How do they know ?

[AnOther]

This is sure to get me ripped to pieces I know but if one doesn't tell the French taxman about something, say a pension tax free lump sum for instance, how will he find out about it otherwise. Do the UK notify the French authorities if someone on an E106 or E121 comes into such a sum I wonder ?

Standing by......................[blink] [blink] [blink]

[cooperlola]

Well, you do have to declare all your bank accounts held outside France, when you do your tax return, so I guess that the threat is that they could look at those if they needed to or felt one were living above one's means.  But then, if you're a natural cheat, I guess you just wouldn't declare the accounts in the first place....[Www]

[Busy Bee]

Hmm, which bit of the tax form asks for that then?  Not that we mind if they see our UK overdraft, I just didn't know we had to declare it.[Www]

[cooperlola]

When you do your first tax return here, there is a form you must fill in.  I can't remember its number off hand, but I posted it here somewhere.  S/D probably knows.....

[Benjamin]

[quote user="cooperlola"]When you do your first tax return here, there is a form you must fill in.  I can't remember its number off hand, but I posted it here somewhere.  S/D probably knows.....[/quote]

It's 3916 but when I asked for one when I collected the other forms to make my first tax declaration the person in the tax office looked at me as if I was demented and told me not to bother with 3916.

Of course if I was pulled up over it then it was my responsibility to have pushed the point and stood my ground until they gave me one. I didn't [;-)]

[Deimos]

[quote user="ErnieY"]

This is sure to get me ripped to pieces I know but if one doesn't tell the French taxman about something, say a pension tax free lump sum for instance, how will he find out about it otherwise. Do the UK notify the French authorities if someone on an E106 or E121 comes into such a sum I wonder ?

Standing by......................[blink] [blink] [blink]

[/quote]

When the exchange of information stated between the French and UK authorities I checked with my two UK banks to find out what info they were actually passing to the French authorities (actually I checked a year after it had started to let things "settle down").  The checked with their experts and said they only passed interest amounts paid to the French.  Nothing to do with transactions or balances.

Unrelated to the above, I believe that if you transfer money from UK to France, certainly the receiving French bank has to notify the transaction, source, etc. to the French authorities and the threshold for the transaction amount is surprisingly low.

However, I am no expert and am just repeating what I was told at the time I asked (things might change ?).

Ian

[woolybanana]

I think you are right Ian. It is all part of the anti-money laundering thing that has got way out of hand as the sums are so low as to be stupid. Thank one G Brown for agreeing to it.

[Will]

Not sure that G Brown had a lot of choice in the matter as it's a European thing. He certainly won't be able to stop the French authorities contacting their British colleagues should they feel the need to have your finances investigated. But they will only do that if there are serious grounds for suspicion, such as your billionaire lifestyle that belies the sub-RMI income you have actually been declaring in France.

[woolybanana]

I'm afraid G Brown did sign up for it though the Hermans were the front runners.

[Helen]

If your tax is paid in  the UK will a tax free lump sum turn up on your  P60 which you show to the French authorities as proof of income/tax paid. I can't find anywhere to put it in the  British tax return either.

 

 

[AnOther]

Hmmm. not quite the ripping I had anticipated, perhaps I touched on a particularly sensitive point with pension tax free lump sums ?

Coops, I'm not a natural cheater but I do believe in fair play. I have no issue whatsoever with paying my normal dues and taxes and will be asking for my forms in due course but when it comes time to take my 25% I will be definately be exploring my "options".

OK, we've all chosen to live in France and should live by the rules di da di da di da, perfectly true, I do feel very strongly however that it is iniquitous that the French taxman can grab a slice of what should, by all natural rights, be ringfenced money, and for what in return, pretty well zilch, I'll receive no more or no less than someone who hasn't got a pension pot to take 25% from.

All things being equal when I do reach retirement age my lifestyle will be demonstrably supportable on our UK state pensions, existing savings and investment income, and even without the 25%, will change little from what it is now.

If the banks are exchanging interest information with the French then to avoid that flagging up an unaccountable "blip" then I'd just take an equivalent out of my UK account and lodge it elsewhere !

Incidentally, as far as my UK bank(s) are concerned, I have simply moved from one UK address to another and am still taxed on my interest. I do all my banking online so unless I tell them otherwise exactly what is going to trigger them into disclosing any information about me to the French taxman ?

Helen, the money is not paid by ones employer but by the insurance company concerned so is nothing to do with one's P60.  I haven't done a UK tax return for a few years but even though there may be no specific question about it there is a section for "Any other income not elswhere declared" is there not ?  

[Helen]

[quote user="ErnieY"]

 

 

Helen, the money is not paid by ones employer but by the insurance company concerned so is nothing to do with one's P60.  I haven't done a UK tax return for a few years but even though there may be no specific question about it there is a section for "Any other income not elswhere declared" is there not ?  

[/quote]

Ernie, sorry, my potential problem is slightly different to yours as it is a lump sum from a government superan scheme. I will receive a p60  because I'll pay tax in the UK ( husband  uses his to show as as evidence of income when he completes his French form, ) . I'd forgotten that private pensions often have a lump sum as well.

[Ron Avery]

"I do all my banking online so unless I tell them otherwise exactly what is going to trigger them into disclosing any information about me to the French taxman ?"

Your ISP address Ernie if you do your on-line banking  from France.  The other day we tried to join a UK site for on-line orders for sending to our  nieces which would be sent to a UK address, we were told that we could not join as we were not in the UK, so how do they know that Ernie?

Also have you not noticed the rash of condition changes that have been coming from the banks recently, one of the most common changes being the freedom to share information about you to other authorities throughout the world.

As for the opinion that the limit on disclosure to the French authorities is ridiculously low, let me see, I want to launder £1m and not arouse suspicion,  so do I send it in in one go, 10 lots of £100k or 2000 lots of £500?  Well that's a hard one, perhaps Gordon Brown is not as daft as he looks.

[mint]

I shall have 2 tiny tax-free lump sums when I'm 60.  Trouble is, if there is a specific question on the form, then I WILL have to declare it as I can't for the life of me write down a lie.  After all, you can't claim you didn't hear properly or something like that, can you?

On the other hand, if I had a HUGE sum like ErnieY clearly does, I don't know what I'd do.  Clearly, the temptation to find a creative solution might just be irristible![:D]

[Sunday Driver]

Anyone like ErnieY with a huge sum would be foolish in the extreme to risk it by making a false tax declaration.

Better to employ a hot shot accountant to do it legally that risk a massive fine, confiscation of the cash, house, etc and a long prison sentence....[:(]

 

[AnOther]

HUGE - I wish, but then everything's relative isn't it.

When I read that the average UK pension pot is something like £40k then trying to mitigate the tax on 25% of that would hardly seem worth the effort.

However, when you go to another level and start talking about the 25% being perhaps £40k+, it takes on a completely different complexion !

Not saying that's me neccessarily you understand [:$]

[AnOther]

[quote user="Sunday Driver"]

Anyone like ErnieY with a huge sum would be foolish in the extreme to risk it by making a false tax declaration.

Better to employ a hot shot accountant to do it legally that risk a massive fine, confiscation of the cash, house, etc and a long prison sentence....[:(]

[/quote]You can be such a party pooper sometimes SD [:D][:D][:D]

If I understand the system correctly then as a French resident there is no "legal" way to avoid paying tax on it - or is there something you know which you'd care to share with us ?

Ultimately of course I could decide not to take the 25% in favour of a bigger annuity. I've a few years to go yet until it becomes imminent so nothing is urgent.

Actually the truth is I have no real idea of what the tax burden would be on the sum in the first place. Obviously it would depend on other income for the year but with planning I could effectively reduce that to a minimum so what would the tax rate be and what are the tax thresholds for a couple ?  

[suein56]

[quote user="ErnieY"]

This is sure to get me ripped to pieces I know but if one doesn't tell the French taxman about something, say a pension tax free lump sum for instance, how will he find out about it otherwise. Do the UK notify the French authorities if someone on an E106 or E121 comes into such a sum I wonder ?

[/quote]

The good news is that you shouldn't need to say anything to the French Tax authorities about your tax-free lump sum according to this which I received in my In box today.

The bad news is that France is looking to change the law on this as soon as they can.

Sue

[Pommier]

[quote user="ErnieY"]

Ultimately of course I could decide not to take the 25% in favour of a bigger annuity. I've a few years to go yet until it becomes imminent so nothing is urgent.

  

[/quote]

 

That's what I did (not that it was a huge sum), but it does give me a slightly bigger pension.

[AnOther]

SPG,

Very interesting indeed and ostensibly from what one would like to think is an unimpeachable source although I'd still like to see law backing it up or at least an official confirming statement from the French tax authorities as this seems at complete odds to most peoples understanding of the situation and the French premis that one is taxed on one's worldwide income. The article seems to say that once again the French have either been misinterpreting or misapplying the law.

So what is one supposed to do now then, not declare it because it is tax free ?

What happens then when your UK bank tells the French taxman that your bank interest has suddenly gone from £x to £xxx and he wants to know why.

Or perhaps we're supposed to declare it safe in the knowledge that the nice foncierre dealing with it knows and accepts that it's tax free and won't attempt to extract a kilo of flesh. Yeh right.............[:-))]

With the often inconsistent and sometimes chaotic attitudes of the various government offices in France, I can all too easily forsee a situation where, legitimately or not, one's local tax office issues a demand for tax on a pension lump sum after which it is up to you to not only persuade them that they are wrong but also dissuade them from enforcing payment !

[Tony F Dordogne]

And what makes you think that the French tax departments or local offices are any less chaotic than those elsewhere - there is currently a 6 to 8 month wait in the overseas branch to clarify people's joint tax forms, they're still working on those received before or in June and falling further behind according to the person I spoke to this week, local offices are not being informed of changes for people abroad and they're taxing people - me included - at the wrong rate.

Don't worry Ernie, if they overcharge you here you'll get it back - as I will when the UK gets their finger out!

[AnOther]

I have no illusions about the UK tax offices Tony but at least with them I can speak the lingo and argue a case which in France, at the moment anyway, I couldn't.

Plus they don't have the power to freeze or grab money from my bank account at a whim as I believe the French taxman has, or at least not before I'd had a chance to drain it before a situation deteriorated that far.....[:P]

[Tony F Dordogne]

Oh yes they do Ernie, the French can do exactly what the UK tax authorities can do.  And how many people actually have their bank accounts attacked in this way by the French authorities unless the authorities think they're up to rascalry, e & o e?

[AnOther]

Of course the UK taxman can freeze my account Tony but my point is, leaving out outside master criminals and drug barons etc. for the average Joe in dispute over a tax matter it is something which would perhaps be done closer to a last resort than a first and certainly would not happen without some considerable prior goings on.

I've read that in France money to settle such (alleged) debts can be siezed from one's A/C somewhat more readily.

[tegwini]

Recently attempted to get an income tax overpayment repaid.  Husband (who is a Chartered Accountant) had a right squabble with our tax office (Bristol) only to be told   'big delay'   & 'mail accumulating & they were at least 3 weeks behind in opening the post'.   They blamed being short-staffed,  we wondered just how chaotic things are there- and,  they refused to allow him to submit the claim on line ...

I rather think that the left hand doesn't know what the right is doing! - or is this Gordon & co hanging onto our money?

Regards

Tegwini