A French view of the English economy.

[NormanH]

On this Forum the general economic view of France tends to accord with an American 'Neo-con' liberal capitalist agenda.

It is no secret that this isn't the automatic idea of French economists, and the usual reply would be to compare such things as the unemployment figures and the growth rates of the UK versus France.

This chap gives a critique of that analysis which is worth a read

Taux

de chômage pour les nuls

On

peut faire comme chez les sujets de leur majesté, sans problème.

Mais il va falloir bien prendre en compte certaines données plutôt

sensibles, avant. Le chômage anglais est, disons-le, une vaste

escroquerie. Sans compter le fait qu’un chômeur anglais

est,  niveau prestation sociale — un peu comme une vache

qu’on conduit à l’abattoir, puisque son chômage est plafonné à

une misère et qu’il ne peut excéder six mois — il faut savoir

que près de 3 million de personnes sont en incapacités en

Angleterre, et donc inaptes au travail, mais indemnisées, et ne sont

pas comptées dans les statistiques… du chômage. Si l’on y

ajoute les 800 000 travailleurs clandestins, plus les fameux contrats

zéro heure permettant à un chef d’entreprise d’embaucher

quelqu’un sans lui garantir une seule heure de travail (le rendant

corvéable à merci et en dépendance totale envers cet employeur et

donc, sans garantie de salaire), les bons chiffres du chômage

anglais sont une vaste rigolade que tout observateur de la chose

économique devrait immédiatement arrêter d’utiliser comme

facteur positif — lorsqu’il parle d’économie.

Baisse

des dépenses publiques : oui, mais…non

Toute

la belle politique économique de réduction des dépenses publiques,

orientées vers le fameux discours du « on va baisser la dette

et le déficit public aussi » a servi aux dirigeants politiques

britanniques pour privatiser  un maximum de secteurs,

réduire « l’effort » de l’Etat, casser des services

publics, déjà moribonds en Angleterre. Ce sont des politiques que

l’idéologie hypercapitaliste souvent nommée néo-libéralisme,

adore, puisqu’elles permettent à des grands groupes

industriels  et commerciaux de « privatiser la vie »,

afin de réduire le citoyen en client et pouvoir se goinfrer de

profits quand ça décolle tout en se faisant rembourser vial’argent

public si ça dérape. Chacun connaît ce principe très répandu

depuis une quinzaine d’années en Europe.

Regardons

donc maintenant où en sont la dette publique et le déficit du

Royaume-Uni. Ça ne va pas fort. Pas fort du tout. La dette est

encore à plus de 90% (Bruxelles demande 60%), le déficit a bondi à

près de 6% (Bruxelles exige 3%). Ahlalalala, mais alors, à quoi bon

? On se le demande, malgré quelques explications assez triviales : à

force d’obliger les populations les plus défavorisées à bosser

pour des cacahuètes, mais en les incitant à s’endetter, on

obtient l’effet suivant : la croissance par la consommation est

dopée, d’où les 3% de croissance du PIB, mais les recettes de

l’Etat baissent parce que les précaires payent peu de cotisations.

Et s’ils sont très nombreux, c’est de moins en moins de recettes

qui rentrent dans les caisses de l’Etat. Donc, le déficit et la

dette continuent d’augmenter, pas pour cause de trop de dépenses,

mais pour cause de pas assez de rentrées.

23% de la population sous le seuil de pauvreté… et l’endettement privé qui explose

Des chouettes chiffres qui devraient inspirer Macron et son chef Valls, comme le grand manitou social-démocrate Hollande : près d’un quart de la population britannique est en dessous du seuil de pauvreté et la dette des ménages s’élève à 170% de ses revenus. Ahahah : amusante économie autant basée sur le secteur tertiaire que la nôtre, avec un volet finance-paradis fiscal au sein de la deuxième plus grosse place boursière du monde — la City — qui repose sur une bulle immobilière et une politique d’expansion monétaire, de rachat de dette par la Banque centrale du coin. Parce qu’en Angleterre, ils n’ont pas l’euro, mais une inflation à 4,5% et aux environs de 15% de la dette de l’Etat rachetée par la Banque centrale. Tout ça n’est pas très glorieux et repose sur des montages un peu bancals, avec des risques très élevés en cas de changement des taux d’intérêts, ce qui — dans le cas d’une bulle immobilière — ne manque jamais de survenir.

Source http://reflets.info/et-si-la-croissance-economique-ne-servait-a-rien/

[idun]

Grrrr IF I see another ignorant french person insinuate that there is no unemployment benefit after six months in the UK, I reckon I shall scream. They say it on french tv too.

So how can I really take this seriously hein? 

Also, if there are zero hours contracts in the UK, well the CDD's are now down to 'days', is that any better?

Both countries are so different, and facts need to be 'right', so I'll take no notice of this article.

[ventodue]

Good post, Norman - thanks.

It's always a shame when an economist overlays his science with his own political interpretation [:)].  But at least some of his figures seem to check out:

• UK deficit (as % of GDP) is indeed "plus de 90%".  It's 90.6% (Office National Statistics).  Strangely, he fails to mention that it's higher in France  - 95.1% (Projet de loi des finances 2014)

• (If we can forgive him a little inflation [:-))]), then UK debt (as % of GDP) is indeed "près de 6%";  It's actually 5.3% (OECD. France 3.8%).

• And the latest report from the Institute of Fiscal Studies does indeed maintain that 23.2% of the UK population is living below the poverty line.

His claimed UK inflation rate of 4.5% is a bit wonky, mind: according to the ONS, the RPI is at 2% and the Consumer Prices Index is at 1%.

Making comparisons of national unemployment rates is always difficult.  But all I do know is that the UK uses the definition of the International Labour Organisation (an agency of the United Nations).  Dunno what France uses ...?

But, hey! Just don't ask me what it all means ..[8-)]

[NormanH]

"Grrrr IF I see another ignorant french person insinuate that there is no

unemployment benefit after six months in the UK, I reckon I shall

scream."

I thought that ‘contribution-based Jobseeker’s Allowance’ was only available for 182 days

That is what the French mean by chômage.

French equivalent here: http://www.pole-emploi.fr/candidat/la-duree-de-votre-indemnisation-@/suarticle.jspz?id=4118

Of course both countries have  longer-term benefits

[NormanH]

As for how the figures are  calculated there is this

http://www.pole-emploi.org/actualites/comment-sont-calcules-les-chiffres-du-chomage--@/543/view-article-75876.html

where it is stated that

"les statistiques de l’INSEE

permettent des comparaisons internationales que celles-ci sont

régulièrement reprises. La méthode de calcul de Pôle emploi, définie

selon la loi française (cf. point 5),

permet de fournir des indications précises sur la situation française,

mais chaque pays définit ses propres règles en matière de calcul du

nombre de demandeurs d’emploi, ce qui rend les comparaisons

internationales impossibles. Ainsi, Pôle emploi intègre les demandeurs non-indemnisés quand le Royaume-Uni ne les comptabilise pas dans ses statistiques nationales."

[YCCMB]

i love the bit about privatisation giving industry the right to treat its customers as clients. Whereas we all know that, in France, the customer is.....king. Or do I mean shit? ?

[idun]

But France did not have any long term benefits when I first moved there. That they eventually got a safety net was excellent. But remember, in the UK, there is no difference in payment between job seekers allowances, whether they be contribution based or non contribution based. Where as it is very different in France.

Maybe I am tooooo old now, but this feels like comparing eggs and cheese and seems an odd thing to do.

Both systems are so different that I personally won't even try and compare them.

[Chancer]

To my knowledge, whilst the chômage in France is generous once you are at fin de droits that really is it, not a penny more for you if you live in a foyer with others with income whereas in the UK when unemployment benefit or whatever they call it ends (indeed does it ever if you are seeking work) or you are not entitled to it then you will get other benefits which are close to the figure, please correct me if i am wrong as its been a decade since I really knew but I agree the average French person believes as much politically motivated rubbish about the UK system as vice versa.

I believe that the French system is far too generous in the early months and years when it is often 75% of salary, the first weeks are critical for someone to get back on the horse of employment, in France there is no motivation, its a very well paid Holiday, the chômeur has a sense of entitlement and would not dream of looking for another job until he has filled his boots, by which time they become lazy, entrenched in their ways or like me decide that working is a mugs game.

And then bang! one day no more money and they have long since lost whatever work ethic that they probably never had in the first place.

[idun]

I don't think it quite works like that either Chancer, I think that there is family means testing for some benefits including job seekers.

I shall say this, that I think that some of the french benefits are easier to obtain and easier to deal with than UK benefits. This is only based on how I have seen both systems work. The UK benefits are a paperasse nightmare as far as I can see, no wonder as the DWP is headed by at least two people who I ....... well, I shall say no more, as the insults will fly.

[YCCMB]

At least in the UK it is both significantly easier to employ and dismiss people, and significantly easier to start a business. I would be delighted if someone could explain to me why that might be a bad thing, but I'm sure someone will have a crack at it.

[Spyder]

[quote user="idun"]Grrrr IF I see another ignorant french person insinuate that there is no unemployment benefit after six months in the UK, I reckon I shall scream. They say it on french tv too.

So how can I really take this seriously hein? 

Also, if there are zero hours contracts in the UK, well the CDD's are now down to 'days', is that any better?

Both countries are so different, and facts need to be 'right', so I'll take no notice of this article.

[/quote]

What are you on? "reckon" - establish by calculation? and what does "hein" mean in an English sentence? Is there some reason you mix French and English in the same sentence? We are all aware you once lived in France.

CDD's?

"......... is that any better?" No definitely not!

".............so I'll take no notice of this article." Just as nobody takes any notice of your post!

[Spyder]

[quote user="idun"]The UK benefits are a paperasse nightmare as far as I can see, no wonder as the DWP is headed by at least two people who I ....... well, I shall say no more, as the insults will fly.

[/quote]

paperasse = paperwork, to those of us who write in English. Not that I mind French but I prefer one or the other. Let the insults fly.....................

 

[idun]

Spyder, I speak and write franglais, being in the bilingual household I am in, we speak franglais all the time. Just because you don't like it, is your problem, as I'll not stop.

If people don't want to read what I have said, when they see I've posted, they'll skip that bit of the post, c'est tout, ca m'est egale, or is that je m'en fiche[blink], that's life. I like and respect a lot of people on here, and I don't expect to agree with everyone, or please everyone either. I have my say, they have theirs, it usually works rather well without 'having a go at someone'.

[Chancer]

Speaking and writing Franglais is completely natural once you reach a certain competence and/or have most of your communications in the second language. I mean using Franglais when speaking to another French speaking English person.

My only day to day communication in English is by this and another forum, when I return to England its a real struggle to speak with ease and to not use any Franglais and TBH quite stressfull because I am self conscious about it, in the UK understandable some people may think that I am being pretenscious, I speak more confidently now in French, in France, to a French person than in England, in English, to an English person, nowhere near as competently but I am much more at ease, people know I am un étrangère and the less ignorant amongst them make allowances for how I speak.

I had one extended stay in the UK, it was getting very hard, a kind assistant in B&Q asked me could he help? what was I looking for? I couldnt find the phrase for boîte de rangement, I spent an evening in London with 2 long standing English friends who had both lived in France for 20 years, we spoke very heavy Franglais and it was to me such a pleasure to be able to express myself better than I was capable in both English and French and was the first time in weeks that I felt really relaxed.

I speak Franglais with the very few other French speaking English that I come into contact with, not consciously, its just natural, usually these are at a commemoration ceremony or similar, I have noticed on a couple of occasions other English becoming agitated and have recieved a few comments like those of Spyder, the common factor was that these were the people that had made practically zero progress in French even after a decade and I believe self conscious of the fact, a chip on the shoulder if you like.

To any person who speaks and understands French there is a world of difference between paperwork and paperasse and if I was speaking to another French speaking English person about the totally over the top obsession with paper, boxes to tick and the evangelical desire to overcomplicate things I would never use the word paperwork.

[mint]

[quote user="Chancer"]

To any person who speaks and understands French there is a world of difference between paperwork and paperasse and if I was speaking to another French speaking English person about the totally over the top obsession with paper, boxes to tick and the evangelical desire to overcomplicate things I would never use the word paperwork.

[/quote]

How well you have explained why some of us speak and write franglais [:D]  And, yes, it's not conscious and it's often because an English word does not convey the exact same meaning.

I grew up in a trilingual household and, to this day, when my sister visits, we are off on our own conversational game (because it IS partly a game and an enjoyable one) leaving my poor OH floundering[:)]

[Chancer]

It gets worse once you just start to accept the true meaning of French words without translating or relating them to English, not so much objects but emotions, feelings, concepts etc.

When I am speaking English often my brain is thinking in French, at the very least its trying to include feelings, emotions and concepts that may not exist in English.

A good example, a Canadian client was talking to me in Franglais, he slipped in the word orgueil and asked me how to express it in English, orgueil that is and not fierté as there is a significant difference in French but in English we just have the one word pride unless someone can give me a good way to express it in English.

Its at times like that when I am  relating the orgueil of someone in English that I stumble, I search for words and cannot properly express myself, in Franglais its no problem.

This year I have had several foreign clients that speak French and also English as a second language, often we have problems understanding the French of the other due to our particular accents (the Canadian being a problem for me) and we default to speaking in English but heavy with Franglais, its really a very easy way of communicating.

Bislama (Pidgin English) which I speak a little ,is nothing more than the Pacific islands equivalent of Franglais which has developed into several distinct but similar languages/dialects.

[idun]

[:)] I used to worry about sounding like delboy, but I don't anymore. I have more or less got 'just' english sussed with friends and then they use what I think a 'french' word or expression, and that throws me........ ie san fairy ann, not expected in a french accent, certainly french though.

And that is the thing, 'le mot juste' sometimes it is an english word, sometimes it is a french one.

[mint]

[quote user="Chancer"]

A good example, a Canadian client was talking to me in Franglais, he slipped in the word orgueil and asked me how to express it in English, orgueil that is and not fierté as there is a significant difference in French but in English we just have the one word pride unless someone can give me a good way to express it in English.

Its at times like that when I am  relating the orgueil of someone in English that I stumble, I search for words and cannot properly express myself, in Franglais its no problem.

[/quote]

Sympa is also hard to translate especially as you can use sympa to describe both people and places.  A French person, to whom I gave a link to look up my village, came back and told me that my village was très sympa![:D]

I know exactly what she means but what is the English word (and I don't count phrases or sentences) to replace that one single word?[8-)]

[ventodue]

(Just to get this thread back on topic ...[:)]

[quote user="NormanH"]As for how the figures are calculated, there is this:

http://www.pole-emploi.org/actualites/comment-sont-calcules-les-chiffres-du-chomage--@/543/view-article-75876.html <snip>[/quote]

Thanks Norman - good.

I s'pose we should assume that Yovan Menkevick, the author of the original piece, was not aware that Pole Emploi considers " les comparaisons

internationales impossibles".  But then again, it's just so much easier to say, "Le chômage anglais est, disons-le, une vaste

escroquerie" - n'est-ce pas?

I can't find much about this M. Menkevick.  I had assumed he was an economist; but from what I gather, he's actually a political commentator - or rather, as he puts it, "Journaliste, activiste, non-moraliste, écriviste".

Hmmm.  Pas de commentaire [:P].

[nomoss]

I found it curious that Mr Menkevick lifted an image from Roman Polanski's "Oliver Twist" [url]http://schweitzer-col.spip.ac-rouen.fr/spip.php?article403[/url] to illustrate conditions in England.

As he wishes to show France as superior to early 19th century England, maybe it would be fair to show a picture of people during this period in France.

As cameras were not used much for street scenes in the 19th century, here is a 20th century photo of a typical French town (it could even be ours).

Pretty wealthy looking lot! [:D]

[URL=http://s857.photobucket.com/user/nomoss/media/Posted%20on%20Forums/social-classes-of-19th-century-france-14-728_zps80c23a8e.jpg.html][IMG]http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab131/nomoss/Posted%20on%20Forums/social-classes-of-19th-century-france-14-728_zps80c23a8e.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

[nomoss]

For contrast, here is a more recent picture of the last village in which we lived

[url]http://album.minervois-gen.org/piwigo/picture.php?/313/categories[/url]

[YCCMB]

Long before I lived in France, I had a French boss, married to an Australian lady and who hadn't lived i France for an age. His English was also peppered with franglais, unintentional and yet often so convincing that I found myself resorting to the dictionary to see if his "English" words actually existed.

I found myself occasionally using his invented words, totally oblivious to the fact that I was doing so, or to the fact that they didn't exist.

I had a problem for some time with "disembark", for example, as my boss used to "debark" when he got off a plane, and my subconscious embraced it as a perfectly valid alternative.

[mint]

[quote user="You can call me Betty"]Long before I lived in France, I had a French boss, married to an Australian lady and who hadn't lived i France for an age. His English was also peppered with franglais, unintentional and yet often so convincing that I found myself resorting to the dictionary to see if his "English" words actually existed.

I found myself occasionally using his invented words, totally oblivious to the fact that I was doing so, or to the fact that they didn't exist.

I had a problem for some time with "disembark", for example, as my boss used to "debark" when he got off a plane, and my subconscious embraced it as a perfectly valid alternative.[/quote]

Ha, ha, I recognise this phenomenon!

I do that sometimes, not with English words that don't exist but with French ones.  It took the teacher several minutes to convince me that "incomprehensiblement" does not exist in French.

[idun]

 that's as maybe mint, but I know I would understand that in any sentence, french or english. [:D]

[idun]

Spyder, see what you have started....... all these people with very different view points, but when it boils down to it, a rather happy bunch really and I am pleased I come on this board.

You seemed to think you'd get insults........ all I can say is detendez-vous! Life is too short!