Health Insurance

[French Frank]

Is it the case that when we move to France permenantly, we have to have Health Insurance for the first five years only?

What happens after the first five year period?

Can anyone advise how much Health Care insurance would be for a couple of 50 year olds.

Thanks

[cooperlola]

After 5 years, you can join CMU and thus contribute towards it and  enjoy the same benefits as a French person.

I had a quick look at one policy and for bear minimum hospital cover the  cost was 1300€ per person.  A full policy (which in theory at least closest to the one the law requires) was 2,800€.

Nobody yet knows whether you'll have to prove that you had the full spec' policy to qualify for CMU at the end of the five years as it's yet to be tested.  It's up to you to weigh the pros and cons.  There is a full explanation of all this, plus lists of insurance companies, on our website (non  commercial, voluntary, not attached to any company, btw).

[parsnips]

[quote user="French Frank"]

Is it the case that when we move to France permenantly, we have to have Health Insurance for the first five years only?

What happens after the first five year period?

Can anyone advise how much Health Care insurance would be for a couple of 50 year olds.

Thanks

[/quote]

Hi,

     Under the revised residency rules (2007) european citizens who have been LEGALLY resident in France for 5years are in theory entitled to ask for permanent residence, the main interest of this for the "early-retired" is that it would open access to the CMU.  To be legally resident you have to have full health cover and a certain minimum income (at present 681.95€ per month for a couple--enough  so as not to be "a charge on the french state"). When demanding their long-stay carte de sejour after 5 yrs, they must present documentary evidence of resources and health cover. As this only dates from 2007 , there may not be much practical evidence about how it works in practice; perhaps somebody with personal experience will inform us?

Health Insurance; google "exclusive health" for an idea of costs then use google to compare.

[Judie]

But isn't there cover via an E form for the first up to 2 years?

[cooperlola]

[quote user="Judie"]But isn't there cover via an E form for the first up to 2 years?
[/quote]It's not automatic and the maximum is 30 months or 18 for the self employed, but normally, yes E106 cover is available.  The duration depends upon the month of your move and the date of your leaving your final job - ie your last employee's NI contribution.

[French Frank]

Thanks a lot. Your website is also very informative.

Am I right in assuming the following:-

the first two years resident in France can be covered by a E106 (what do I need to do in years 3-5)

After 5 years residency I can join the CMU. Does this mean I take out some kind of top-up insurance depending what level of cover I want?

Does the government have a minimum amount of cover in mind?

 

[Sunday Driver]

[quote user="French Frank"]

Thanks a lot. Your website is also very informative.

Am I right in assuming the following:-

the first two years resident in France can be covered by a E106 (what do I need to do in years 3-5)

For years 3-5 you will need to purchase private health insurance cover.

After 5 years residency I can join the CMU. Does this mean I take out some kind of top-up insurance depending what level of cover I want?

CMU will give you state cover up to around 70% of your treatment costs.  Most people opt to purchase a top-up insurance to cover the remaining 30%.

Does the government have a minimum amount of cover in mind?

If you mean the minimum private cover for year 3-5, then it's generally assumed to be to the equivalent of state cover.  As mentioned previously, it's early days to be able to point to anyone's experience in providing evidence of this.

If you mean minimum cover for a top-up policy, then that's down to you.  Most insurers offer policies with a sliding scale of cover, starting off at the official tariff.  If you do a forum search you can find a more detailed explanation of the ins and outs of top-ups.

[/quote]

 

[Chancer]

[quote user="parsnips"][quote user="French Frank"][/quote]


  To be legally resident you have to have full health cover and a certain minimum income (at present 681.95€ per month for a couple--enough  so as not to be "a charge on the french state"). When demanding their long-stay carte de sejour after 5 yrs, they must present documentary evidence of resources and health cover. [/quote]

 

Mmm whilst I dont question the interpretation of "legally resident" I wonder whether in practice the requirement to have had full health cover during the 5 year residency to gain the carte de sejour is something extrapolated or dreamed up by those (insurers) wishing to exploit the situation.

Certainly the sans papiers that present themselves after working here for 5 years dont need to jump through this hoop, they are not a burden on the state as they are in employment, albeit illegally but of course without the CDS they couldnt gain employment legally.

As has been said it is too early to say for those early retirees that came after 2007.

[cooperlola]

I'd be very surprised if anybody's going to check up on the level of cover you've had - just so long as you're prepared to pay any bills outwith your policy in the intervening two and a half to three years.  But, as said several times now, nobody can actually say.  The theory at least is that your insurance should conform to the standards outlined in the law detailed HERE translated HERE - nothing to do with insurance companies pulling the wool.  My own personal opinion is that I doubt you'll be checked up on, but who knows?  It has yet to be tested so the risk is entirely yours, and only you can decide. 

 

[Sunday Driver]

EU citizens are not required to have a carte de séjour so the need to provide proof of resources/healthcover doesn't arise in this respect.

The concern is that the authority responsible for processing admissions to the couverture maladie universelle regime (ie, CPAM) may be instructed to enforce the provisions of the code de l'entrée et du séjour and require applicants to provide such proof of legal residency.

EDIT:  Crossed with Coops....

[parsnips]

[quote user="Chancer"]

[quote user="parsnips"][quote user="French Frank"][/quote]

  To be legally resident you have to have full health cover and a certain minimum income (at present 681.95€ per month for a couple--enough  so as not to be "a charge on the french state"). When demanding their long-stay carte de sejour after 5 yrs, they must present documentary evidence of resources and health cover. [/quote]

 

Mmm whilst I dont question the interpretation of "legally resident" I wonder whether in practice the requirement to have had full health cover during the 5 year residency to gain the carte de sejour is something extrapolated or dreamed up by those (insurers) wishing to exploit the situation.

Certainly the sans papiers that present themselves after working here for 5 years dont need to jump through this hoop, they are not a burden on the state as they are in employment, albeit illegally but of course without the CDS they couldnt gain employment legally.

As has been said it is too early to say for those early retirees that came after 2007.

[/quote]

Hi,

      I'm sorry , I should have said that everything I quoted was relevant to NON-ACTIFS, that is to say people (generally pensioners) not working. (That's the trouble with being old, you see things always from your personal point of view). The "have had" I put in because not knowing what criteria will be applied to these cases, and because without health cover residence would be technically  illegal, and given the possibility that the french may wish to minimise the number of such unproductive residents, it might be they would want documentary evidence of previous cover. Best to be prepared (and also covered against ill-health).

[cooperlola]

I'm always doing this, Parsnips!

Of course, Frank, as Parsnips says, if you work your insurance will be job-related and thus completly different rules apply.  A few people in your situation (particularly those with chronic and other medical conditions who cannot get full cover by any means, even if they pay the earth for it) are looking at starting small businesses under the new AutoEntrepreneur scheme, amongst others, as this may be cheaper than full PHI.

[powerdesal]

[quote user="parsnips"]

given the possibility that the french may wish to minimise the number of such unproductive residents,

[/quote]

Its quite difficult to rationalise the possible wish to minimise the number of inactif immigrants, they are, in the cases discussed here, generally ex-UK and receiving E121 payments from UK. They are also generally bringing money into France in the form of pensions. Hence they are not a charge on the French state and are actually nett contributors to the French economy by spending UK generated income on French goods and services. A substantial number will of course be paying taxes to France on income. The only possible downside would be if the cost of state medical treatment exceeds the UK E121 payments.

[parsnips]

[quote user="powerdesal"][quote user="parsnips"]

given the possibility that the french may wish to minimise the number of such unproductive residents,

[/quote]

Its quite difficult to rationalise the possible wish to minimise the number of inactif immigrants, they are, in the cases discussed here, generally ex-UK and receiving E121 payments from UK. They are also generally bringing money into France in the form of pensions. Hence they are not a charge on the French state and are actually nett contributors to the French economy by spending UK generated income on French goods and services. A substantial number will of course be paying taxes to France on income. The only possible downside would be if the cost of state medical treatment exceeds the UK E121 payments.

[/quote]

Hi,

     I was thinking of  the many UK"early retirees"- ie. voluntary unemployed,  who, at the moment may or may not just reach the required minimum income to qualify for legal residence-(I know of quite a few who , because of the exchange rate have slipped below) and who may, or may not ,be able to afford private health cover , or ,like some, just hope for the best.

    Many are nowhere near the state retirement age, and it is these people who are waiting hopefully for the chance to sign on for free health care from the CMU, once they have been 5 years resident. A lot of these early arrivals have not got full NI records in the UK and even if their health care is paid for on E121 will struggle to survive on reduced pensions, and as is the case even now for some UK pensioners will be applying for french state aid via ASPA--have a look at some of the forums and also the "Connexion" correspondence about this aid. .

[Benjamin]

[quote user="parsnips"]

Hi,

     I was thinking of  the many UK"early retirees"- ie. voluntary unemployed,  who, at the moment may or may not just reach the required minimum income to qualify for legal residence

[/quote]

Could you explain what the minimum figure has been set at by the French State?

[Mikep]

Just a small point for early retirees to bear in mind is that both of the couple qualify for free health cover if either of the couple receives UK state pension. Since women start to receive at age 60 (currently), this can be a useful saving - the CMU costs otherwise are 11% of income.

[parsnips]

[quote user="Benjamin"][quote user="parsnips"]

Hi,

     I was thinking of  the many UK"early retirees"- ie. voluntary unemployed,  who, at the moment may or may not just reach the required minimum income to qualify for legal residence

[/quote]

Could you explain what the minimum figure has been set at by the French State?

[/quote]

Hi,

     The current "guide" figure on the french govt. site "vos droits", is 681,95€ for a couple, which is the access level for RSA (income support). This is a rule of thumb only, and does not necessarily mean that a couple with say 660€ would be immediately expelled , but they might be wise not to apply for RSA or ASPA if they wish to apply for permanent residence in the future.

[Benjamin]

No one I know has ever been asked to prove a minimum level of income and I've never seen anyone on this forum who has been asked. Equally I don't know anyone who has tried to claim RSA or ASPA (whatever they might be: unemployment or social security?).

Is it a case of the question not being asked until someone is in financial difficulty? Whilst not questioning that there may be an unofficial "guide" figure, there doesn't appear any will on the part of the State to enforce it.

I appreciate that there may be immigrants who are in financial trouble and they're hardly likely to  broadcast the fact on a forum.

[Sunday Driver]

The minimum resource figures quoted on Vos Droits (updated since April 2009) are actually definitive rather than an unofficial guideline.

RSA is a supplementary benefit for people on low incomes.  ASPA is the same for people over 65 years of age.

There have been many discussions on forums about people being refused RSA.  On the other hand, ASPA seems to be being allocated regardless of income levels being below the immigration 'resource' threshold.  However, as people don't always give the full background to their claims, it's difficult to obtain a reliable view of the situation.

 

[Clair]

Benjamin, for clarification:

RSA is a form of income support for those of working age (discussed here)

ASPA is a form of income support for retired workers (discussed here)

[Benjamin]

Thanks to you both for your clear explanations.

I've just never heard of anyone (post carte de sejour) being asked to prove their income.

[parsnips]

[quote user="Benjamin"]Thanks to you both for your clear explanations.

I've just never heard of anyone (post carte de sejour) being asked to prove their income.

[/quote]

Hi,

    Neither have , but equally I have never heard of anyone who has yet tried to obtain a long term, or permanent ,carte de sejour under the new 5 year "rule".

[malheureusement]

"Just a small point for early retirees to bear in mind is that both of the couple qualify for free health cover if either of the couple receives UK state pension. Since women start to receive at age 60 (currently), this can be a useful saving - the CMU costs otherwise are 11% of income. "

My partner is 60 in 2010. Would I also qualify for free health cover or is that only if we are married?

[Sprogster]

It is important to know that private health insurance has two main limitations, in that it is unlikely pre-existing health conditions would be covered and chronic health conditions like diabetes and most neurological diseases, are rarely covered beyond diagnosis.

[parsnips]

[quote user="malheureusement"]"Just a small point for early retirees to bear in mind is that both of the couple qualify for free health cover if either of the couple receives UK state pension. Since women start to receive at age 60 (currently), this can be a useful saving - the CMU costs otherwise are 11% of income. "

My partner is 60 in 2010. Would I also qualify for free health cover or is that only if we are married?[/quote]

Hi,

     The french health authorities do accept french unmarried partners as dependants, and at one time accepted expats in the same situation, but now they I believe they insist that each partner has their own E121, so you would have to convince the UK to issue you one on dependancy grounds.  It might be easier to get married.