Big Brother

[Unknown]

[quote user="catalpa"][quote user="Patmobile"]Actually, I meant that perhaps the pupils themselves, and their parents, regard the qualifications as having little worth. That's why they all want to be "celebrities" rather than pass any exams at school, or go into higher education.  This is how you get the underclass - ultimately, they are not convinced the schools can offer them anything useful, - and the responsibility for that rests with.....?
[/quote]

with the...  presently popular belief that fame and money should be handed to you without you having to do anything difficult - such as study for (and worry about) exams, exist on a shoestring while you get your degree, work your way up in a company or trade by starting in a junior post, working long hours and studying. Working hard to achieve an ambition - as opposed to appearing on a reality tv show or going out with a footballer - is not respected by a sizeable slice of the British population. And I do not believe that is anything to do with the teaching profession. It probably does have something to do with parental role models and attitudes.
[/quote]

What about the folk that inherit huge somes of money for not having ever done anything to earn it and then turn into playboys/girls.  Perhaps we should look at Jade a bit more closely.  She has had an awful upbringing, yes become famous for being loud and brash, but she has stayed in the public eye as she has a marketable quality.  Whether you like it or not she is now very successful.  How many footballers, pop stars, flim actors, talented people etc have become famous and then just disappeared into thin air, along with their fortunes.

[Unknown]

[quote user="beryl"]

[quote user="Patmobile"]
I give you the young Jade Goody and a multitude like her.  You are a teacher - this is your challenge, to turn this material into something better.

Patrick
[/quote]

But teachers are fighting against everything else! Sure one teacher may  for a variety of reasons be able to reach a particular child and inspire them but for every teacher that the child meets to do this is unrealistic and it is not anyones fault.

Moreover, very often teachers standards and moral codes are very high, the background that the child comes from may not be, this teachers have to tread very carefully.

[/quote]

Why is it a teachers job to bring up todays society, surely its the parents job.  Perhaps if kids were taught right from wrong it would make learning and teaching a whole lot easier. 

I think potential parents should be vetted before any idea of having kids. [:D]

[Russethouse]

Isn't the truth more that Jade Goody managed to almost entirely escape education, either physically or mentally. I believe that after her mother lost an arm in a motorbike accident, Jade had to help with the day to day to day running of the home quite a bit, I think she was 8 years old (but I could be wrong) when that situation occurred. She may not be academically bright but she possesses what I think they call 'native craft/wit'

If she had continued on the path she had been, making a good living out of little talent and either a good agent or a lot of nerve, I may have said well done, good luck to her, but when I watched that argument on BB I felt totally ashamed of her, the thought that anyone should judge British young people by that example is abhorrent.

The other two girls are just as bad, they should have intervened, surely one of them knew better ?

OK, the Bollywood actress may have her own agenda, but at least she maintained a level of decorum, and as my son says 'she is totally gorgeous' ! [:)]

 

[Zak Dingle]

"The balance of our population, our human stock is threatened. A recent article in Poverty,

published by the Child Poverty Action Group, showed that a high and

rising proportion of children are being born to mothers least fitted to

bring children into the world and bring them up. They are born to

mother who were first pregnant in adolescence in social classes 4 and

5. Many of these girls are unmarried, many are deserted or divorced or

soon will be. Some are of low intelligence, most of low educational

attainment. They are unlikely to be able to give children the stable

emotional background, the consistent combination of love and firmness

which are more important than riches. They are producing problem

children, the future unmarried mothers, delinquents, denizens of our

borstals, sub-normal educational establishments, prisons, hostels for

drifters. Yet these mothers, the under-twenties in many cases, single

parents, from classes 4 and 5, are now producing a third of all births.

A high proportion of these births are a tragedy for the mother, the

child and for us.

Yet what shall we do? If we do nothing, the nation moves towards

degeneration, however much resources we pour into preventative work and

the over-burdened educational system. It is

all the more serious when we think of the loss of people with talent

and initiative through emigration as our semi-socialism deprives them

of adequate opportunities, rewards and satisfactions.

Yet proposals to extend birth-control facilities to these

classes of people, particularly the young unmarried girls, the

potential young unmarried mothers, evokes entirely understandable moral

opposition. Is it not condoning immorality? I suppose it is. But which

is the lesser evil, until we are able to remoralise whole groups and

classes of people, undoing the harm done when already weak restraints

on strong instincts are further weakened by permissiveness in

television, in films, on bookstalls ?"

SPEECH BY THE RT. HON. SIR KEITH JOSEPH BT MP (LEEDS NE)

CONSERVATIVE SPOKESMAN ON HOME AFFAIRS, SPEAKING AT THE

GRAND HOTEL, BIRMINGHAM ON SATURDAY 19 OCTOBER 1974.

Is Ms Goody proof that he was right?

best regards

Zak

[Just Katie]

[quote user="Dick Smith"]The sad thing, really sad, is that the managing director of the UK section of the production company, Endemol, is the grandson of Joseph Bazelguette, the engineering genius who designed and oversaw the building of the London sewer system, so the grandfather dedicated his life to removing as much ordure as possible from our lives and his grandson is striving to put it back again.
[/quote]

Mr Bazelguette did not  remove the ordure Dick, he simply flushed it down to the working classes in the East End.[Www]

[Cassis]

So the grandson carries on a family tradition?

[Catalpa]

[quote user="Dotty "]

[quote user="catalpa"][quote user="Patmobile"]This is how you get the underclass - ultimately, they are not convinced the schools can offer them anything useful, - and the responsibility for that rests with.....?

[/quote]

with the...  presently popular belief that fame and money should be handed to you without you having to do anything difficult -

[/quote]

What about the folk that inherit huge somes of money for not having ever done anything to earn it and then turn into playboys/girls. 

[/quote]

I'm not sure that's relevant here. [8-)] They’re not the disadvantaged that (perhaps unfairly though I

don’t think so) we appear to be saying Jade represents.

True, the "rich kids" may not have

done anything to earn their money but they have benefitted from their

birth to rich

and / or successful parents. The area of popular culture under the

spotlight

here is represented by Jade, not Paris Hilton. (Or her internet movies.

[:-))]) Paris

Hilton is unlikely to be down to her last dollar when she’s 50. I don’t have

the same expectation for Jade.

[Just Katie]

[quote user="Cassis"]So the grandson carries on a family tradition?
[/quote]

Exactly Cassis.

My dad was from the East End.  Big Bruvvers kool.

Anyway, the discussion is whether the abuse was racist.  Personally I do not think it was (shall I duck now)?  I think the three girls involved have an obvious jealousy for the beautiful, successful actress.  Their bullying is very purile.  This sort of behaviour is very common amongst adolescent girls when another seemingly more 'superior' girl is on the scene.  Shipla unfortunately inadvertently stirred their insecurities and off they go.

OK, they mimicked her accent, again I think this was juvenile bitchiness and in their ignorance did not have the sense to foresee this could come across as being racist.  I blame big brother as this should have been nipped in the bud before it came to this.  But then again these events have boosted  viewings so why should they protect these unintelligent young girls?

[Dick Smith]

Zak - yes, Jade is a prime example of what Mad Lord Snapcase was on about - but unfortunately he wasn't very grounded in the real world and made it sound like he was proposing a eugenics programme, whereas he could have played the argument much more cleverly. All the numbers tell us the same story, and we would be able to do a great deal more with kids if less of them were so badly damaged by their upbringing and if we weren't dealing with their effects on the kids who actively want to learn.

The present government has tried - with Sure Start and other programmes - to counteract this disadvantage, but simply get derided for their efforts, usually by the same people who claim to see falling standards.

Pat - I see you have shifted ground somewhat, you are no longer condemning a whole profession, but just an unspecified percentage of that profession. However, I'm still looking to see some evidence for what you say. But I don't want to push it to the point where it is an argument.

And just how weak are the men in the house? I hadn't watched any of it this time (I watched the last one and promised that this time I wouldn't) until the Big Row, so I may have missed something - but what are they like? Complete wimps.

[Unknown]

[quote user="catalpa"][quote user="Dotty "]

[quote user="catalpa"][quote user="Patmobile"]This is how you get the underclass - ultimately, they are not convinced the schools can offer them anything useful, - and the responsibility for that rests with.....?
[/quote]

with the...  presently popular belief that fame and money should be handed to you without you having to do anything difficult -
[/quote]

What about the folk that inherit huge somes of money for not having ever done anything to earn it and then turn into playboys/girls. 

[/quote]
<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]-->I'm not sure that's relevant here. [8-)] They’re not the disadvantaged that (perhaps unfairly though I don’t think so) we appear to be saying Jade represents. True, the "rich kids" may not have done anything to earn their money but they have benefitted from their birth to rich and / or successful parents. The area of popular culture under the spotlight here is represented by Jade, not Paris Hilton. (Or her internet movies. [:-))]) Paris Hilton is unlikely to be down to her last dollar when she’s 50. I don’t have the same expectation for Jade. [/quote]

I don't think it necessary either, but you are the one that brought it up.

But to add to it, I know quite a few 'rich kids' that behave far worse than Miss Goody.  Believe me far worse.

And who exactly is putting Jade under the spotlight and using her to represent the popular culture of today?  The likes of you.  Do you also believe all French people eat frogs legs?  Come on if folk really believe the masses in UK are just like Jade, then what is the world coming to.

[Unknown]

[quote user="Just Katie "]

[quote user="Cassis"]So the grandson carries on a family tradition?
[/quote]

Exactly Cassis.

My dad was from the East End.  Big Bruvvers kool.

Anyway, the discussion is whether the abuse was racist.  Personally I do not think it was (shall I duck now)?  I think the three girls involved have an obvious jealousy for the beautiful, successful actress.  Their bullying is very purile.  This sort of behaviour is very common amongst adolescent girls when another seemingly more 'superior' girl is on the scene.  Shipla unfortunately inadvertently stirred their insecurities and off they go.

OK, they mimicked her accent, again I think this was juvenile bitchiness and in their ignorance did not have the sense to foresee this could come across as being racist.  I blame big brother as this should have been nipped in the bud before it came to this.  But then again these events have boosted  viewings so why should they protect these unintelligent young girls?

[/quote]

Thank you Katie, are you after a mod job?

I don't think she was being racist either.  I don't know if any of you know, but her Dad is black, she said on the programme that she is a half cast.

If someone Irish or Scotish or even Welsh had been on BB and someone had mimicked their accent, would that be racist?  Of course it wouldn't.  When Jade told Shilpa to go home, didn't she just mean home? 

There seems to be any excuse to create some kind of racial tension in Britain.  I watched the show and whilst watching it I thought God Jade shut up.  I hoped one of the other two girls would have intervened or walked away.  If you had watched the whole argument and the days leading up to it then maybe you would understand why Jade was so annoyed with Shilpa.  But for most, you probably haven't.  As I was saying whilst watching the argument unfold I did not feel there was any racial tension going on, it was only when I read the news the next day it came to light.  Goodness me I thought, aren't there more important things to be made up in the world.

 

 

[Russethouse]

But isn't that yet another reflection of UK society ? If you are not VERY careful a lot of things can be made to look racist whether or not that was the original intention.

[Just Katie]

Yes Gay, I agree, one must be VERY careful.  I think all this is a shame.  I am very interested in different cultures but  we must take care it could be interpretated as judging.  In fact, I think I will move off the subject now incase I get misjudged.

Dotty, very often I have my accent mimicked.  Although it has never been done in a nasty way, it does make me cringe (unless it is a good impression).[:D]

[hastobe]

[quote user="Pierre ZFP"]Ahhhh at last I know who this Jade Goody is that people have been talking about!!  Never seen BB or similar 'Reality' (Ha!) shows and don't want to.  OK now I know who she is, what is she? actress? singer? or what?[/quote]

She is an ignorant, uneducated, inarticulate lout - and heaven only knows why she is admired enough (in certain sectors) to have become as famous as she is.  It clearly shows some people have no aspirations - or personal pride.  She's an embarrassment.

A quotation from Ghandi springs to mind - 'It has always been a mystery to me how men can feel themselves

honoured by the humiliation of their fellow beings.' - which about sums up Ms Goody.

Kathie

[Just Katie]

Hi Kathie,

I really must say I feel sorry for her.  Her mother appeared on the show and was tenfold more appalling than her daughter.  This girl has never been taught manners or how to behave.  Probably when she attended school she had lots of side kicks because of her ways and has not moved on from her 'comfort zone' which will probably carry her through life.  And yes, unfortunately there are many characters like this amongst us raising children who will become replicas of their parents.[:(]

I was upset not so long ago when a three year old toddler stepped out onto the road and the mother screamed "Get off the road you stupid effing C".  Heartbreaking.

[Teamedup]

[quote user="Just Katie "]

Yes Gay, I agree, one must be VERY careful.  I think all this is a shame.  I am very interested in different cultures but  we must take care it could be interpretated as judging.  In fact, I think I will move off the subject now incase I get misjudged.

Dotty, very often I have my accent mimicked.  Although it has never been done in a nasty way, it does make me cringe (unless it is a good impression).[:D]

[/quote]

 

With you there JK, I regularly have my accent mimicked. Is that racist. 

[hastobe]

For me it has nothing to do with racism - simply respect for your fellow human being.

I hear what you are saying about parental influences Katie - but why oh why have people made a celebrity of her???  She is hardly someone to aspire to.  Its almost an inverted sense of pride some people seem to have in being an ignorant ***.

Kathie

[hastobe]

[quote user="Dotty "]

Come on if folk really believe the masses in UK are just like Jade, then what is the world coming to.

[/quote]

Sadly Dotty (well certainly where I live) an awful lot are...

Kathie

[Just Katie]

Yes Kathie, I totally agree with you in questioning her celebrity status.  I cannot for the life of me understand it.  She even has her own brand of perfume.  Wear it with pride[:-))].

TU, I dont see mimicking my accent as racist, just cringy.  What accent do you have?

[Catalpa]

[quote user="Dotty "]

I don't think it necessary either, but you are the one that brought it up.

[/quote]

Having re-read my posts, I can't see where I bought up the subject of inheritance and playboys / girls  so you've lost me there. But you can be content in the knowledge I'm happy to remain lost.

[quote user="Dotty "]

And who exactly is putting Jade under the spotlight and using her to represent the popular culture of today?  The likes of you. 

[/quote]

Perhaps the likes of "us"? [:P] Even my overweening ego won't let me take the credit [:-))] for The Fame of Jade Goody. But I'm sure you didn't direct the "you" personally at me.

I don't understand why anyone would participate in something like BB... other than for a fee and the chance to re-activate a flagging or even plain dead public career (CBB) or to start that "career" with the ultimate goal of a big fat fee from Hello. Hmm. Maybe I do understand after all.

[hastobe]

[quote user="Dick Smith"]

And just how weak are the men in the house? I hadn't watched any of it this time (I watched the last one and promised that this time I wouldn't) until the Big Row, so I may have missed something - but what are they like? Complete wimps.

[/quote]

Exactly - no one (with the exception of, perhaps, Jermaine Jackson) seems to have said anything.  Too many people nowadays seem to be happy to be bystanders.....

Kathie

[Teamedup]

[quote user="Just Katie "]

Yes Kathie, I totally agree with you in questioning her celebrity status.  I cannot for the life of me understand it.  She even has her own brand of perfume.  Wear it with pride[:-))].

TU, I dont see mimicking my accent as racist, just cringy.  What accent do you have?

[/quote]

 

I have my english accent when I speak french. Some people can mimick me very well, others and I cringe too and find it very insulting.

We were on holiday once and we were sat next to some people from Dorset. I said, I thought they were as she had the same accent as a friend of mine. Shock horror from the woman........ she assured me that 'she' didn't have an accent, but it was just so funny, me with my north eastern accent, I just told her that 'accents' were not exclusively from 'the north' and I couldn't keep a straight face whilst I said it. As yet no one has 'mocked' my north eastern accent, well, I do sometimes.

[TWINKLE]

I will be curious to hear what the Indian actress has to say about how she was treated when she comes OUT of the house.

Just 'cos' you had a hard childhood doesn't make it acceptable to be vulgar, loudmouthed and verbally abusive.  We all know the difference between good and bad, right and wrong.  We choose how we want to comport ourselves.  Nobody MAKES us bad - I just simply refuse to believe this.  Too easy!

[Just Katie]

That is right Twinx, having a hard childhood has nothing to do with it.  However, when you have parents that are equally as abusive and vulgar, the child, who has never been taught manners or social skills will often grow up as a replica.  When in their teens, they could go one way or the other depending on the friends they choose.  I believe Jade chose friends similar to herself which gave her little scope to develop social skills denied to her in her childhood.

 

[Unknown]

[quote user="hastobe"][quote user="Dick Smith"]
And just how weak are the men in the house? I hadn't watched any of it this time (I watched the last one and promised that this time I wouldn't) until the Big Row, so I may have missed something - but what are they like? Complete wimps.
[/quote]

Exactly - no one (with the exception of, perhaps, Jermaine Jackson) seems to have said anything.  Too many people nowadays seem to be happy to be bystanders.....

Kathie
[/quote]

Apart from calling Jade and her Mum white trash, oh but tht seems to have been overlooked.