OAP

[Evianers]

One wonders what impact Adair Turner's far reaching report on the state of the British pension scheme will have on those of us who are hoping to benefit within, say, 5 years. Will we be paid - will there be sufficient in the coffers? Worrying thought.

[Teamedup]

It is said that France is in an even worse situation than the UK with regards to this. People are striking for their pensions here and to get them early too, which probably won't make financial sense in the future.

I've mentioned it before, but Michel Druker did a very interesting documentary about this years ago. His hypothesis was the young ended up living in fortresses to look after their kids as there wasn't enough to go around and certainly not enough ressources for the old. The old then created armies etc and would raid these fortresses. Certainly made me think about it all. And my sympathy then, as a mother with young children, and now as someone getting on a bit, went out to the young, with their kids.

[Iceni]

[quote]One wonders what impact Adair Turner's far reaching report on the state of the British pension scheme will have on those of us who are hoping to benefit within, say, 5 years. Will we be paid - will th...[/quote]

As someone who will get her pension in just over 2 years I have been following this with more than mild interest.

Yes, it will have an effect on everyone, those who now are pensioners and those who become one in the future. It is not just OAP's, there is no 'pot' for the civil servants and as the gov. is the biggest employer in the UK and I gather MP's only have to work for one 4/5 year stint to guarantee a good pension (I think they have the best pension deal of any civil servants) this will also have an effect as the current firemen and teachers can strike, the OAP's cannot.

The most worrying thing I have seen is that some of the suggested solutions have the words 'resident in the UK' written into them. This could be bad for us, but also bad for those who have worked in France and want to retire back to the UK as all these systems are reciprocal and so if the UK only pay pensions to those resident in the UK, what do you think the French will do who I gather are in rather deeper trouble?

This is all speculation, but what is not is the yearly 'smash and grab' raid on pension funds by prudence Brown. I think the figure I saw was that his take to date added up to 50% of the total shortfall and while that goes on why should companies and private individuals feel like saving?

No, I don't know what will happen, but I don't think it will be an improvement what ever it is.

I am not the pessimist that some forecasters are, but that is because I 'know' that the average pensioner will have to live on a lot less and have made plans to do this. Those that have never saved and don't have the frugal streak that some of us have (some say mean) will find life very very hard, either in the UK or France.

[Alexis]

I don't know anything about these proposals.....  For many years I have had no faith whatsoever in either country being able to keep me in a manner I would very much like to be accustomed to!

Because of this, I have tried to guarantee a decent standard of living without having to rely on pensions.  They, hopefully, will be the cherry.  We will see.  Of course, it is absolutely YEARS before I retire!!!!!!

[Miki]

An old friend who played soccer for me many years ago, was a pension and finance director for a very well known high street chain shop.

He often used to tak about pensions and looking after your money. On occasion he was even on the old BBC2 Sunday money programme, once talking about the power of bonding amongst his colleagues and paintballing was a good way to bond.......sorry I digress !

Once, in a quiet moment I asked him what kind of pension he recommended, he looked at me, looked around (it was then I thought he was finally going to buy a round of drinks !) and said in all seriousness, " put every penny you have in to bricks and mortar and keep doing that until you retire, me I am going to extend and  improve my house until I can't improve or enlarge it anymore and there will sit my pension" (Alexis, ring any bells?)

He never had a pension and didn't fully believe in them, always worrying about world forces and the known fact that the elderley would be living longer and put a strain on not only governemnet pensions but private ones as well.

Has anyone seen the poster here and there and I have seen it in one or two mags as well about how many people are required to pay for one persons pension today and how the equivalent in 10 years will look ? I have forgotten what year it was when it would take one for one or even two for one to come around, has anyone the details?

 

 

[Iceni]

Mikki

The problem you have is that many of the older group in the population have nice big houses, those at the bottom cannot even afford a prefab - so when the 'baby boomers' want to sell, who will buy, and where will you live when you sell? You can only realise part of your asset.

The richest people I ever met - well those who had the best fun in retirement had nothing, well they had a council house and lived on benefits. They had worked all their lives but never had much and came from a part of society who had never owned their own houses. They had free prescriptions, low council rent and council tax and as he had a nice but small railway pension; they went everywhere by train - for free. They had never had a debt and bought all their Christmas presents in the January sales. They had never been so rich.

Saving money is an outdated idea, be it bricks and mortar or private pensions (and YES we are still stuck with our Equitable lump) or even - dare I say it, saving money in an account which you do not spend until you are in retirement. Anyone who bucks the trend and saves will have a better retirement than those who do not.

[Miki]

Di,

The old friend I was talking about sold his pile for a fortune, bought an apartment in Southern Spain and a smaller place in Sussex. He still had bundles left and added to his savings he should not have to work again, aged 57. With all due respect to anyone with a pension policy, you ain't gonna gain dare I say big time like him ! (lucky ba*****, no that's not right, he wasn't lucky, he knew how it was and I didn't).

My feelings are that at the top of the pile, added to old money you have plenty of folk who are new money, and the houses at the higher middle to top dollar, although they will feel the pinch as will others in a bust scenario, those houses will, in normal times, find buyers, not just now but always have done through history, past, present and dare I say, future.

What you seem to be predicting, is a house sales stalemate. We are reading recently that in the near future tens of thousands of houses are due to be built and that is just in the south east, to keep up with the need for housing, they will sell, no doubt.

"The richest people I ever met - well those who had the best fun in retirement had nothing, well they had a council house and lived on benefits. They had worked all their lives but never had much and came from a part of society who had never owned their own houses. They had free prescriptions, low council rent and council tax and as he had a nice but small railway pension; they went everywhere by train - for free. They had never had a debt and bought all their Christmas presents in the January sales. They had never been so rich."

Were they really rich or were they, for the first time in their lifetime much better off than they had ever been  before? Well yes, you have admitted that.

The real thing about that case is yes, they had a feeling of richness and good luck to them but as you are aware, their "richness" is at the expense of other workers and taxpayers who worked hard to save, whereas these folk had nothing, so claim benefits, nothing wrong with that if they are geniuine cases but Rich, no, not in the real sense is it ?

Saving money is an outdated idea, be it bricks and mortar or private pensions (and YES we are still stuck with our Equitable lump) or even - dare I say it, saving money in an account which you do not spend until you are in retirement.

Not sure about this DI, if saving money is an outdated idea and so is investing in bricks and mortar or private pensions, then what's left? then what does the final sentence mean ?

"Anyone who bucks the trend and saves will have a better retirement than those who do not"

Are you therefore saying, yes, it is outdated but still the only way?

You may be stuck with your Equitable lump, how lucky were we then, we bought ours with Allied Crowbar but at least Zurich thought them good enough to buy out !! still our pensions have been frozen so long now, I can't see them ever coming back to life ! 

[Iceni]

Hi Miki

Yes, I am saying that saving is an outdated idea and the only way in which people can provide for their old age, in whatever way they do it. 

Today, many with large houses are mortgaged up to the eyeballs and there is very little leeway if the prices drop. I have to quote UK details here (sorry) as I do not have the French ones, but I am sure France is not so bad, they are simply that the average UK household owes above and beyond their mortgage the equivalent to one years income - gross. To me this is simply scary. Perhaps the French system stops this type if lunacy, I really hope so.

If you have a life of little, retiring with no money worries must seem like heaven. If you have the life of Riley and retire with 10% of what you are used to, it must be hell - who are the richer, mentally and in reality. I also don't see why my friends who had never been in debt would be more of a drain on the taxpayer than someone else who in retirement with a state pension would get the same type of allowances (at least my poor friends had managed to save a small extra pension during their lives), and lets not forget that now pensioners in the UK, regardless of size of pension and income get cheap heat and light, paid for by the non pension payers, all pensioners are a drain on the workers (this is without going into the scary politics of state pension provision which was the original question).

Ah well, this is all moot. As I said in a post some time ago about people coming to France, but which in reality is my mantra for life, why do people go through life expecting someone else to provide, a little savings go a long way and allow you to at least sleep at night.

[Miki]

I also don't see why my friends who had never been in debt would be more of a drain on the taxpayer than someone else who in retirement with a state pension would get the same type of allowances (at least my poor friends had managed to save a small extra pension during their lives),

 

Di,

 

My point about “at the expense of taxpayers” was based on your previous posting, where you stated :

 

“The richest people I ever met - well those who had the best fun in retirement had nothing, well they had a council house and lived on benefits”

 

I think perhaps that your wording misled me. I personally have always associated the term benefits as the normal terminology for the handouts that one can claim if one has little or no entitlement to a pension or claiming dole etc, because one hasn’t paid ones dues during a working life.

 

I suspect that perhaps it wasn’t actually handouts but earned entitlements they were living on wasn’t it, as he was entitled to a railway pension so I would think the chap earned his entitlements ? 

[Hoddy]

Entitlement - thanks for that Miki. I reckon that I’m entitled.

I worked for 40 years before I retired. When I was a young married woman I could have taken the option of paying a reduced “married woman’s stamp” which I chose not to do. For most of my working life I paid income tax. I had the good fortune to be able make some pension provision of my own. Thank goodness ! My state pension is £91.44 per week and I get £100 winter heating allowance. As far as I’m aware the only other “benefit” I get is free prescriptions, which thankfully I haven’t needed so far.

I certainly feel “entitled” and I’m still paying income tax.

I count myself extremely fortunate to be in this position. No dependents and no mortgage makes a big difference, but I worry about my grown-up children and what kind of a state they will be in when they’re my age. It's difficult for them to decide what to do.

Hoddy

[Tresco]

It is very difficult to know what to do. I know a few people who have lost money buying into what turned out to be very dodgy investment schemes. The people who have all my sympathy though, are the post war people who believed all that 'cradle to grave' stuff.

It seems obvious to us now, with hindsight, but the post war generation were really duped. I have read much of the literature from that period, and seen most of the films etc, very convincing.

What really, seriously annoys me is that 'that generation' includes people who underwent hardships and horrors that I hope I never have to endure, and that by the time things became clear, it was far too late for them to do anything about it. Even worse, that was the generation who abhored and avoided 'handouts' of any kind, the people who grew up either remembering the 'poor, and work house systems, or knowing about it through their parents.