VERY IMPORTANT INFORMATION RE 2011 DECLARATIONS

[NormanH]

Tax paid in the UK has no impact on the tax due here since the new system takes into account gross income rather than net.

Nine times more sounds a lot, but it depends on the base figure. For example it would be quite probable that someone who paid 20 € last year could find a tax bill of 180€ under the new system, but less likely that 1000€ would become 9000€

What is happening is that your UK military pension is taken into account  to see which tax band or bands in the French system should be used to tax the income which is taxable in France (such as a UK OAP)

[parsnips]

[quote user="Jamesdee"]I first of all have to admit that I am not skilled at anything other than worrying a bone to death and I am thoroughly confused by this tax change.

I submitted my tax return at the Jonzac office and my Avis duly arrived and was horrendous. On examining the form however i discovered that I had transposed two critical figures. I went to the office and was advised to do a "Rectificative" with a covering letter. Feeling this was beyond me I asked an organisation to do it for me. It was quickly completed and a copy sent to me. On reading through this I noticed that in Box VI of the 2047 my total Military pension was entered. In the next column was a figure I did not recognise but when I asked the question I was told this was the total amount of tax I had paid on my income in the UK. A tax estimate for France was given which was roughly 9 times what I paid the previous year on exactly the same amount of pension and tax paid. I was assured this was correct. When I went back and said that the incorrect tax figure had been applied and that in fact the actual amount paid was over four hundred euros more than had been entered into the form, I was told that even applying that figure produced the same amount of tax liability so there was no point in resubmitting.

I hope somebody has been able to follow this. I have two questions which I hope some kind person can help with. First of all does 9 times last years tax bill sound right? Secondly and probably more importantly, does the total tax paid in the UK impact on the tax calculation made by the French. Is it true that revising upwards by around 450 Euros the figure of tax paid on the form 2047 will have no impact on the tax required by the French authority?

I would be very grateful for any help and offer my thanks in advance.[/quote]

Hi,

      Your military pension is taxable only in the UK.  In France it is taken into account to calculate your french tax rate, but it should not be taxed.  Under the new system the gross pension is taken into account--the tax paid in the UK is not relevant and should not be declared ( a note on form 2047 sec VI, makes this clear).  Its impossible to say if 9 times last years tax is correct , without knowing what you paid last year.  If last year you paid , say, 10 € and now pay 90€, I would say that was feasible.  If , on the other hand you paid 400€ last year and 3600€ now, I'd say you had cause for complaint.  The new system, because it uses gross figures results in an increase for most people.

[Jamesdee]

Thank you both for your comments. I now understand much more than I did. Last year I paid 71 and this year it is estimated to be 540 Euros. Having written it down I realise it is more like 8 times last years payment than 9 but still a considerable increase, wouldn't you say?

[JohnRoss]

Parsnips should Jamesdee see a credit d'impot on his avis if a Military pension counts as a UK govt pension?.......JR

[parsnips]

[quote user="JohnRoss"]Parsnips should Jamesdee see a credit d'impot on his avis if a Military pension counts as a UK govt pension?.......JR[/quote]

Hi,

 Yes, there should be a line below "IMPOT TOTAL AVANT IMPUTATIONS"  saying "Crédit d'impot sur rev. étrangers (13)   Calculé        ****    Retenu ****

 and a minus amount.   This is the amount of extra tax which would have been payable if the military pension was taxed in France.  If this line is not there the tax demand is incorrect.   If it is vastly different from the amount resulting from the formula  which is elsewhere in this thread , then it may be incorrect.

[JohnRoss]

Indeed and I suppose it depends on if his gross Military pension was entered in 8TK on the 2042 form..................JR

[NormanH]

I have now made a simple spread sheet to calculate French tax due, based on a single person with a  UK Government pension, a OAP, and other French taxable income up to  26420€.

I would like to test it against a real 'Avis' but haven't had mine yet.

Is there anyway of posting a spreadsheet on here so that others can test it if interested?

It should be available at

http://dl.free.fr/hRy2kCRDO

but I am not confident [8-)]

The figures are random and there for test purposes...replace with your own.

[tinabee]

[quote user="NormanH"]I have now made a simple spread sheet to calculate French tax due, based on a single person with a  UK Government pension, a OAP, and other French taxable income up to  26420€.

I would like to test it against a real 'Avis' but haven't had mine yet.

Is there anyway of posting a spreadsheet on here so that others can test it if interested?

It should be available at
http://dl.free.fr/hRy2kCRDO
but I am not confident [8-)]
The figures are random and there for test purposes...replace with your own.
[/quote]

Hi Norman,

just tried to download your spreadsheet but got a zip file with various content - but no spreadsheet. Was it Excel?

If you have a google account, you could try uploading to google docs

[NormanH]

Its the Open Office version of Excel

It works ok for me, but then I always use the cheap versions..

Will try on google.

The one I posted is from free, my FAI

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuTBbphDzPcwdFZlMURLRF9tdDU0VkUwaUYwYlpJRGc&hl=en_US

[tinabee]

[quote user="NormanH"]Its the Open Office version of Excel
It works ok for me, but then I always use the cheap versions..
Will try on google.

The one I posted is from free, my FAI

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuTBbphDzPcwdFZlMURLRF9tdDU0VkUwaUYwYlpJRGc&hl=en_US
[/quote]

Spreadsheet is good - you can "save as" into Excel so no problem

Sorry, can't test is easily as we are 2 parts on the Avis and the 10% abatement doesn't apply to our French income.

Assume the calculations are for income that is only from pensions and does not include any savings interest or "CSG deductible"

 

[NormanH]

The  French income was for earnings or rents.I was mainly concerned to make something to look at the  UK Government

pensions being taken into account at the gross figure and in a new

calculation, so I have used only the simplest sorts of income from the

spreadsheet

I haven't considered CSG, and of course if you paid last year (at least for rents) a portion is deductible.

I thought that the 10% was applied to total income. Does it not apply to businesses or savings etc?

Genuine question...

[tinabee]

[quote user="NormanH"]The  French income was for earnings or rents.I was mainly concerned to make something to look at the  UK Government pensions being taken into account at the gross figure and in a new calculation, so I have used only the simplest sorts of income from the spreadsheet
I haven't considered CSG, and of course if you paid last year (at least for rents) a portion is deductible.
I thought that the 10% was applied to total income. Does it not apply to businesses or savings etc?
Genuine question...

[/quote]

The 10% is just pensions and a standard deduction for expenses if you are employed (don't know about self-employed, and I claim actuals for travel to & from work). Definitely no abatement for savings. If I get a chance tomorrow, I'll have a go at including some of the variables and see if I can get it to work - and then check against the Avis.

[tinabee]

The basic calculations in the spreadsheet work [:)]

To take into account CSG deductible and match to the Avis, use the following changes

Revenu brut global (RBG) = pension + other income (rents/savings) less the 10% abatement (or frais réels)

Taxable = RBG - CSG deductible

The credit is as you have it with Total replaced by RBG

(French Tax*Gross govt Pension)/RBG

Using the basic figures you supplied, the tax and credit figures come out the same

If you can open an excel spreadsheet using OpenOffice, let me know and I will upload the amended version

[NormanH]

Thanks a lot for that.

I believe that Open Office can open Excel spreadsheets.

I started to think about putting in a line which allows people to put in UK income in sterling and enter the exchange rate they wish to use, but once you start you would never stop.

It's the same with more complicated situations, especially concerning French income.

As I said before I basically just wanted to calculate the new way for people with Government pensions ..

[cooperlola]

It's a bit like your very useful hospital vocuablary thread.  It starts off as a  page or two but has the potential to grow into Funk and Wagnalls if you're not careful[:-))]!  Really good of you to do all this work, Norman.  [:)]

[NormanH]

You can talk about doing work [:)]

At least it keeps us occupied at home when other circumstances mean that we are not as active as before..

[cooperlola]

Does anybody actually understand the logic which suggests that one should pay tax anywhere other than in the country from whose budget one benefits?  I've never truly understood why public sector pensions are treated in this way.

[NormanH]

I don't certainly, and as I said before I get every thing here. My health care is paid for by France (unlike most people here) and all other services are provided by France.

I could even vote for the President if I got off my backside and took Dual Nationality, whereas the UK won't let me vote.

I would happily pay all here.

[tinabee]

Amended spreadsheet here

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Am2vUo1_NQtkdDFoelRfeUZFc0JIMzJIVEx5VEVyU1E&hl=en_US

I have made the fields to type in your own figures blue.

The allowances are the normal 10% but if different you can type in the actual deductions instead of the calculation.

Hope it works

 

 

[NormanH]

Thanks a lot for your interest and your imput.

That is a lot better [:D]

There is a basic flaw in my original, which I don't know how to solve.

It works fine as long as the income per part is over the 11896 level, but under that you get false negatives in the total..

Try it with 9000  for one part or 17000 for two and you will see what I mean.

In my case this doesn't matter, but I can imagine some couples or people with children might well have under 11896 per part ....

[tinabee]

[quote user="NormanH"]Thanks a lot for your interest and your imput.
That is a lot better [:D]

There is a basic flaw in my original, which I don't know how to solve.
It works fine as long as the income per part is over the 11896 level, but under that you get false negatives in the total..
Try it with 9000  for one part or 17000 for two and you will see what I mean.

In my case this doesn't matter, but I can imagine some couples or people with children might well have under 11896 per part ....
[/quote]

New version uploaded - copes with lower (and higher) incomes

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Am2vUo1_NQtkdEFESzUxVzJrVzFNZlVrZVJJUGI1WlE&hl=en_US

(you just need an IF function)

[NormanH]

Wow that is impressive..I had been scratching my head over that one...

[B]

Have tinkered twice

1) changed formula in B23  from E17*B10 to E17/B10   to take account of parts, and

Changed C19 to be permanantly 0

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuTBbphDzPcwdFdmdFNSNGVrR0FlZV9aRzk2Zk5CRmc&hl=en_US

[tinabee]

[quote user="NormanH"]Wow that is impressive..I had been scratching my head over that one...

[B]
Have tinkered twice
1) changed formula in B23  from E17*B10 to E17/B10   to take account of parts, and
Changed C19 to be permanantly 0



https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuTBbphDzPcwdFdmdFNSNGVrR0FlZV9aRzk2Zk5CRmc&hl=en_US
[/quote]

Hi

If you are 2 parts then you need to multiply the tax per part by 2 to get the tax per household (which is the reason for the formula in B23) otherwise you will get a false result. The division of taxable income by parts is already done in B12. If you are only 1 part, just change B10 to 1

C19? (blank cell)

[NormanH]

But doesn't a two person household pay half the tax, not double?

[tinabee]

[quote user="NormanH"]But doesn't a two person household pay half the tax, not double?
[/quote]

The total taxable income per household is divided by the number of parts. The tax for each part is calculated using the "tranches". Then the tax per part if multiplied by the number of parts to arrive at the tax per household.

Hope this makes sense.