Gardian Posted October 6, 2023 Share Posted October 6, 2023 Ours isn’t a complex tax return, which I thought was correctly. made. Got the assessment yesterday and it was €1200 more than I was expecting. My complacency was shattered. My understanding was that all pension income went in to boxes 1AM & 1BM and that any part of that which was assessable in the UK went as a separate number in to 8TK. Mrs G has her UK state pension and her occupational pension as a civil servant. The numbers (rounded for simplicity) are €8,500 and €9,500 respectively. Accordingly, I entered €18,000 in 1BM and €9,500 in 8TK, all more or less exactly as I did last year, when the sum assessed was as expected. However, the Impots have lumped the two together and shown her income as €27,500 ! They seem very sure that I declared it incorrectly. Did I ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveLister Posted October 6, 2023 Share Posted October 6, 2023 I can't be of much help I'm afraid as I don't know anything about civil service pensions but if you did the same thing last year and got a different result I would be asking for explanations from the tax office. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judith Posted October 6, 2023 Share Posted October 6, 2023 (edited) 6 hours ago, Gardian said: Ours isn’t a complex tax return, which I thought was correctly. made. Got the assessment yesterday and it was €1200 more than I was expecting. My complacency was shattered. My understanding was that all pension income went in to boxes 1AM & 1BM and that any part of that which was assessable in the UK went as a separate number in to 8TK. Mrs G has her UK state pension and her occupational pension as a civil servant. The numbers (rounded for simplicity) are €8,500 and €9,500 respectively. Accordingly, I entered €18,000 in 1BM and €9,500 in 8TK, all more or less exactly as I did last year, when the sum assessed was as expected. However, the Impots have lumped the two together and shown her income as €27,500 ! They seem very sure that I declared it incorrectly. Did I ? Just checking my return (we have civil service equivalent pensions too) (removed figures) Pensions, retraites, rentes, rentes viagères à titre onéreux Pensions ouvrant droit à crédit d'impôt égal à l'impôt français et pensions des non résidents - Déclarant 1 1 AL - civil service pension Pensions ouvrant droit à crédit d'impôt égal à l'impôt français et pensions des non résidents - Déclarant 2 1 BL - civil service pension ( I know it is that 'cos it is not big) Autres pensions de source étrangère - Déclarant 1 -1 AM - other pensions except civil service Autres pensions de source étrangère - Déclarant 2- 1 BM other pensions except civil service The full pensions (added together for each person) go into the red form 2047 in full - section 12, one total of all pensions for each person, and should then get carries across automatically. (so AL+AM. and BL+BM) I'm trying to remember if they changed something on the forms this year as I know I struggled more after completely reasonably easily in other years. Hope that helps. EDITed: yes civil serivce pensions also go in 8TK and the total appears on the form you get at the end ... and htis might also be transferred across, but can't remember either. Edited October 6, 2023 by Judith 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NormanH Posted October 7, 2023 Share Posted October 7, 2023 Did you fill in the separate section 2047 revenus de source étrangère et revenus encaissés à l’étranger (2047) which then is transferred across tp 2042.? This is explained here: https://www.impots.gouv.fr/particulier/questions/comment-seront-imposes-mes-revenus-percus-de-letranger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NormanH Posted October 7, 2023 Share Posted October 7, 2023 It sounds to me as if they haven't given you the allowance against tax paid at source in the UK on your wife's Civil Service pension. They should calculate what would have been paid on that if all had been payable in France then deduct that from your tax bill.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gardian Posted October 8, 2023 Author Share Posted October 8, 2023 Norman ........ No, they did that OK. I think that maybe Judith is close to the solution with the suggestion that I should have separated the two numbers in to boxes BL & BM. It’s also more than possible that they haven’t applied their own rules correctly! I’m going to go to the Impots tomorrow and hopefully I’ll be able to see somebody there and then or make an appointment for an rdv another day. Thanks everybody for the replies - I’ll let you know of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judith Posted October 8, 2023 Share Posted October 8, 2023 Gardian, Yes, it's not easy, and the impots don't always get to right either. ONe presumes that they all know about the double taxation treaty but it's quite possible that some do not. But the layout of the forms also seemed to have changed this year and I struggled more this year than usually to get it all into the correct spots. And I never did find the bit where you put UK bank interest - decided it was not so large as to make much of a difference and gave up with it. I will also confess that off the top of my head I had forgotten that everything first goes into 2047 (which you don't start with on the online system) and in the 2042 it's where you split it into its conponent parts. I can tell by the figures which is which as my CS pensions is peanuts, but gets split to get what we can form the impots. But it's how I knew which pt was which. Good luck anyhow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gardian Posted October 10, 2023 Author Share Posted October 10, 2023 Well, Judith was absolutely right and I’m a complete idiot. I should have put Mrs G’s civil service pension in to 1BL rather than lump all pension incomes together and putting them in ‘AM & BM’. In my defence, its what I did in 2022 for 2021 earnings and I reckon that the person calculating the assessment realised that I should have split some of it off, but just dealt with it. For this year’s declaration, I just did what I’d done last year, but this time it was taken at face-value. My daft mistake and I only got corroboration when I found some aide-memoire notes telling me what should go in which box. I went to the Impots office yesterday and there was a queue of 20 or so people in front of me! However, they operate a sort-of triage system there which actually works quite well and it was only half an hour to get to one of the people. I explained the problem and showed her the reply to my query which said “Give us something which tells us what sort of pension this one is”. Not unreasonably, she told me that it might be a good idea to do what I’d been asked to do ! I went off with a proverbial flea in my ear. I’m going to reply to their message with the pension P60 and suggest that I simply re-do my return. Hopefully, that offer will be accepted. Not my finest hour, but there you go. It’s my age catching up with me ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judith Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 Gardian, I am pleased that you found my advice helped, and I thank you for the compliment. I got the advice from one of old posters, whose name escapes me .. but he knew his stuff. I suspect that if you do send in a ne retrun they will be understanding, they much prefer people to correct their mistakes even if late, than penalise unless t hey have to do, and I think they do yunderstand that they thir forms are not always very easy to understand and fill out .. good luck, and hope it all works out for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gardian Posted October 12, 2023 Author Share Posted October 12, 2023 The Impots said “Absolutely fine to make a correction”, so I did. It took 10 mins max, with a revised assessment at the end. The number was exactly what I’d originally expected. 😀 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Un autre Gallois Posted October 16, 2023 Share Posted October 16, 2023 HI - just catching up with this topic, been away for Autumn break! I think it's worth mentioning that it's sometimes advantageous to verify carefully the information on the Avis, especially the reduction of 10pcent ( Abattement Spécial) from the declared pensions, subject to a maximum prescribed annually. Also the calculation of the tax credit in respect of tax already paid in the UK using the following: Impot avant réductions d'impot x Crédits d'impot sur rev. étrangers, montant déclaré = Total des réductions Revenu imposable In the past I have found the calculation to be erroneous - maybe the stagiaires have been given something to do! UaG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Un autre Gallois Posted October 16, 2023 Share Posted October 16, 2023 Just now, Un autre Gallois said: HI - just catching up with this topic, been away for Autumn break! I think it's worth mentioning that it's sometimes advantageous to verify carefully the information on the Avis, especially the reduction of 10pcent ( Abattement Spécial) from the declared pensions, subject to a maximum prescribed annually. Also the calculation of the tax credit in respect of tax already paid in the UK using the following: Impot avant réductions d'impot x Crédits d'impot sur rev. étrangers, montant déclaré = Total des réductions Revenu imposable In the past I have found the calculation to be erroneous - maybe the stagiaires have been given something to do! UaG Gremlins! The right side (=) of the calculation should be "Total des réductions" . the word "réductions " appearing under Impot avant réductions...." has somehow drifted! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VortexJester Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 Your pension breakdown seems right to me. I'd double-check with the Impots and maybe bring last year's return to show how you did it then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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