Insults

[Hoddy]

Something occurred to me while reading the “Justice” thread.

My last faint illusions about sport have now been dashed – I’m more of the Chris pp school of thought myself – or I was.

Then I wondered why is it that when people have insulted me they have done it straightforwardly. They have never sought to insult my father, husband, brother or son. Come to think of it they’ve never insulted my female relatives either.

Is other women’s experience the same as mine ?

Is it a certain sort of man who goes in for this sort of thing ? Is it confined to the football pitch and rap music ?

What do you think ?

Hoddy

[Dick Smith]

Kids will fight over 'Your Mum'...

[Patf]

Yes I've come across that one, Dick. Also when confronting parents with the misdemeanors of their children, or if complaints were made to me about my children, the hackles go up immediately. Straight into denial and  not unknown to be followed by a punch on the nose. ( Not by me though.). Pat.

[Miki]

I do think that asking this kind of question means you do not know a

lot about the world out there. Sorry if that sounds rude but life is a

little bit more than talking to the W.I and out there, is a world full

of folks enjoying sport of all kinds and in all pro sport there will be

a degree of "sledging". One might not like it, I don't confess to

myself but I know why it happens and also why it is in Rap for the

young peeps to offer their own kind of music. I supect Elvis never sat well

with your parents !

What you mean by a certain man is undefinable, any man who hits their thumb will swear, does he become a certain kind of man

unless of course he is a true saint ! I haven't watched or played it

but my bet is that the demure ladies in international Hockey may well

get a bit in to a bit of baiting. Rugby and Cricket sees quite a bit of

it all, jockeys wind each other up, the list goes on and on and yes, it

is more of  way to get men wound up if the Mother is insulted, it

means nothing in real terms and it is one up to the offender if the

opposition player takes the bait...Like it or not, that's the way it is

and I bet until Zidane came along, my guess is most people thought the

players were always talking about the weather [;-)]

[Hoddy]

Miki I obviously haven’t explained myself very well.

I was brought up with four brothers and my working life was spent with the army and in a tough multi cultural comprehensive school. Perhaps not the wide experience of the world that you have, but no less valid I think. I think I’ve heard all the swear words.

It’s true that I’m not very interested in sport. I am interested in language and the point I was trying to make, obviously not clearly enough, was that no-one has ever tried to insult me by insulting my male relatives. I was wondering if anyone had tried to insult the other women on the forum by impugning their male relatives honour, physical attributes or whatever.

Nothing to do with sport or the WI at all.

Hoddy

[Dick Smith]

You mean that women (and women's parts) are most frequently invoked in insults?

Yes, I think that may be true, but there is a very healthy male contribution to the genre as well.

The other point, about unsettling opponents with insults, is also true, unfortunately.

[chris pp]

So it's acceptable?

Come on Miki, the fact that people behave badly doesn't make it OK. In my case it's nothing to do with having led a sheltered life, it just so happens that I don't gamble and haven't watched sport for a number of years and was therefore interested to have it confirmed that not only apparently is this the "norm" but that it is widely reckoned to be OK.

Goes a long way toward making a better world - I think not!

Chris

[PossumGirl]

Hoddy, I don't think that women, in general, insult each other in roundabout ways; we tend to be far more personal when attacking each other.  And, men don't attack our male relatives, probably because they don't find that particularly insulting.  Maybe it has to do with the pedestal on which men put their own mothers/sisters?  Or else, maybe they think their fathers can watch out for themselves?

PG

[Hoddy]

This is the sort of area I was musing in, Possumgirl. All the insults I've ever had have been direct - either for something I am, I've said or done.

It just seems curious to me that we use language in this way.

Hoddy

[Miki]

Sorry Chris but by not accepting that insults have been a part of life

since before Christ, if the stories are to be accepted and I have no

doubt, that although I am not religious, insults were not invented

yesterday then one has ones head, plonked firmly in the sand.

What you call behaving badly may be just a child crying in the park and

upsetting the calm of thew place, others may say it is yobs swearing,

some may just think that everything is unacceptable. In all walks of

life there are the goodies and baddies and most people like to

pigeon hole themselves in the goodie category. Me, well I like to think

I can accept most things in life, not all of course not and in the

realm of it all, with  terrible deaths from floods, famines,

Tsunamis and the 101 things that are truly horrible, I look and accept

a lot of living in the 21st century. Sport gives the world more hope,

more excitement than probably anything else bar perhaps, the pop

industry.

So some sportsman cuss and swear, it is and always has been, an

integral part of it, OK it doesn't make the World a better place, what

does, do I, do you, does anyone. We try our best I'm sure but, none of

us give a millionth of the excitement and joy that these sportsman do

and just singling out some for not adorning the world with wonderful

prose will therefore make the world a worse place makes me sad for

folks, who only see the parts they dislike and not the great humour,

the thrill, the camraderie, the wnat to excel and sure if it means

occasional cursing, occasional fouling etc and crossing the supposed

acceptable line, that some people have drawn, then so be it, billions

worldwide love sport, for all it's wrongs, it has many more thousand

rights.

[quote] and was therefore interested to have it confirmed that not only

apparently is this the "norm" but that it is widely reckoned to be OK.[/quote]

Don't let facts get in the way eh Chris, care to back that all up and without the aid of a red top or two !

All this talk of a better world, is this a crusade you are on ? Let's

be honest here, take away Sport and what would billions of folks have

then ? Or will you allow them sport only if they pledge to be goodies

only, no swearing, no shirt tugging, no...well no nothing really just a

Utopian vision which has never been there...EVER.

[chris pp]

I think, to cut out all the unnecessary bits, it's the justification of insults, personal abuse and so on, by saying that it brings enjoyment to millions of people, without accepting that it is less than a good example for all the younger people that watch and read about it. Actually, I would say that it was a failure on the part of the people participating to behave like responsible adults. Of course, I know that the answer to that, is that they are not.

But lets not justify it and go down the road of  "well, the worlds like that and that we as individuals can't improve things"

Chris.

 

[KathyC]

1. Hoddy's thread

Yes I agree, you don't insult a woman by insulting her man or male relatives. I think that putting women on pillars comes into it somewhere, also the contrast between promiscuity being sluttishness in women and studdishness (?!) in men. Can you imagine  trying to insult a woman by saying " your father had a lot on the side!"?

2. Miki and Chris' thread

When professionalism came in the door, sport went out the window. Can you imagine someone writing Stephen Potter's " Gamesmanship" now? Or anyone below the age of 30 finding it funny? On the other hand, the more we take this behaviour in sport to be normal or accept it, the more we condone and encourage it. Sometimes one has to both accept reality and at the same time try to challenge unacceptable behaviour if things are not to become even worse.

[Chris Head]

The method and nature of insults has to be as varied as class and culture is in this world. The Italian knew that to insult Zizous mother would get to him, it was the action of a sportsman at the top of his game and not achieving what he wanted to...not right but as Miki says it's just a part of sport. Sport is just vital to our children and to the world, it teaches all sorts of things. This world we live in is a competetive one, you have to fight hard to get anywhere and it all starts by learning how to compete, how to win and how to lose and how to pick yourself up again and try that bit harder when stuff doesn't go quite right. And the better you get and fitter you are the more you need to win and the higher the stakes get.   Sport also taught me about  excelling and that you have to work really hard to get there (if ever one does) and tomorrow I'll give 110% and I hope to win, if I don't I'll learn from it and win the day after. And if it all gets too much I'll be aiming some well chosen insults at various inanimate objects and then opening the Chablis!

Chris

[Miki]

[quote] But lets not justify it and go down the road of  "well,

the worlds like that and that we as individuals can't improve

things"[/quote]

But you are trying to make it appear so deadly and so infinitely

terrible. I used to have older players try to take my knees of in the

lmid late 60's, through in to the 70's, question me about my parents

marriage certificate and all kinds of phrases to get me to bite. We had

lessons even then, on how to avoid taking it all in and to simply

ignore it and have NO doubt all, Master Rooney will be given many

lessons in self management against anger and taking revenge but in the heat of the battle, red mist can descend on what appears to be the mildest of men (à la Zidane).

No one is going down such a road, I like to think  that I walk

down the reality road and that dreaming is more harmful than accepting

that not everyone in this world is perfect and I say  once again,

what about if Sport was taken away from life, if more poeple with your

attitude want to ban it because of what they see as not right for us

all ?

Kathy, it is not just because Sport went Professional, sport has been

about even longer than our eldest Forum member (whoever that may be !)

and my Father, Uncles and Brother in laws used to tell me stories of

their days in Amateur sport and what skulduggery & trickery went on

!

It is not about condoning it, UEFA, FIFA and the FA take severe steps

to try and keep soccer on an even keel. every now and again we get

something like this Zidane affair, where mountains will be made of mole

hills. It is the  way it has always been. Drugs in athletics came

as a shock, we all thought that only the Russian ladies were taking

steroids and we were proved correct...shock horror  we have now

had 100 metre champions (and others !!) bening banned for drug taking.

We don't condone it, we accept it happens and we hope that thye will be

caught. The same for 99% of sports. There are administarative bodies

that do their best to regulate the sport and the journalists do their

best to inflame little stories in to horror stories thus more papers

get sold and folks talk eagerley of the new, shock horror

story....oldest trick in the book eh ?!!

 

[Miki]

[quote user="Chris Head"]

The method and nature of insults has to be

as varied as class and culture is in this world. The Italian knew that

to insult Zizous mother would get to him, it was the action of a

sportsman at the top of his game and not achieving what he wanted

to...not right but as Miki says it's just a part of sport. Sport is

just vital to our children and to the world, it teaches all sorts

of things. This world we live in is a competetive one, you have to

fight hard to get anywhere and it all starts by learning how

to compete, how to win and how to lose and how to pick yourself up

again and try that bit harder when stuff doesn't go quite right. And

the better you get and fitter you are the more you need to win and the higher the stakes get.   Sport also taught me about  excelling and that you have to work really

hard to get there (if ever one does) and tomorrow I'll give

110% and I hope to win, if I don't I'll learn from it and win the

day after. And if it all gets too much I'll be aiming some well chosen

insults at various inanimate objects and then opening the Chablis!

Chris [/quote]

[:D] [:D][:D]

Nice one Chris and bang on the button. I used to curse any time I

was last in the training lap and had to do extra press ups, soon

learned to do better and the tricks required not to come last, were

handed down to me by the older lads ! Win or lose, went in the bar

afterwards for a pint though and have no fears, as you will know, the

best part is that most of the time, those you see cursing and tugging

shirts or whatever will all be in the bar afterwards, pressure now

off,  discussing the game and all having a chat mixed with

friendly banter..Gazzer to name but one well known soccer chap, has

always said, the worse part of retiring is losing the after match

banter and the involvement in the game. What most folks see is the

game, with all its warts and all and very few will see a lot of the

reality afterwards.

We read about venom in the papers of Ronaldo, now we hear that

Rooney is not blaming him at all. He knows he was wrong and is

taking it on the chin, as he should do. You can bet when two fine young

pros like those two get together, they will share a drink and have a

grin, if not now, cetainly at sometime in the future.

[chris pp]

Let's get this straight, I never wrote anything about banning sport, read my words!

Secondly, lot's of things happened in the 60's, 70's, 80's in fact in the past, that are no longer acceptable to society as a whole, insults, racial or any other type of abuse are not OK in my book whoever is using it and for whatever reason.

I think that I have made my position clear.

Chris

[Miki]

[quote] Let's get this straight, I never wrote anything about banning sport, read my words![/quote]

Oh I read them alright............... and wept !! Read my text, no one

said you did . Mine was just an example that if people like you go

moaning and groaning constantly about what happens in sport, what did

you

think would happen if it was banned to make people like you happy !

[quote] Secondly, lot's of things happened in the 60's, 70's, 80's in fact in

the past, that are no longer acceptable to society as a whole, insults,

racial or any other type of abuse are not OK in my book whoever is

using it and for whatever reason.[/quote]

So now we get the illogical response ! It's totally ridiculous to use

what has happened recently to say things are not acceptable. Sorry but

you are proving yourself tobe some kind of  a perfectionist and

that is impossible to achieve. All it does, is give the World grumpy

folks who just want it all to be so, so. Sport has moved on since the

60's in racism and by your own admission you know sweet FA on the sport

score but as ever, that won't stop some folks from giving an opinion

about something they really haven't got a clue about. . Insults !

Jeepers, even today after decades, Mums are still telling kids about

sticks and stones may etc ets, As Chris H has said, it is not a perfect

World we have to compete in whatever we do and with that, it brings

hard competition, take that away and we are left with a rather drab

world, no doubt you may prefer that. Because for sure, where stress and

competition is found, all manner of ways to gain an advantage will be

used, some a little more hard to accept than others but I say to you,

you know nothing of the world of Sport and how quickly all is forgotten

after the "whistle blows" and the after match banter....but still, you

can see all you want by reading the jolly old tabloids !

I have little or no time for people who dream of what should be.. I am

a realist, I detest  racism, I don't like unnecessary swearing but

I know these things happen, I don't condone it all,  simply

because I realise it happens every day in every town, village and

country in the World but I have to rely on the authorities to deal with

it and in the mean time I shall enjoy Sport, including all it throws at

me and again, that is not condoning it, it is simply being real. I

suggest you take a course in accepting the World will never be the

perfect object you think it should be and get on and make the best of

what is available.

Placing yourself to be the high and mighty Mr Good Guy by just trying

to make those sportsman out to be the centre of the Worlds racial and

other problems is totally wrong. I'll say it again, as it has not got

through. The pro sportsmen  of this World give hope and joy to

billions of people, they are not perfect human beings, as you intimate

you are and how they come across does not always please the purists of

this World but in many cases, they are giving 110% and in that put

their bodies through hardship and yes, they may say things they regret

later but my estimate is that 99% of any insults are motivated only by

their hope to gain any advantage possible. Can I respectfully suggest

you keep  away from Sport and enjoy life away from all those

terrible specimens ! For my part, I have found far, far more genuine

friends through Sport (mainly football) than through any other manner.

[Just Katie]

Hoddy, you are quite right, the insult thing does not usually go on between women.  You see male friends bantering each other so close the the bone.  If two women ever went that close they would soon be called b itches.  Most couldnt take it off one another anyway.

You see men on the rugby pitch.  Can you imagine as a woman running with a ball and another one comes and slams you in the face which is part of the game.  Most woman would either totally lose her head or run in the changing rooms crying and refuse to come out.

Some of our local games (which I never attend by the way) turn into free for all wrestling matches.  I say to my husband "Why to they do that"?  He says in his Welsh accent "Great Mun, Gets all the aggresiveness out of ewe."  Then I ask if they fight in the changing rooms later and he says "Eff Off,  We all go in ere an sing"

 

[chris pp]

Thanks for taking the time to formulate your lengthy reply Miki, but as I wrote, I think that I have made my position clear.

Just my point of view, Chris

 

[TWINKLE]

[quote user="KatieKopyKat"]

 "Eff Off,  We all go in ere an sing"

 

[/quote]

And offer to scrub each others backs[;-)]

 Yeah, I remember that rugby club!

[Miki]

[quote]Some of our local games (which I never attend by the way)

turn into free for all wrestling matches.  I say to my husband

"Why to they do that"?  He says in his Welsh accent "Great Mun,

Gets all the aggresiveness out of ewe."  Then I ask if they fight

in the changing rooms later and he says "Eff Off,  We all go in

ere an sing" [/quote]

[:D] [:D] [:D]

And transfer that kind of thing to the Pro game Katie and there you

have it. We always used to say and I'm pretty sure your husband would know the same

saying "What happens on the pitch stays on the pitch" and then all have a

good banter in the bar.

Sorry Chris I know you have said what you have but I am really

mystified that you cannot see it as it really is and somehow think that

blasphemy and racism are what sports are all about ! Ah well, none so

deaf as them that can't see..........................

 

[Hoddy]

KKK wrote,

Hoddy, you are quite right, the insult thing does not usually go on between women.  "

That is not at all what I was saying.

I intended this thread to be a discussion about language and not about sport. It's now just a continuation of the Justice thread.

Good job I put it in the Lounge.

Hoddy

[Tresco]

Hoddy, there has to be a link to Catholicism somewhere. Another poster touched on this - the mother-worship thing

I bet the more 'Protestant' countries footballers don't go in for all this mother insulting business.

 

[KathyC]

[quote user="Hoddy"]KKK wrote, Hoddy, you are quite right, the insult thing does not usually go on between women.  " That is not at all what I was saying. I intended this thread to be a discussion about language and not about sport. It's now just a continuation of the Justice thread. Good job I put it in the Lounge. Hoddy[/quote]

Well I tried to join in your part of the discussion, Hoddy, but it looks like I'm invisible again.

[Hoddy]

I'm sorry KathyC - and thanks for trying to respond. I just feel it's all got lost now. Maybe I'll try another day.

Hoddy