A dreaded tax question

[Bugsy]

Having moved my tax liability to france in April last year and therefore having pension income split between uk taxable (4 months) and french taxable (8 months).

How should this be correctly shown on my 2007 return ? (simple language appreciated [:)])

Thanks

Gary.

[Sunday Driver]

If you check out the new [url=http://www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/1196188/ShowPost.aspx]Tax FAQ[/url], you'll find precise instructions on how to fill in the actual forms.

 

[Bugsy]

Sorry SD, I know how to generally fill in the forms, it was just how to show a split mid-year. I have yet to find an answer for that specific.

Gary.

[cooperlola]

If the bit that's taxable in the UK is some kind of government pension, then bung the amount that 's taxable in the UK in box TI and the amount that's taxable here in box TL.  If you were in the UK when you earned the amount which is taxable in the UK, then just declare the French taxable amount in box TL.  The dates are not relevant, as you are taxed on a whole year - it's not split into months.

S/D will be back if that's wrong![:D]

[dr orloff]

In France you declare earnings for the eight months for which you were resident.  In the UK I think split year treatment (ie: again a pro-rata) is available for that income - check the notes the non-residents section of the self-assessment - available online or via your local tax office.

[Ron Avery]

[quote user="Bugbear"]

Having moved my tax liability to france in April last year and therefore having pension income split between uk taxable (4 months) and french taxable (8 months).

How should this be correctly shown on my 2007 return ? (simple language appreciated [:)])

Thanks

Gary.

[/quote]

I don't understand this "I moved my tax liability to France in April last year". 

So you moved to France in April 2007 then?  If so you simply record your income in France from that date.

However, if you lived here before that date your tax liability for the whole year was in France, there is no choice about where you pay tax, if you take up residency you pay tax here from the day you arrive,  unless of course your income is UK government related and then its is taxed in the UK, but you knew that didn't you?

If you did move to France before April 2007, you simply record the whole year's income and reclaim any tax incorrectly paid in the UK, if not you risk paying tax in both countries.

[Benjamin]

[quote user="Bugbear"]

Sorry SD, I know how to generally fill in the forms, it was just how to show a split mid-year. I have yet to find an answer for that specific.

Gary.

[/quote]

It's in the answer to the first question on the FAQ:

French taxes are due each year on income earned in the preceding

tax year (Jan-Dec) so for your first declaration, it's income from the

date of your arrival to 31 December.

OK? [:D]

[Sunday Driver]

Blimey, I thought this was a simple one......[;-)]

 

 

[Bugsy]

[quote user="Benjamin"][quote user="Bugbear"]

Sorry SD, I know how to generally fill in the forms, it was just how to show a split mid-year. I have yet to find an answer for that specific.

Gary.

[/quote]


It's in the answer to the first question on the FAQ:

French taxes are due each year on income earned in the preceding tax year (Jan-Dec) so for your first declaration, it's income from the date of your arrival to 31 December.

OK? [:D]



[/quote]

Sorry B, but it's not. I've lived here over five years now and understand how to fill in the form normally. In 2007 I've got 4 months income (taxed in the UK) and 8 months to be taxed in france. What I don't know is how you can or should show that on the return form (there is only one box remember.

[Ron Avery]

 

Its quite simple

 5.2 If you are not resident in the UK, we will generally tax you on any UK pensions** or on earnings from employment the duties of which are carried on in this country. Where your duties are carried on partly in the UK and partly abroad, an allocation, based on days worked in the UK and days worked abroad, will normally be made to ascertain the earnings for duties carried on in this country which are liable for UK tax. We will not tax you on earnings from an employment which is carried on wholly abroad (see paragraph 5.5). See paragraph 5.4 for the position if you become resident in the UK part way through a tax year and 5.9 regarding overseas earnings taxable on the remittance basis. **In some cases you may make a claim under a double taxation agreement for exemption from UK tax on your UK pension, or on earnings arising in this country

So you fill in your UK taxed income in TI as Coops said the amount that's taxable here in box TL.  If its all already taxed in the UK then it all goes in TI.

** If your pension is normally paid gross and declared in France, it will still be exempt from UK tax. 

If you will  have any queries about this, ring the tax office for non residents at Bootle.0845 300 3939

[Bugsy]

Confused, moi ?

I have lived totally in france for over five years.

We have completed tax returns for five years.

Until my NHS pension kicked in in 2006 we had no income (living on savings).

The return for 2006 was wholly income paid and taxed in the UK.

I moved my tax burden into france early in 2007 (before anyone comments there is no timescale on when you do this).

I then for the 2007 return have the situation on which I asked the original question.

I'll do what Coops suggested and split it into the TL & Tl boxes.

Thank you to all contributors.

Gary...............................................expert en matière d'impôts....[Www]

 

[Ron Avery]

Well Monsieur l'Expert, if the information you have now given is correct, you really are confused and need to sort out your tax for 2006 first.

For starters, as your mate SD has pointed out to the surprise of many, including me, NHS pensions are not government pensions that have to be taxed in the UK. The fact it was paid in the Uk does not matter.  They are in fact no different to any other private pension that is taxable in France. 

Therefore, you should have paid tax on that pension from day 1 in France along with the tax on interest that you gained from your savings plus sociale charges on the unearned income that you no doubt have already declared and paid. 

Unless you have completed a double tax indenmity form from the date you moved to France, you run a real risk of being taxed again on that income in France with no guarantee of being able to reclaim it back from the UK. 

Your tax liability in France began the day you moved to France, that is the timescale, you have no say or choice in the matter, whoever told you differently was misinformed.  That is not my view, its that of HMRC and repeated in the FAQs.   Interested to know who told you otherwise.

As you have been paying tax in error in the UK on a NHS pension you need to set about getting that tax back so you can correctly declare it and pay it in France, you know we need it[:D].  The way to do it is to get the FD 5 tax form for wehich there is a link in the FAQs which you should have completed on moving to France, and hand that in together with your amended 2006 and correctly completed 2007 tax return.

[Bugsy]

Lighten up Ron, [:)] and please read what I actually said.

Repeating myself for your benefit. [Www]

I have completed five years of tax returns in france.

I declared my NHS pension fully in france as soon as it kicked in. (this included a double tax indenmity form). In 2006 it was declared as tax paid in the UK. 2007 is the first year that I receive my pension in france gross and because of the delay from the UK tax office, this didn't happen until May of that year. That resulted in a tax rebate from the UK which will, of course, be declared in my 2007 return.

I have no idea where you think that I ever thought anything other than the fact that you pay tax from day one, certainly not from me !!

I posted a question only to enquire how to correctly show the income (pension) in the year that I stopped paying UK tax.

Coops has answered that I think.

Sorry for any confusion, have a nice day............................

Gary.

 

 

 

[Ron Avery]

How can anybody have got confused by your clear and concise postings[8-)]

Quote Gary " I have no idea where you think that I ever thought anything other than the fact that you pay tax from day one, certainly not from me !!

so which Gary wrote  "Having moved my tax liability to France in April last year"  so that is what 3 years after you moved to France????

[Bugsy]

You are, of course, totally correct Ron. I'm just stupid and you are so very intelligent.

I'm really sorry that I caused you so much pain on this.

I really must try and do better..............[:(]

 

[Sunday Driver]

[quote user="Bugbear"]

I declared my NHS pension fully in france as soon as it kicked in. (this included a double tax indenmity form). In 2006 it was declared as tax paid in the UK.

It should have been declared as tax payable in France, but never mind....[;-)]

2007 is the first year that I receive my pension in france gross and because of the delay from the UK tax office, this didn't happen until May of that year. That resulted in a tax rebate from the UK which will, of course, be declared in my 2007 return.

If you've received your pension gross from May onwards and a tax rebate for the period January to April, then all of your 2007 pension has been paid gross and should be declared as a total for the year, as normal.  There's no 'split year' scenario here.

Good news is, if your joint gross income is less than around 19,500€ you won't actually pay any French tax at all......

 

[/quote]

 

[magaret]

After all the above

                         Can somebody tell me the rate to use for the impot forms this year.

[Ron Avery]

[quote user="magaret"]

After all the above, can somebody tell me the rate to use for the impot forms this year........... ( please)

[/quote]

http://www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/1209940/ShowPost.aspx

[Bugsy]

Thanks SD,

Magaret look here

[Benjamin]

Bugbear

This must rate as the most disingenuous bit of posting from an experienced poster that I have seen in a long time.

[suein56]

[quote user="magaret"]

                         Can somebody tell me the rate to use for the impot forms this year. [/quote]

As far as I know there has not been a French declaration about the official rate for 2007 yet this year.

Sue

[magaret]

[quote user="spg"][quote user="magaret"]

                         Can somebody tell me the rate to use for the impot forms this year. [/quote]

As far as I know there has not been a French declaration about the official rate for 2007 yet this year.

Sue

[/quote]

 

Thanking you

             Will have to keep my eyes open.

[Sunday Driver]

You can keep your eyes open as long as you like - there is no such thing as the official rate. 

Follow the link that Ron kindly posted for you - it takes you to a current thread where the matter of rates is being discussed. 

 

[magaret]

[quote user="Sunday Driver"]

You can keep your eyes open as long as you like - there is no such thing as the official rate. 

Follow the link that Ron kindly posted for you - it takes you to a current thread where the matter of rates is being discussed. 

 

[/quote]

 

Chessfou post says different

 Or am i reading it wrong?

[Bugsy]

[quote user="Benjamin"]Bugbear

This must rate as the most disingenuous bit of posting from an experienced poster that I have seen in a long time.

[/quote]

Why thank you Benjamin......................I do try........................[:)]