainly more expensive than a 19kg bottle - because they fit neatly into the cupboards and are easy to change.  Even so for 5 hobs we use around 3 bottles per year for the 2 of us.  Of course in the end it depends how much you cook, how you cook and whether you can cook several things togather in the over at the same time.  We are probably not very clever at doing that.

[Quillan]

Gas for the hob and electricity for the oven. As a B&B you can imagine how much cooking we do and we get through two 25kg bottles a year which costs us just under 50 Euros. We have a range cooker, we looked at all gas but they are very rare in France unless you like the old looking 'sit up and beg' cookers. A lot of ovens also have an 'Eco' mode as well these days.

Back to the thrust of thread. I was thinking that when you insulate you should think about the reduction of labour costs if you are a reasonable DIY person. You can batten out the walls yourself then have a chat with the electrician so you can run in the Gaines yourself and even pull the cables if you want. You can then add the insulation and even mount the plasterboard yourself then get a plasterer to skim the walls and ceiling afterwards. You wouldn't have to strip the walls back either. If you have damp problems this system will sort some of those out as well and there is loads of information on the Internet on how to do it plus there are one or two professional builders on the forum that can help you with advice. The hardest and most boring job is drilling all those holes to mount the stud-work (its metal stud they use in France). When I did some insulating in my cellar to make a laundry room I bought the insulation directly from the manufacturer who just happens to have their factory 30 minutes down the road from us after being tipped off by a friend and got 30% off the price. This system is brilliant for kitchens because you can make the walls fit the kitchen units rather than have the odd bit of space here and there at the end of kitchen unit runs.

For the telecommunications cabling (for phones, Internet etc) you may be better off buying the cable and outlets in the UK as they may be cheaper. Much of the cable comes in 'Easy pull' box's these day so it's really hassle free to install. The outlets are for pennies if you buy them in the UK, you may have to buy the wall box's from there as well as the outlets may not quite fit the French ones. One tip with the wall box's is to buy one of those solid hole cutters rather than those cutters that are like circular saws where you get a load of different sizes of cutters on one disc. They last much longer and make a better fitting hole.

The only negative thing about this system is you need to really plan ahead accurately where sockets (and water and waste pipes) are going to be because moving or adding ones is very difficult if not impossible after the plasterboard has been fitted.

[powerdesal]

Ref cooking.

We have a 'Range style' bottled gas stove, oven / grill + 4 gas burners + 2 electric rings and use one standard gas bottle each 7 weeks for the two of us, at E21.95 per refill.

[tonyv]

I've on several occasions here extolled the virtues of my ground-source heat pump system.

Like the OP, there's no town gas locally, and I didn't want to rely on deliveries of oil, gas, or wood pellets. I also wanted something fully automatic, without having to "stoke the boiler" daily.

Electricity was thus the only practical solution, given the constraints, and having considered various options, and definately rejected air-source heat pumps on account of the noise, I opted for a ground source heat pump, with underfloor heating.

It was expensive to install (25k€), partly because of a lot of preparatory work being required. It is now the second winter of operation, and I have to say, I'm delighted with it. The temperature throughout the house is a constant  20deg, even in the recent -20deg outside temperatures! Apart from the loft, I have minimal insulation, because I wanted to preserve the original character of the building.

Although it's possible to get an adater for the heat pump to heat domestic water, I've opted for a plain immersion heater for that  purpose. We cook using electricity, powering a induction hob and a double oven.

My total electricity bill for last year was 700€, which I consider a bargain!

[cooperlola]

Gosh you lot cook at lot.  We use 6kg of gas a year (3 rings).

We used to run solid fuel back in the UK but never again.  Far too much work, especially now that I can't get about very well.  It would be virtually impossible for me to live here on my own if we had our old system - I'd need somebody else to come in from time to time and sort the boiler.  Not always a viable option when you're old and/or infirm.  I like the leccy I can just turn on and off and honestly, like Tony, we find it pretty cheap really for a couple of hot house plants with every electric and electronic gadget known to man.[:D]

[Théière]

[quote user="tonyv"]My total electricity bill for last year was 700€, which I consider a bargain!
[/quote]

+ a % of the €25,000 initial install

[Quillan]

[quote user="Théière"]

[quote user="tonyv"]My total electricity bill for last year was 700€, which I consider a bargain!
[/quote]

+ a % of the €25,000 initial install

[/quote]

That's the thing isn't it. I would look at it this way. My annual electricity bill used to be around 1,500 Euros per year which means that the cost of installing is equivalent to me continuing as I was for 16 years for the same cost. I will be dead at the worse or moved on before then at best.

On the other hand my air source pumps have cost, without checking, around 3,000 Euros which would only have bought me two years worth of electricity. With savings of around 60% on electricity on average, well lets say 50% to make it easier, my bill is somewhere near the same as Tony's. So 19k over 16 years to stop a bit of noise you can hardly hear (well you don't hear it at all with the outside doors closed which you tend to do in winter because it's cold out there) for me does not seem that logical but that's me I guess. We like the temperature in our lounge and dinning are to be around 23 deg whilst the bedrooms about 18 deg plus we don't heat them till just before we go to bed and wake up. The warm-up time is quite rapid as is the change in temperature if you need it something which I gather takes a lot longer with underfloor heating. The only very minor inconvenience is that we have to wear slippers because the floor is a bit cold. There is however a very big advantage with underfloor heating in that there are no heating devices hanging off the wall.

[flamesnm]

Thanks again everyone for taking the time to reply. I would be tempted with the GSHP if it was capable of HW and heating, but as it is I think I'm going to rule it out.

I like the idea of a wood pellet/log boiler to a heat store with solar as a top up. I'll need to read up on the heat store options. I think also a split air source heat pump which will provide additional heat and cooling to the lounge and main bedroom will also provide some flexibility. I'll need to check the new internal units though to see whether I can live with them. I'll also need to ensure there are multiple pellet suppliers down in 64.

The bottled gas prices and usage were very interesting, and much lower than I expected. A dual fuel range cooker would fit the bill, and I can revisit PV tubes at some point in the future if they become viable.

So, I have a basic plan. It may go out the window in the first discussion with the prospective builders ( all lined up for the week of 19th March ) but it's a starting point.

[Wilko]

I would have thought that if you insulate the house as much as possible that you are far enough south to run underfloor heating via solar using a hot water storage tank for cloudy days. i am assuming that the Pau you are talking about is in Dept.64.

W

[powerdesal]

flamesnm, you may find this site of interest:- http://www.ukplumbersforums.co.uk/central-heating-forum/18015-thermal-store-accumulator-s-plan-system-2.html

[Araucaria]

[quote user="flamesnm"]Thanks again everyone for taking the time to reply. I would be tempted with the GSHP if it was capable of HW and heating, but as it is I think I'm going to rule it out.

I like the idea of a wood pellet/log boiler to a heat store with solar as a top up. I'll need to read up on the heat store options. I think also a split air source heat pump which will provide additional heat and cooling to the lounge and main bedroom will also provide some flexibility. I'll need to check the new internal units though to see whether I can live with them. I'll also need to ensure there are multiple pellet suppliers down in 64.

The bottled gas prices and usage were very interesting, and much lower than I expected. A dual fuel range cooker would fit the bill, and I can revisit PV tubes at some point in the future if they become viable.

So, I have a basic plan. It may go out the window in the first discussion with the prospective builders ( all lined up for the week of 19th March ) but it's a starting point.

[/quote]

If you are attracted by a pellet boiler, do take the time to look at the wood-chip alternative. Wood chips can be locally sourced, don't require much energy to produce, are basically a waste product of forestry, and are reasonably cheap. The boiler technology is similar to pellets, but normally a pellet boiler won't take chips while a chip boiler will take pellets. All the other plus factors are very similar (the boiler is fully automatic, fed by an archimedes screw from a silo), but the fuel cost is lower and perhaps it's all a bit greener. The initial cost is higher, but if you shop around you may find something you can afford.

The heat store with solar top up is a good idea too: you probably won't need to run the boiler at all in the summer months if you size the solar collectors properly.

[powerdesal]

Whilst wood chip fired heating costs are generally lower than wood pellet costs ( 2.9 pence / kwh vs 4.2 pence / kwh - source biomassenergycentre UK ) the fact is that there are very few wood chip boilers available in 'domestic' sizes.

The smallest I could find was 25 kw with most manufacturers quoting 30 kw and upwards. The cost of wood chip boilers is also considerably greater than wood pellet boilers, generally about double the price as far as my quick search went.

For anyone wanting a 20kw unit ( or smaller ) as I do, there is no chip unit that matches. There is however a large range of pellet boilers with an equally large range of prices.

In terms of heat store size, a plumbing forum quoted a normal ratio of 1000 litres for 20 kw.

To investigate pellet suppliers try www.bois-de-chauffage.net

A start point for pellet boilers is kotly.com a Polish company but are apparently contactable in English. I have yet to locate a French dealer for them but I believe there is one, possibly in the South.

[Araucaria]

[quote user="powerdesal"]Whilst wood chip fired heating costs are generally lower than wood pellet costs ( 2.9 pence / kwh vs 4.2 pence / kwh - source biomassenergycentre UK ) the fact is that there are very few wood chip boilers available in 'domestic' sizes.

The smallest I could find was 25 kw with most manufacturers quoting 30 kw and upwards. The cost of wood chip boilers is also considerably greater than wood pellet boilers, generally about double the price as far as my quick search went. [/quote]

I think there are now smaller wood chip boilers; for example, a quick search shows that KWB do a 15kw one. I don't have much doubt that it will be more expensive than a pellet one - it's made in Austria and I couldn't find a price list. No surprise there.

Your price comparison at Biomass Energy Centre in the UK notes that prices for chips are highly variable (they mention differences of "a factor of two or more": the figure they give is an average). I suspect that the UK may have higher wood-chip prices than France: my own impression is that there is a bit more commercial forestry in France than the UK. I can't quite make the comparison with the UK figures as we buy by volume not weight.

We are currently paying just under €500 for 15 cubic meters of chips, but I have no idea what this weighs. It comes from a farmer a couple of fields away, though he has to hire the special lorry to deliver it - it's blown out of a pipe attached to the lorry and straight into our silo.

I guess it's worth saying that (as shown on that comparison you quote) electricity is five times as expensive as wood chips ......

[Quillan]

Just as a matter of interest how long does €500 worth of chips last?

[Araucaria]

[quote user="Quillan"]Just as a matter of interest how long does €500 worth of chips last?[/quote]

Last year we only used the one delivery (the silo was filled in January 2011 and January 2012) - but I suspect with the very cold weather last month we will be refilling in November or maybe earlier. Our silo only holds a fraction more than 15 cu metres so we wait until it is almost completely empty before getting another delivery. It's quite a big house: three floors each about 95 sq metres.