Maria

[quote user="Rabbie"]I assume the "under the table" payments are a way of evading tax on the sale.[/quote]The seller would pay less capital gains tax on a lower amount and the buyer would pay less notaire's fees but if the buyer wanted to sell the property honestly later, then they would be liable for more capital gains if it wasn't their main home.  I've heard of the maire preempting in such a case too.  I also heard of someone selling cheaply to a family member and then the maire preempted.  I thought I may have heard urban legends invented to encourage people to behave but maybe not, since Pommier has heard of it too!

I passed through 24450 Firbeix on the N21 and saw a nice little house for sale.  I decided to try and find it on the internet when I got home.  I found it but also found lots of other houses advertised for sale in what seems to be only a small village.  The proportion of houses for sale seems huge.  So does anybody know whether there is something wrong with this place or if something is happening there to suddenly make everyone put their houses on the market?

I'm not sure where these prices come from as we are buying agricultural land for €0.36 per square metre, including fees, and understand that this is actually a bit expensive - but that is in the Charente and not attached to our house.  It's the latter fact that makes a huge difference, wherever you are.

    Thanks for that - I'll try explaining that now you've said what it's called, since when we told them we thought we could claim the difference between the two, they just looked blank and then negative!

    I guess not then!

[quote user="Suzanne32"].......although it was the UK who should pay they would pay us the ' difference' between what we would receive in the UK and the amount here. A step in the right direction I guess. Has anyone else heard of this happening? [/quote]I remember reading lots about claiming this difference or 'top up' between what the UK pays and what France would pay but now can't find anything about it.  Does anybody know exactly what it is called or how one claims it?

    Benjamin - the lady at the tax office, as I thought I had explained, is just that - the lady at the tax office, our head office for impots, to which we had to go to submit a late tax return.  She took the form from us and entered into their computer, after telling us where to put stuff in the first place. Bob - there is also a distinction between a SIP and a SAP and the latter is where the injuries which caused the medical discharge where attributable to military service and this is what makes the SAP tax exempt, just like the war pension.  A SIP is not tax exempt. Alanb - this is what I thought, so I guess we should go along to the tax office and explain that two parts of what we declared should not have been and the IB should be in a different box.  Trouble is, I'm not clear on which box as some seem to think it should be in one of the boxes where French income is declared (A something) and others think it should still be declared as foreign income which is taxable in France.  I wonder how the tax office will handle things being changed.  Anyone else had to do this?

[quote user="Bob T"]First of all a military pension is not UK tax exempt, you may not pay UK tax if it is below your personal allowance though. The war pension is tax exempt in the UK and you will not pay UK tax on that at all. Both must be declared on your French tax return as they are income. I should know as I also have a military and a war pension and I have been declaring mine for the past 3 years. Hope this helps. [/quote]I beg to differ, Bob - a military pension is UK tax exempt if it is a SAP - service attributable pension, granted because of injuries which are deemed attributable to your military service (which could be true of yours since you have a war pension).  If your military pension is classed as 'attributable' and you are paying UK tax then you are doing so incorrectly and should claim it back.  Under article 19 of the double taxation treaty, such pensions are exempt in France if they are exempt in the UK but what is not clear is whether they should be declared under section VII of form 2047.  This section seems to deal with taxable income which is taxed by another government and therefore maybe should exclude income which is tax exempt.  This is what I am unclear about.   The lady at the tax office advised us to put  everything in box VII - but I am unsure of the correctness of this, especially for the incapacity benefit, which is taxable in the UK (I think) but which this lady said is not taxable in France.  It's not a matter of what tax we will pay as it has been classed as non taxable in France - but the RFR may be wrong as it includes all of this income and we're not sure what else this RFR might be used for.  We'd like to get it right this time (if we can hopefully change it if it is wrong) otherwise it will look odd next year if we don't declare something we shouldn't have declared this last time, if you see what I mean......

We were told that we should make a tax declaration in France despite (as we thought) all of our income being tax exempt in both the UK and France.  We did so.  Our income consists of: 1) A tax exempt military disability pension 2) A tax exempt war pension 3) Long term incapacity benefit paid by the UK (which we were also informed was exempt) and though we were told and it seemed reasonable that none of the above should be declared on our tax return, when we went to the tax office we were told to declare this in secion VII of form 2047 and box TI of form 2042 on the tax form.  This means the above income is used to ascertain our RFR.  Reading various postings on this forum it seems we may have been incorrectly advised at the tax office, since the RFR is supposed to reflect taxable income.  It seems none of the income should have been declared at all - or maybe just the incapacity benefit, which is taxable in the uk? We were also told to enter our income for the whole of 2007, even though we didn't arrive in France until May 2007, and now wonder if this is also incorrect, after reading the forum postings. Having already submitted the tax return I'm wondering if it was correct and if it wasn't, is it possible to/is it necessary to/is there any benefit in trying to correct it? Hopefully someone can help as my  mind is totally boggled by all the stuff I've read on here!

Or she might be worried about fire spreading - a neighbour of ours told us we're only allowed fires between October and February due to the risk of a forest fire.

I remember stuff in the papers about people getting into trouble for doing this in the Limousin without being properly registered as a business but I don't know whether this had to be as a 'fishing business' in particular or just any business with proper insurance rather than just renting out cabins/lakes on the quiet. 

Judie I know that is the rule in the UK but is there a similar rule in France?  And if so, will they apply the rule when it's a UK and not a French property?  (ie under the new treaty, when it comes in, since it seems if the UK rules don't get you the French rules will, and vice versa!)

No, because the key is your email id and not your displayed user name (which can be changed).  So if you know the email id the user registered with then you can search on that.  Not ideal (and probably was a mistake) but this is to do with the history of the conversion from the old software (on which you could search on user id).

[quote user="mooky"]There have been problems with planning permission for this house.[/quote]Interesting though, that the Trott family got permission to build an earthship in France after giving up on getting the permission in England! http://web.mac.com/kevantrott/iWeb/Site/Welcome.html 

I think whether the mairie has a problem with a caravan on the land may depend on whether they are aware of it and/or how unsightly it looks as well as whether anyone else complains!  I believe there are rules about this and you're not allowed to just move a caravan onto land - isn't the limit 3 months? Having said that, we own some land and have had a caravan on it for about 9 months.  There was an old caravan on the land when we bought it which had been there for five years and which is derelict and still there and will be until we figure out where we're supposed to dispose of it!  Nobody has said anything to us about either caravan (including during the sale process) so far..... We heard it was common for permission to instal a fosse septique to run out but looking at our purchase papers, we seem to have a never ending permission for one.  We're currently trying to figure out whether one is really necessary or if we can get away with other methods...... If you're on your own and want to live in a low impact way then might you be able to manage a building within the 20 square metre rule?  Some land can't be build upon at all but a lot of land which can't have a larger building on it can still have a building (or more than one depending on the size of the land) up to 20 square metres and 4 metres high on it without needing permission (just notification to the mairie that you're building it) but I'm not sure whether you're allowed to live in such a building full time.

    This thread any good? http://www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/575611/ShowPost.aspx

 Did you ever find out whether these are allowed in France and if so, what would be still considered necessary to process the grey water??

[quote user="cooperlola"]Charentaise, it is interesting to see how Poppy, Will and Will's mate were all treated in quite different ways as regards proof of income, isn't it?  I can see a big range of interpretations coming up in the future on this one - as there seems to have been in the past.[/quote]I know - nightmare scenario! I think this bit of my post may have got lost as I edited it whilst artsole was replying: (and yes - every department might decide on these issues separately!) My query is what types of income would be accepted.  A brief look around recent threads shows that there are a few types of income that perhaps would be excluded under the 5 year rule because they couldn't be guaranteed to continue for that period and beyond.  Examples are disability/incapacity related income from the UK (reviewed every two years for government benefits and at varying times for private benefits); child benefit and tax credits from the UK which are attached to invalidity benefit and therefore also could be lost within two years (ie less than the five years) or at any time in the future after a review; talking of children - what about child support payments, which may end within the five years or shortly after, depending upon the age of the child?  See what I mean - would all of these types of  ' possibly temporary' income be excluded by the authorities and not be allowed to contribute to the total income taken into account?  As for French benefits that can't be claimed; what about French top up child benefit payments - are these to cease too?  What about that grant that people with kids get at the start of the school year - is that to be stopped too?  If not (if they're not means tested or if you don't have to wait until officially resident after 5 yrs to claim them) do they get included in the total income you would have if you lived in France?

[quote user="Ron Avery"]Charentaise wrote " Your comment: "Don't you believe it, quite a few brits in SE France  etc .. was totally irrelevant to this thread............ " Perhaps you can explain how my response to a post by Keelstow stating that "one cannot be means tested after 5 years" can be irrelevant in a thread called "Adequate finances to live in France" when my post stated that checks on income of residents are carried out by CPAM officials and if people are found to understating it they are prosecuted? [/quote]because keelstow wasn't talking about understating income - nobody was!  We were talking about stating true income and how much it needed to be to be allowed to stay in France!  Keelstow was saying you wouldn't need to prove you were earning enough after five years - not suggesting that anyone would turn around at that point and cheat and start understating their income so that they could become a fraudulent burden on the state!  My query is what types of income would be accepted.  A brief look around recent threads shows that there are a few types of income that perhaps would be excluded under the 5 year rule because they couldn't be guaranteed to continue for that period and beyond.  Examples are disability/incapacity related income from the UK (reviewed every two years for government benefits and at varying times for private benefits); child benefit and tax credits from the UK which are attached to invalidity benefit and therefore also could be lost within two years (ie less than the five years) or at any time in the future after a review; talking of children - what about child support payments, which may end within the five years or shortly after, depending upon the age of the child?  See what I mean - would all of these types of  ' possibly temporary' income be excluded by the authorities and not be allowed to contribute to the total income taken into account?  As for French benefits that can't be claimed; what about French top up child benefit payments - are these to cease too?  What about that grant that people with kids get at the start of the school year - is that to be stopped too?  If not (if they're not means tested or if you don't have to wait until officially resident after 5 yrs to claim them) do they get included in the total income you would have if you lived in France?

[quote user="cooperlola"]At the risk of going round it circles.  Surely, Ron, after five years, if you lose your income for any reason (say, for instance, you are widowed and your income source from your o/h dries up) and you legitimately fall below the level where you can begin to claim benefits, then you may do so?  To my mind, Clair's post only refers to those whose income is belied by their lifestyle (possibly because they are doing  sly work on the black - hence the "cheat" reference)?  My point being that those who are genuinely in need, are entitled to state support, once the five years is up.  Before then, the minimum income level is a requirement.  But obviously, I stand to be corrected.[/quote] Hear, hear.  This is relevant comment and the way I see it too, but I still wonder how far the checks will go - ie will the income 'proved' be checked in detail to make sure it will still be available in 5 or more years time? 

[quote user="Ron Avery"][quote user="cooperlola"] Sorry, Charentaise, it was probably not a good idea to try to respond to both you and Ron at the same time. Yes, you are correct (which I think I said).  Once you have lived here within the law for 5 years, then you are treated in the same way as a French citizen in the same position.  Thus, should your income drop below the minimums required, then you would be entitled to the same support as any French national. As said above, I think that Ron's point is best left for the powers that be to deal with. [/quote] My point was not about cheats at all, it was a response to the suggestion that after five years you do not have to prove that you are not a burden on the state.  As anecdotal evidence and Clair's post shows that is not necessarily the case. [/quote] You don't have to prove it anymore to be resident because you'll be officially resident and will be treated just as any other French resident is.  Your comment: "Don't you belive it, quite a few brits in SE France  have had a visit from CPAM officials to see how they can be existing on their declared below SMIC  income.  If the true income has not been declared, the penalties for tax evasion etc can be very severe after five years of fiddling.." was totally irrelevant to this thread and seems to simply be an attempt to provoke arguement rather than answer genuine questions.

lol I spent practically all day yesterday following the links from this site and reading about this stuff and I can safely tell you that they don't expect a mains water, drainage or electricity connection - otherwise it wouldn't be an eco-house! 

[quote user="cooperlola"]Yes, Charentaise, that is correct, but ONLY if you have proved said minimum income (and health cover) during those five years and lived here legally (ie declared your income to the tax office etc).  Hence, Ron, I think we need to leave the cheats to be picked up on by the local authorities.  If such things make one angry, one can always report them, if one feels this strongly.  I think your point is right though - don't expect so much leeway to be given by the authorities here when investigating these things in the future.  I believe it was Clair who posted something a few weeks ago to suggest that ALL people who appeared to be living on incomes which belied their lifestyle (regardless of country of origin) would be subject to more stringeant checks in future.  But I guess if you're the kind of person who tries to milk the system, then you're pretty well aware already that one day you might get caught out. In general my own feeling is that people reep what they sow.  We give the best advice we can, based on our own experiences, and leave it up to the conscience of the questioner as to whether they wish to do things the legal way or not. [/quote]Who was discussing anything other than proving and legally declaring income?  How did asking questions about what are considered 'adequate finances' to live in France, under the new rules, suddenly turn into a discussion about 'cheats'?  This thread is a discussion of how one can legally move to France - not cheat the system in any way, or hide.   Keelstow simply said that the requirement to prove that you had adequate income to support yourself in order to live in France in the first place ended after you became officially resident after five years - which is true.  There was no mention of lying about income or hiding income that one might have.  The question I can foresee that this will beg is whether the type of income and its longevity will come under investigation.  For instance, some types of income might only last for a period slightly longer than the five years, meaning that the person concerned may then go under the threshold for the minimum income - will income be considered to this extent or do they only investigate whether you have the correct income today or for the next five years? People do need answers to these questions and it would be preferable if they could ask them and be answered without the sudden implication that they might be somehow trying to cheat the system!

I don't think anyone was suggesting anything about not declaring income, Ron - the suggestion as I understood it was that you didn't need to prove that you were above the minimum income required to be inactif in France once you had lived in France for five years and were classed as officially resident.  Is this not correct?

 Yes - but I wonder if there would be problems in France, if you put one on your own land, with only 20 sq metres 'protruding'?