Adequate finances to live in France?

[Chris]

I read recently that in order to live in France after retirement I need to prove a minimum income so that I do not become a burden on the State: the figure quoted was c15K euros per year. Is this a figure for each of us - i.e. must a couple have 30K euros per year income in order to live in France? That sounds a lot for me! We would expect to have a joint income of c18K, plus owning a house without mortgage, plus a lump of capital behind us, plus E121s. Would that be accepted as sufficient? Advice please!

[woolybananasbrother]

I think the figure is something like the smic isn't it?

[Keelstow]

Where did you read it.?.......sounds more like living in the channel islands that a fellow EU state.

There is no such thing as a burden on the state in my view.  At the same time one does not want feel in the situation "be a mouse eating another man's cheese".

If I decide to live in France full time its my choice and if benifits are needed I have the EU laws to back up any unforseen circumstances.

The recent moves to block health cover are enough nonsense for one decade

[Boiling a frog]

[quote user="Keelstow"]

Where did you read it.?.......sounds more like living in the channel islands that a fellow EU state.

There is no such thing as a burden on the state in my view.  At the same time one does not want feel in the situation "be a mouse eating another man's cheese".

If I decide to live in France full time its my choice and if benifits are needed I have the EU laws to back up any unforseen circumstances.

The recent moves to block health cover are enough nonsense for one decade

[/quote]

 

Think you will find that France has EU laws to back them up,if you are inactive

Article 7

Right of residence for more than three months

1. All Union citizens shall have the right of residence on the

territory of another Member State for a period of longer than

three months if they:

(a) are workers or self-employed persons in the host Member

State; or

(b) have sufficient resources for themselves and their family

members not to become a burden on the social assistance

system of the host Member State during their period of

residence and have comprehensive sickness insurance cover

in the host Member State;

 

Going back to the OP the amount per month for a retired person is approx 628 euros per month

Montant des ressources 

Le caractère suffisant des ressources est apprécié en tenant compte de la situation personnelle de l'intéressé. 

Le montant exigé ne peut dépasser le montant du revenu minimum d'insertion (au 1er janvier 2008, 447,91 EUR  / mois pour une personne seule sans enfant) ou si la personne a plus de 65 ans, sauf exceptions, le montant de l'allocation de solidarité aux personnes âgées (au 1er janvier 2008, 628,10 EUR /mois maximum pour une personne seule).  

La charge pour le système d'assistance sociale français est évaluée en prenant notamment en compte : 

• le montant des prestations sociales non contributives (c'est à dire versées sans contrepartie de cotisations) qui ont été accordées à l'intéressé, 

• la durée de ses difficultés et de son séjour

Son montant et égal à la différence entre ces ressources et le plafond fixé, au 1er janvier 2007, à 7 635,53 € par an pour une personne seule et 13 374,16 € par an pour un couple. Le montant maximal qui peut être servi reste inchangé par rapport à l’ancien minimum vieillesse, puisqu’il est égal à la somme des anciennes prestations (allocation aux vieux travailleurs salariés (AVTS) et allocation supplémentaire vieillesse) (7 455,30 € par an pour une personne seule, 13 374,16 € par an pour un couple au 1er janvier 2007).

[Chris]

Thank you for these responses. I read the original comment in a (highly recommended) book called 'Retiring in France', but wasn't sure whether it was for a single person or a couple. My French isn't brilliant (learning Welsh a few years ago messed it up pretty thoroughly!) but the last post seems to suggest that we should be OK. Great! Thank you.

Chris

[Maria]

So if it is €13364.16 minimum income for a couple, what is the amount for a family?  Do they add an amount per child? 

[Maria]

 My apologies - I found the information here: http://www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/1048537/ShowPost.aspx 

[Keelstow]

Seems a bit odd that an outsider needs to prove they have funds available to them way above the disposable income of a significant number of the locals.? who fixes these levels?

[Sunday Driver]

The government fixes them, who else?

The regulations state that you may not be a burden on the state social security system, so the amount is fixed at a level that is over the qualifying threshold for benefits.

 

 

[Keelstow]

looks like any means testing only applies to the first 5 yr anyway

"Any EU citizen who has been resident in France for five or more continuous years has the right to permanent residence and a residence permit and does not need to provide proof of income or employment. "

http://normandy.angloinfo.com/countries/france/residency.asp

[Maria]

[quote user="Keelstow"]Seems a bit odd that an outsider needs to prove they have funds available to them way above the disposable income of a significant number of the locals.? who fixes these levels?[/quote]It's not way above the disposable income of the locals since it's the income support level, isn't it, below which the locals wouldn't have to live as they could then claim RMI?  Isn't the amount required about the same as a minimum wage in France, if you are a couple with 4 children?

[Maria]

Or rather, the minimum wage BEFORE tax, according to this thread http://www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/1168196/ShowPost.aspx

or is the amount of RMI (that you need to have the equivalent of in income) also taxable - I mean is the amount specified the gross amount rather than the amount of cash you actually need in the bank each month?

[Ron Avery]

"It looks like any means testing only applies to the first 5 years anyway.........."  Oh yes good old AI, always on the ball[Www]

Don't you belive it, quite a few brits in SE France  have had a visit from CPAM officials to see how they can be existing on their declared below SMIC  income.  If the true income has not been declared, the penalties for tax evasion etc can be very severe after five years of fiddling..

 

 

[Maria]

I don't think anyone was suggesting anything about not declaring income, Ron - the suggestion as I understood it was that you didn't need to prove that you were above the minimum income required to be inactif in France once you had lived in France for five years and were classed as officially resident.  Is this not correct?

[cooperlola]

Yes, Charentaise, that is correct, but ONLY if you have proved said minimum income (and health cover) during those five years and lived here legally (ie declared your income to the tax office etc). 

Hence, Ron, I think we need to leave the cheats to be picked up on by the local authorities.  If such things make one angry, one can always report them, if one feels this strongly.  I think your point is right though - don't expect so much leeway to be given by the authorities here when investigating these things in the future.  I believe it was Clair who posted something a few weeks ago to suggest that ALL people who appeared to be living on incomes which belied their lifestyle (regardless of country of origin) would be subject to more stringeant checks in future.  But I guess if you're the kind of person who tries to milk the system, then you're pretty well aware already that one day you might get caught out. In general my own feeling is that people reep what they sow.  We give the best advice we can, based on our own experiences, and leave it up to the conscience of the questioner as to whether they wish to do things the legal way or not.

[Clair]

Did someone mention my name?

This is the thread in question: http://www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/1127702/ShowPost.aspx

[cooperlola]

Thanks Clair, sorry if I burnt your ears!

[Maria]

[quote user="cooperlola"]

Yes, Charentaise, that is correct, but ONLY

if you have proved said minimum income (and health cover) during those

five years and lived here legally (ie declared your income to the tax

office etc). 

Hence, Ron, I think we need to leave the cheats to be picked up on

by the local authorities.  If such things make one angry, one can

always report them, if one feels this strongly.  I think your point is

right though - don't expect so much leeway to be given by the

authorities here when investigating these things in the future.  I

believe it was Clair who posted something a few weeks ago to suggest

that ALL people who appeared to be living on incomes which belied their

lifestyle (regardless of country of origin) would be subject to more

stringeant checks in future.  But I guess if you're the kind of person

who tries to milk the system, then you're pretty well aware already

that one day you might get caught out. In general my own feeling is

that people reep what they sow.  We give the best advice we can, based

on our own experiences, and leave it up to the conscience of the

questioner as to whether they wish to do things the legal way or not.

[/quote]

Who was discussing anything other than proving and legally declaring income?  How did asking questions about what are considered 'adequate finances' to live in France, under the new rules, suddenly turn into a discussion about 'cheats'?  This thread is a discussion of how one can legally move to France - not cheat the system in any way, or hide.   Keelstow simply said that the requirement to prove that you had adequate income to support yourself in order to live in France in the first place ended after you became officially resident after five years - which is true.  There was no mention of lying about income or hiding income that one might have. 

The question I can foresee that this will beg is whether the type of income and its longevity will come under investigation.  For instance, some types of income might only last for a period slightly longer than the five years, meaning that the person concerned may then go under the threshold for the minimum income - will income be considered to this extent or do they only investigate whether you have the correct income today or for the next five years?

People do need answers to these questions and it would be preferable if they could ask them and be answered without the sudden implication that they might be somehow trying to cheat the system!

[cooperlola]

Sorry, Charentaise, it was probably not a good idea to try to respond to both you and Ron at the same time.

Yes, you are correct (which I think I said).  Once you have lived here within the law for 5 years, then you are treated in the same way as a French citizen in the same position.  Thus, should your income drop below the minimums required, then you would be entitled to the same support as any French national.

As said above, I think that Ron's point is best left for the powers that be to deal with.

[Keelstow]

"Le montant exigé ne peut dépasser le montant du revenu minimum d'insertion (au 1er janvier 2008, 447,91 EUR  / mois pour une personne seule sans enfant) ou si la personne a plus de 65 ans, sauf exceptions, le montant de l'allocation de solidarité aux personnes âgées (au 1er janvier 2008, 628,10 EUR /mois maximum pour une personne seule).  "

babelfish  translation

"The amount required cannot exceed the amount of the minimum income of insertion (at January 1, 2008, 447,91 Euro/month for a person alone without child) or if the person has more than 65 years, except exceptions, the amount of the allowance of solidarity to the old people (at January 1, 2008, 628,10 Euro /mois maximum for a person alone)."

looks like amouts are the maximum the authorities  can insist you have at your disposal

seems fairly cool and fair with lower amounts negotiable

[Ron Avery]

[quote user="cooperlola"]

Sorry, Charentaise, it was probably not a good idea to try to respond to both you and Ron at the same time.

Yes, you are correct (which I think I said).  Once you have lived here within the law for 5 years, then you are treated in the same way as a French citizen in the same position.  Thus, should your income drop below the minimums required, then you would be entitled to the same support as any French national.

As said above, I think that Ron's point is best left for the powers that be to deal with.

[/quote]

My point was not about cheats at all, it was a response to the suggestion that after five years you do not have to prove that you are not a burden on the state.  As anecdotal evidence and Clair's post shows that is not necessarily the case.

[cooperlola]

At the risk of going round it circles.  Surely, Ron, after five years, if you lose your income for any reason (say, for instance, you are widowed and your income source from your o/h dries up) and you legitimately fall below the level where you can begin to claim benefits, then you may do so?  To my mind, Clair's post only refers to those whose income is belied by their lifestyle (possibly because they are doing  sly work on the black - hence the "cheat" reference)?  My point being that those who are genuinely in need, are entitled to state support, once the five years is up.  Before then, the minimum income level is a requirement.  But obviously, I stand to be corrected.

[Maria]

[quote user="Ron Avery"][quote user="cooperlola"]

Sorry, Charentaise, it was probably not a good idea to try to respond to both you and Ron at the same time.

Yes, you are correct (which I think I said).  Once you have lived here within the law for 5 years, then you are treated in the same way as a French citizen in the same position.  Thus, should your income drop below the minimums required, then you would be entitled to the same support as any French national.

As said above, I think that Ron's point is best left for the powers that be to deal with.

[/quote]

My point was not about cheats at all, it was a response to the suggestion that after five years you do not have to prove that you are not a burden on the state.  As anecdotal evidence and Clair's post shows that is not necessarily the case.

[/quote]

You don't have to prove it anymore to be resident because you'll be officially resident and will be treated just as any other French resident is.  Your comment:

"Don't you belive it, quite a few brits in SE France  have had a visit

from CPAM officials to see how they can be existing on their declared

below SMIC  income.  If the true income has not been declared, the

penalties for tax evasion etc can be very severe after five years of

fiddling.."

was totally irrelevant to this thread and seems to simply be an attempt to provoke arguement rather than answer genuine questions.

[Maria]

[quote user="cooperlola"]At the risk of going round it circles.  Surely, Ron, after five years, if you lose your income for any reason (say, for instance, you are widowed and your income source from your o/h dries up) and you legitimately fall below the level where you can begin to claim benefits, then you may do so?  To my mind, Clair's post only refers to those whose income is belied by their lifestyle (possibly because they are doing  sly work on the black - hence the "cheat" reference)?  My point being that those who are genuinely in need, are entitled to state support, once the five years is up.  Before then, the minimum income level is a requirement.  But obviously, I stand to be corrected.[/quote]

Hear, hear.  This is relevant comment and the way I see it too, but I still wonder how far the checks will go - ie will the income 'proved' be checked in detail to make sure it will still be available in 5 or more years time? 

[cooperlola]

[quote user="Charentaise"][quote user="cooperlola"]At the risk of going round it circles.  Surely, Ron, after five years, if you lose your income for any reason (say, for instance, you are widowed and your income source from your o/h dries up) and you legitimately fall below the level where you can begin to claim benefits, then you may do so?  To my mind, Clair's post only refers to those whose income is belied by their lifestyle (possibly because they are doing  sly work on the black - hence the "cheat" reference)?  My point being that those who are genuinely in need, are entitled to state support, once the five years is up.  Before then, the minimum income level is a requirement.  But obviously, I stand to be corrected.[/quote]
Hear, hear.  This is relevant comment and the way I see it too, but I still wonder how far the checks will go - ie will the income 'proved' be checked in detail to make sure it will still be available in 5 or more years time? 


[/quote]It would be interesting to hear from somebody who's been here since the days when it was previously necessary for EU citizens to prove this. What went on then, exactly?  To my mind, if you have a pension then it's easily prove-able.  However, if you are living on, say, interest from capital/shares or whatever, how does that work?  Interest goes up and down with the stock market; capital dwindles as you spend it etc. Also, the value of the Euro vs £ goes up and down (as we well know!) so whereas a stirling income may well get you above the minimum at some times, at others the exchange rate may drop one below it.