metal studs for partition walls

[oemodm]

Hello everyone,

Hoping for some guidance on:

1 >>>>>>>>>>>>

For building a partition wall with metal studs, what's the suggested method, A to E...

A = 48mm studs, doubled back to back on 600mm centres

B = A, but on 400mm centres

C = 70mm single studs, 600mm centres

D = C, but on 400mm centres

E = C, but doubled back to back

I've seen so many variations I don't know what to go for.

2 >>>>>>>>>>>>>

Plaster boarding a stone wall. Easiest/quickest way to fix mid point of 48mm metal stud to the stone wall? (will have a 150mm gap for insulation). Bearing in mind stone wall is uneven and a drilling nightmare + have a huge amount of these studs to put in. I thought of mounting a 48mm rail horizontally at the mid point, to which the verticals could be screwed to more easily.

many thanks / simon

[andyh4]

Simon

1.  The answer will depend on the width of your plasterboard - if 60cm you need 60 or 30cm centres, if 120cm you need 60 or 40cm centres.  (mine is 90cm wide so different again, but this is not commonly available).  The choice of 50 or 70 mm width depends really on height.  The higher you need to go, the more you need to think about the 70mm studs rather than nominal 50mm.

2.  For a high wall you can do as you suggest, but you must support midwall for a span above around 2m.  If it is hard work to fix to the wall, buy a decent but not necessarily expensive SDS hammer drill.  I struggled for years with a notional hammer drill that blunted bits and tickled stone and concrete.  When I bought a 40€ SDS drill, what a difference.

[Chancer]

I use single studs on 60cm centres, if you position them carefully you dont need to double them up.

I secure top and bottom and support the middle with expanded foam, it prevents a pont thermique.

[dave21478]

Good idea with the foam!

For supporting the middle, I generally cut offcuts of wood to the correct length, screw one end to the rail and the other gets glued to the wall with good quality adhesive.

Last time I put some up, I noticed the plasterboard was printed saying it should be fixed at 40cm centres, which seems excessive to me. I always do it at 60cm, which I find to be ok for normal plasterboard.

[oemodm]

For securing at the mid-point, I thought of similar. Knocking a small hole in the stone wall, filling with expanding foam, nudging the end of 150mm rail cut off into it, and screwing it to the vertical rail at its mid point. I just concerned about the foam unsticking from dirty/dusty stone in the long term.

[oemodm]

[quote user="andyh4"]

Simon

1.  The answer will depend on the width of your plasterboard - if 60cm you need 60 or 30cm centres, if 120cm you need 60 or 40cm centres.  (mine is 90cm wide so different again, but this is not commonly available).  The choice of 50 or 70 mm width depends really on height.  The higher you need to go, the more you need to think about the 70mm studs rather than nominal 50mm.

2.  For a high wall you can do as you suggest, but you must support midwall for a span above around 2m.  If it is hard work to fix to the wall, buy a decent but not necessarily expensive SDS hammer drill.  I struggled for years with a notional hammer drill that blunted bits and tickled stone and concrete.  When I bought a 40€ SDS drill, what a difference.

[/quote]

Thank you Andy,

1 = Plasterboard width = 1.2m, wall height about 2.2m. What would you suggest please? 70's or 48's, spacing and if double up please?

2 = SDS hammer drill. OK, added to shopping lists. But what kind of drill bits? (drilling into stone blunts drill bits so fast).

thanks / simon

[Lehaut]

When we have used this system to fix to concrete floors etc, we have drilled through the "rail" with an sds drill and used the small wall fixings to knock straight through without having to move the rail again, which you would have to do if using traditional rawplugs. You can screw out the fixings if need be. Have used the tiny self tapping screws to fix the uprights, but if I do it again, will buy the crimping tool. Screw are very fiddly imo.

Some uprights seem to have more holes than others, need to line them up to string the gain through.

[oemodm]

[quote user="Lehaut"]When we have used this system to fix to concrete floors etc, we have drilled through the "rail" with an sds drill and used the small wall fixings to knock straight through without having to move the rail again, which you would have to do if using traditional rawplugs. You can screw out the fixings if need be. Have used the tiny self tapping screws to fix the uprights, but if I do it again, will buy the crimping tool. Screw are very fiddly imo.

Some uprights seem to have more holes than others, need to line them up to string the gain through.[/quote]

Unfortunately, I don't have the luxury of smooth flat regular concrete. Beefy stone walls to contend with......

[oemodm]

[quote user="Lehaut"]When we have used this system to fix to concrete floors etc, we have drilled through the "rail" with an sds drill and used the small wall fixings to knock straight through without having to move the rail again, which you would have to do if using traditional rawplugs. You can screw out the fixings if need be. Have used the tiny self tapping screws to fix the uprights, but if I do it again, will buy the crimping tool. Screw are very fiddly imo.

Some uprights seem to have more holes than others, need to line them up to string the gain through.[/quote]

Unfortunately, I don't have the luxury of smooth flat regular concrete. Beefy stone walls to contend with......

[Théière]

[quote user="oemodm"] I don't have the luxury of smooth flat regular concrete. Beefy stone walls to contend with......[/quote]

and an echo [:D]

[John Brown]

Search YouTube for Partition walls/ metal frame work

You can pick up some useful ideas, although they show ideal conditions to work in

My tips would be invest in a set of Aircraft Fitter's Tin Snips for cutting steel work, makes easy work of it

BQ do a set of 3, LH, RH and Straight for about £28.00

and get the adapter for your drill/driver that holds the screw while you drive it in

Best of luck

JB

[andyh4]

[quote user="oemodm"][quote user="andyh4"]

Simon

1.  The answer will depend on the width of your plasterboard - if 60cm you need 60 or 30cm centres, if 120cm you need 60 or 40cm centres.  (mine is 90cm wide so different again, but this is not commonly available).  The choice of 50 or 70 mm width depends really on height.  The higher you need to go, the more you need to think about the 70mm studs rather than nominal 50mm.

2.  For a high wall you can do as you suggest, but you must support midwall for a span above around 2m.  If it is hard work to fix to the wall, buy a decent but not necessarily expensive SDS hammer drill.  I struggled for years with a notional hammer drill that blunted bits and tickled stone and concrete.  When I bought a 40€ SDS drill, what a difference.

[/quote]

 

Thank you Andy, 1 = Plasterboard width = 1.2m, wall height about 2.2m. What would you suggest please? 70's or 48's, spacing and if double up please?

 

2 = SDS hammer drill. OK, added to shopping lists. But what kind of drill bits? (drilling into stone blunts drill bits so fast). thanks / simon[/quote]

 

I would use 48mm at 60cm centres.  If you have the crimping tool you can probably use single uprights, if not and you are using screws to fix the rails and montants, I would be tempted to double up which gives more latitude is the upright moves slightly during fixing.

 

You will neeed SDS bits to fit the drill (or an adaptor for standard bits) and you will find that magically the drills do not blunt in the same way.  However Chancer's solution sounds like a really good one - so you can probably put off the purchase of the drill for now.  I would still recommend getting one though for other jobs which are bound to crop up, I could not believe how non-hammer my old hammer drill was until I got the SDS.

[oemodm]

Thank you again Andy. I will take your advice well.

Just regarding the mid points on framework fitting in front of stone wall. Chancer does have a nice idea. The only reason I'd hesitate on it is this. As the rails will be 150mm off a stone wall (will be insulating more), I'd need a rail cut off to brace between the stone wall & rail mid point. Would knocking out a bit of the stone wall, filling with PU spray foam & nudging in the end of a rail cut off (150mm long), screwing the other end to the vertical rail mid point. I just worry the PU spray foam might unstick in the long term from the stone.

(I've already bought a few sets of snips, crimpers & some of those drill bits which limit how deep a screw sets into the board).

[NormanH]

I am about to do something like this in a room in my new appartment, but don't understand any of the vocabulary you chaps are using..

SDS hammer drill      crimping...vertical rail mid point......studs..PU spray foam ....pont thermique[:-))]

Any chance of an explanation in simple English?

[dave21478]

If you are putting up a plasterboard wall, you need to build a metal framework to hold the sheets of plaster. This framework is generally composed of rails fixed to floor and ceiling, with vertical sections, called studs, every 60 cm to fix the plasterboard to. This framework can be screwed together with wee self-tapping screws bit it is much quicker and easier to buy the proper crimping tool which crimps two parts of the framework together.

The problem is that unless you are a hobbit, most walls will be around 2.5 meters tall more or less, and that length is a bit too long for the wall to be just supported at floor and ceiling - it will be wobbly and likely to crack if leaned upon. Hence you need to fix the studs at their centrepoint to the wall behind. Various ways of doing this as mentioned above. I like to cut bits of wood to the right size and screw one end to the rail and glue the other to the wall. Chancer suggests the nifty idea of using a glob of expanding foam - this eliminates a solid point of contact between your new wall and the old behind it, which is a pont thermique and can transfer heat away.

sds hammer drill is a heavy duty drill for drilling into stone. Many electric drills have a hammer action for drilling stone, but its pretty lightweight and can have difficulties with certain types of stone. An SDS drill is much more powerful and will drill into even the hardest rocks with relative ease.

SDS drills use a certain type of quick-release chuck to hold the drill bits, but require the correct sds compatible drills. Quite often an adaptor to fit a normal drill chuck is included in the box, allowing use of normal drill bits.

[Lehaut]

Very succinct dave. Would add that the SDS chisel action is also very effective, espcially with the flat blade for clearing tiles off a wall. Even the cheap 40 euro SDS drills come with enough bits to do the majority of jobs, a brilliant piece of kit.

[NormanH]

[quote user="dave21478"]If you are putting up a plasterboard wall, you need to build a metal framework to hold the sheets of plaster. This framework is generally composed of rails fixed to floor and ceiling, with vertical sections, called studs, every 60 cm to fix the plasterboard to. This framework can be screwed together with wee self-tapping screws bit it is much quicker and easier to buy the proper crimping tool which crimps two parts of the framework together.

The problem is that unless you are a hobbit, most walls will be around 2.5 meters tall more or less, and that length is a bit too long for the wall to be just supported at floor and ceiling - it will be wobbly and likely to crack if leaned upon. Hence you need to fix the studs at their centrepoint to the wall behind. Various ways of doing this as mentioned above. I like to cut bits of wood to the right size and screw one end to the rail and glue the other to the wall. Chancer suggests the nifty idea of using a glob of expanding foam - this eliminates a solid point of contact between your new wall and the old behind it, which is a pont thermique and can transfer heat away.

sds hammer drill is a heavy duty drill for drilling into stone. Many electric drills have a hammer action for drilling stone, but its pretty lightweight and can have difficulties with certain types of stone. An SDS drill is much more powerful and will drill into even the hardest rocks with relative ease.

SDS drills use a certain type of quick-release chuck to hold the drill bits, but require the correct sds compatible drills. Quite often an adaptor to fit a normal drill chuck is included in the box, allowing use of normal drill bits.[/quote]

Thank you VERY much....that is clear even to me [:D]

[Chancer]

Yes very good, feel free to ask more questions when you get stuck in Norman.

You did of course probably understand  what a pont thermique means in English but perhaps were unsure what a cold bridge (or even heat bridge) meant in practice.

The advantage of putting up a rail and plasterboard skin to an external wall is heat insulation (normally you infill between the montants with insulation) if the metal rail touches the outside wall which we desire for stability it will create a path or bridge for heat loss, steel being a good conductor.

We all have our ways of bidouilling an intermediate support, the correct "French way" is not to use montants and rails but to use fouururres and coulisses, all the manufacturers sell intermediate adjustable "appuis" in low conductivity plastic which simply clip into the fourrures and can be slid to the required position.

In theory doing it the correct way should be cheaper, fourrures use less steel and cost less per M length, the coulisses should be the same story but they cost an absolute fortune.

anyone know where they can be found for a "correct" price as I have hundreds of metres of fourrures?

[Lehaut]

BOÎTE DE 50 APPUIS INTERMÉDIAIRES PVC 56 euros for 50, is this a fortune?

[Chancer]

To me yes, but then to others time is money.

Are they for montants or fourrures?

[oemodm]

1 = http://www.bricodepot.fr/toulon/50-appuis-intermediaires/prod11875/

2 = I've done a quick drawing to explain both my poor ability of drawing + my idea for mid point fixing on stone uneven walls.

Image link = http://s15.postimg.org/6h1ttseqx/picture_4.png

A = Uneven stone wall

B = Expanding foam between wall & wall mounted rail (48mm). Rail is bolted to wall, but backed with expanding foam.

C = Screw into chevron cut off (between wall rail and mid rail D). Screw C, is screwing one end of chevron cut off to wall rail.

D = 48mm rail

E = Screw rail to chevron

If the vertical rail is kept installed well, then all the chevron cut offs could be swan at the same length. Whilst wood is less prone to cold bridging than metal, you could still lay some insulation foam inside the wall rail, before screwing the chevron to it.

I'm going to run with this as have 100's to put in. Would love some feedback on this.

[oemodm]

Following from my last post.

You could use PVC pipe, instead of chevron cut off, benefiting from reducing cold bridging without extra insulation. This would bring the price down to 0.10 or so.