Haggling down a price

[Nearly Retired (I am now)]

I'm not talking in the supermarket or the marche for that matter, but I do like to get the best price I can for the "big items". Not had much success though.

1) A carpenter gave my (french) neighbour and I a devis for a bit of fence work on the shared boundary. At 1000 euros it was way over a fair price. My neighbour suggested only 800 euros and the carpenter replied (in french!) " take it or leave it". We left it.

2) A swimming pool firm gave me a devis of around 35000 euros for a 10 x 5 pool with 2m wide terrace all around. I told them it was a bit much and they reduced it by 800 euros and would budge no further. I've had offers of unknown specification through this site for 20000 -ish so I reckon there must be some scope for movement in the 35k price.

I will now have no fence and no pool by next summer. Is it just me, or do others find the artisans hard to beat down.

 

 

[Nick Trollope]

Generally speaking, Artisans worth their registration can pick and choose their jobs, leave alone be beaten down on price.

I would never negotiate a price, without reducing the specification.

 

[suein56]

***A carpenter gave my (french) neighbour and I a devis for a bit of fence work on the shared boundary. At 1000 euros it was way over a fair price. My neighbour suggested only 800 euros and the carpenter replied (in french!) " take it or leave it". We left it.***

Fair comment, but have you seen the price of 1/2 way decent fence panels in your Brico eg LeRoy Merlin or wherever- we have and were astonished. The panels are better quality here but are not cheap. Your chap might have been/was probably quoting for good quality, long lasting panels.

Sue

[Teamedup]

Artisans being beaten down?

They have all the social charges people after them for money which they want paying in advance. We know a few artisans and they make a decent living through hard work, but none are rich.

[Eslier]

Before trying to haggle on price you should be aware of the other side of the story. Generally speaking, if an artisan is prepared to reduce his price, this won't be at the expense of taking a cut in the profit he is going to make out of the job. His first consideration might be "can I cut back on the quantity or quality of the materials ?" His second consideration will be something like "can I rush this job though in two days rather than three - even though the quality of workmanship might not be the same ?" Now if you are prepared to accept these compromises then, by all means, try and get the price reduced but please do so with your eyes open. What you will find, in France, is that most artisans take a huge pride in the quality of their workmanship and often aren't interested in cutting corners. You will nearly always get what you pay for.

If, of course, you only want, or can only afford a 20,000€ swimming pool then that's fine you will be able to find someone who will give you that. BUT don't expect it to be the same as the one that was going to cost 35,000€ because it won't be.

Having said all that, I am sure there are some people out there who see the Brits coming and believe it is an easy way to make money. To avoid these people, only use local companies or artisans that have been recommended to you.

I hope you manage to find exactly what you are looking for.

[Nearly Retired (I am now)]

Thanks for the views. Mine, for what it's worth, is that the average frenchman lives in the "comfort zone". A bit controversial I know but that's how I see it. Maybe it's a little bit like the UK 30 years ago (And maybe that's why we are here now.)

I don't accept the better quality bit - I've very good idea about building pricing, I do it for a living. I just guess the attitude is that "the day starts at 9 stops 12 until 2 and ends around 6. I can only get so much done in that time, and expect a good day's pay for it."

Back to the fence: it's to be 3m long & 2m high with already fixed posts at each end. The chippy wanted to do it in tongue and groove floorboards rather than panels - I thought it might look quite good when he proposed it but not 1000 euros. 2 panels and an afternoon's work with my neighbour will sort it. I'm even minded to bring the panels from UK!!!!

[Teamedup]

I have no idea as to what you  are talking about. I don't know of one artisan who starts at 9. They are always at it at around 7.30. As far as charging is concerned, due to the french governments determination to make life hard for small businesses they pay huge amounts in social charges.

You seem to have this drole d'idee about France. You have obviously moved somewhere where the housing stock is cheap and then think everyone is out to rob you, and should be content with what you are offering. And as to expectations as to what a person should expect from life........ well, I think you are way off the mark. I don't know whether you meant it but you sound colonialist, like the natives should be happy with their lot...... what! What an appalling thought!

Not everything in France is cheap. Fact is lots of France is expensive. And in our expensive bits of France likely the costs for a fence or pool would be similar to those that you have been asked for. Maybe as you have bought somewhere inexpensive it seems unreasonably high to pay out such amounts but I would imagine that you are being asked the going rate. And ofcourse not everyone can afford artisans and such was ever the case since I have been here, hence so many people resort to bricolage. 25 years ago the brico shops were amazing things here, which surely reflects that people had the need and had to go for doing it themselves.

 

[Dick Smith]

I'm distressed that anyone thinks that artisans are people to 'beat down'. I've always had devis which look pretty reasonable to me, both French and English, and no big differences when getting several for the same job/spec. No-one is making a fortune out of them. I can't believe that a €20,000 devis is the same as a €35,000 one. Sorry, just don't believe it.

"Beat down" = "take the bread out of the mouth of", in my opinion, and I agree with TU completely in her views on this.

[Nearly Retired (I am now)]

What a boring lot you are. My comments were deliberately controversial ( I said so) so as to get a bit of a chat going.

It seems I managed to upset one or two. Why be so defensive about the country you've chosen to escape to - it not all perfect, not everybody is fair and reasonable and it does have its faults you know! 

I'll ask again I wonder why I find it more difficult to get say 10% off here rather than in UK. Does everybody pay full price for everything e.g house, cars etc.

 

[Iceni]

Or possibly over charging is more rife in UK ?

John

not

 

[Dick Smith]

No I don't ask for a discount for everything. If an estimate seems reasonable I accept it. I don't haggle in Sainsbury's so why should I haggle at the garage or with builders? I can refuse any estimate if I don't like it.

I actually think that what you are suggesting is a sign of being mean (rather like the €4 masonry bits), as these people have to live too. If I can't afford something I don't do it or buy it.

And 'controversial posting' is just another way of saying trolling, isn't it? Your post seems to have a lot in common with others who have turned up on the forum, made a 'controversial' post and then, when people post contra say 'it was all a bit of a joke, you lot are all boring/can't take a joke' etc.

Most amusing...

[Teamedup]

Firstly I agree that France isn't perfect.

I did not 'escape' anywhere. We moved here and we'll soon be moving on c'est tout! One thing is for sure, judging by your posts, if you had moved here when we did you would likely have had some sort of seizure. Prices way back then were HIGH for just about everything, practically each day had me wide eyed and incredulous as someone would tell me how much it would cost for X Y or Z. 

Haggling is not a french thing, maybe you should have moved to Italy if you wanted to do that. I shop around and would never take just one estimate for any job anyway.

[Debra]

I find that in the area I live in you're lucky to find someone to do a job and wouldn't dream of haggling!  We've had responses such as 'we haven't got time to take on small jobs like that - maybe phone us in six months time to see if we can do it six months from then'.  From the sound of it on these forum's, its pretty much the same in France, so why would anyone haggle?  Yes, get a few quotes - if you can find artisans who are available to do the work and quote for it - and check carefully what you are getting for each quote and then go for the best one.  If one is a lot cheaper than another, wouldn't it be best to ask the more expensive one why?  I'm sure they would be able to come up with a valid reason such as better materials.....and if not, they might lower their price anyway to get the job!  (IF they need the work, which certainly wouldn't be the case where I live).

[Nearly Retired (I am now)]

[quote]No I don't ask for a discount for everything. If an estimate seems reasonable I accept it. I don't haggle in Sainsbury's so why should I haggle at the garage or with builders? I can refuse any estimat...[/quote]

Mr Esteemed Guru surely it is not your place to get personal and be  put out when some interloper upsets your fiefdom.

Kindly read my initial post and tell me where I'm being mean - looking for good value I call it. If you pay full price for any big-ticket item you're either shy or have too much money.

Now, you tell me - did you pay full price for your car? In my experience every quote from a business for a costly item is open to negotation - it now just seems to me not to be the way in France for building. Maybe it's the devi culture - as it's a contract document and written down then maybe it's just too much to change it again.

 

[Teamedup]

Excuse me but Dick Smith did not ask for the title guru. These 'titles' are placed there automatically when a person has made a certain number of postings. I find it very annoying that gibes are made just because someone posts on here.

I am wondering how much success you will have negociating. I thought I was pretty good at it until I got here. I've walked out of places and all sorts, but vendors are simply intransigent 99.5% of the time.

[Dick Smith]

Yes, TU,you are right.

And yes, 'Nearly Retired' I paid the asking price for my car - it was good value, thanks. I still think that trying to stiff everybody for a few quid is mean. But hey - what do I know? We're all daft ******s compared to you, aren't we?

[Ty Korrigan]

According to my French father in law, 2% is a normal discount if a cash payment is offered. He is often amazed at the discounts I am able to negociate back in the 53rd state and also the low prices of many goods in comparison to France. Yes haggling is unknown here. Even when I proposed to spend 40k on materials at a builders merchant there was no better discount than if I went to 'Brico-mat'

I also proposed to spend 10k of my entreprise start up budget with one supplier who just offered to throw in oil and blades when I asked him "What can you do on the price?"

Playing one supplier off against another doesn't seem to have any effect at all!

 

[Orion]

My 4 'local' building material suppliers will all match each others devis. One will look at devis from the other 3 and match each price and normally beat one to make the deal - the discount on this item is normally nominal. I have now completed this exercise 4 times but sometimes it is hardly worth the effort. I think LeClerc Bati and Bricomarche offer the best prices on their promotions but the offers are limited in time and of course the range of materials.  I have found that delivery costs are flexible for larger orders.

My experience with artisans is (1) 50% don't come to quote and (2) 50% of those who come don't quote - so they are something of a precious commodity.  When I asked a question about the cost of an item the first reponse to me was that's the price and it will not change - it actully wasn't the answer to the question I asked. I wouldn't haggle with an artisan if I didn;t like the price I would look elsewhere.

I bought a swimming pool and have had some succes at haggling. Umlike other metiers these businesses make and keep appointments - they are hungry for work. Part of my approach was to get a basic price for the pool with identical specs - show thw cheapest to the other companies and arrive see if they woulod match the price. When I was happy with the basic price I lasked for extras at or near cost e.g pool covers and roller and robot. I arrived at a price which I was happy with and I presume the company I chose was happy with.

Overall its a mixed bag but what's the harm in asking?

Bill

[Nearly Retired (I am now)]

Well thanks guys - this proves the worth of such a forum. My question has been answered. We still don't appear to be any the wiser about "WHY?", but it certainly seems that discounts are hard to find outside special promotions and it's probably not worth wasting one's time looking for them.

My time on here has been well spent - Thanks.

[Teamedup]

The WHY? I just figure that the french fundamentally do not have a good sense of commerce. It isn't the way things have ever been done here and still isn't. Drives me mad. I've seen a shop keeper with his last article that is out of date and shabby looking refuse, I mean refuse to sell at under the stated price. It makes absolutely no sense to me at all and never has.

One does learn to look out for sales and promotions and that is how we buy most of our goods. They don't usually do that with services, and one has to cough up after shopping around.

[Ty Korrigan]

Teamedup is so very correct with this observation. 

[Lizzie15]

Yep,I agree with this.I've had loads of quotes over the years and would not try to bring the price down,just get another quote if you're not happy! I must add that I do love a bargain( who doesn't?)and at brocantes etc haggle with the best of them but that's expected,haggling with the artisans isn't !!

 

[zeb]

Remember folks, the customer is KING!

We sent customer a devi last week and he contacted us, saying he is disappointed as the devi is more expensive than he anticipated. We want the job so spent the whole weekend working out how we could give a cheaper quote. In the end it meant cutting corners and buying cheaper materials - he's quite happy with that but it doesn't make any sense to us.

Another customer ( a French resident for 7 years) a couple of months ago offered us STERLING cash for a 2k euro job. We asked HIM to pay it into our bank in France (plus enough to cover charges), he was surprised as he thought we'd be so happy at the thought of so much cash that we'd give him a big discount! I know, I know - we should've just pocketed it but I couldn't think how I could possibly spend it!

[Iceni]

A-----I have overheads, I have equipment that I have to keep current and I have software - loads of it that I have to have legal licenses for - some renewable every year (and now it is licensed over the net they pull the plug if I do not pay - so no dodgy CD's or OEM stuff in the type of work I do). I have cotisations to pay and all the other charges.

B-----I have household expenses that go up (take petrol and heating), I have to earn a living.

So when someone asks for a discount I look at A and B and realise that none of them are going to give me a discount or a 'bit on the black' so I have no choice, I have to charge a rate I can live on.

There is a way I work which my clients find transparent and they all know where they stand. No-one asks me for a discount as they know it is not possible. The alternative is to put up my rates and then give a 'discount' which is not a real discount at all.

If I won't give a discount, why should I expect my accountant or my mason to give me one.

There is a living wage, if you really think that your supplier is asking too much remember that the gov take a huge slice of the price - less materials - and what is left - the labour part for the job is what he and his family have to live on, pay their insurances and other charges before even thinking of buying a private vehicle etc.

I actually find it quite funny that people get upset that workers in France will not haggle the way workers in other countries will - each country is different and 'when in Rome' etc. Mind, you sometimes have to be very patient with the system or in some cases, very very patient.

[WJT]

We showed a few devis on some work we need doing to a few of our French neighbours. They were quite shocked and were aware of the artisans in the area having two prices. We are still unsure about what we are going to do but feel uncomfortable going ahead with someone local at three times the fair price just to appear friendly.  We were specifically warned about a few in our local village!  You can be one of the English that will accept anything not wanting to send something back or complaining about poor service for fear of causing upset. Or you can gain respect by demanding value for money. At the moment the artisans are so busy they can take advantage, in our case give a silly price and if accepted they may fit you in. I personally believe this is all about to change with the slow down and we will be looking to receive devis from other artisans more keen or just wait a little while. In my humble opinion, you do not need to be a mug just because you are an Englishman in France .