Kitchen size

[mint]

How big is yours?  How important is it to you to have a big one?  No rude answers, please!

I have a serious intent to my question and I thought I'd take a quick straw poll amongst Forum Members to get a general feel of what people like.

We are in the final decision stages about a property here in France.  The property does not have a large kitchen but I'm not too worried about that as there is a dining room right next door.  OH, however, tells me (in his masculine way and as though he spends other than minimum time in the kitchen) that "most women" prefer a big kitchen and therefore it might be a minus point should we wish to sell the house at a later date (mind you, we haven't bought it yet..........which is the point for this post!)

We did not have a big kitchen in our last house in the UK but I must admit that I have now been converted to a big kitchen since I have lived in France.  This is because the kitchen is a good place to which to direct visitors, particularly if they are the French neighbours who are none too clean and are not particular about wiping their feet.  Of course, it is also often the warmest place in the house as I have a bois-charbon oven in there which is kept on from morning till late at night.

On the other hand, I don't use the kitchen for eating in when I have people to lunch or dinner because I don't really like to eat amongst pots and pans and the detritus of meal-preparation.

So, please tell me what you personally like and I will have a good idea as to whether a big kitchen is an essential must-have or just a would-like-to-have?

As an aside, I HATE buying houses:  they cost so much and you are always worried about making the wrong choice.

[Quillan]

We have what we called a galley kitchen in the UK except its wider and longer (4M x 10M) which is great because it has loads of workspace for prepping and plating up. I don't know if I would want one quite so big if it were not for being a B&B, I wouldn't need so much equipment (2 hobs, 2 ovens, 2 dishwashers, big fridge). Like you we don't eat in the kitchen but when we have a party people seem to congregate there for some reason as do friends when they pop in. I have always fancied a square kitchen with a prep area in the centre but then you need decent units and worktops which would make it very expensive I guess.

The other issues is what do you keep in the kitchen, plates etc or are they kept somewhere else? You can make a very small kitchen if you want with a fridge, oven, hop, sink and a bit of workspace in an area not much bigger than 3M x 3M. Its quit practical being in a 'horseshoe' shape, you hardly have to move to get to all the different bits, quite a popular layout on UK canal boats.

At the end of the day from what you said about the OH perhaps you should pick what you would want.

[mint]

Q, thank you for your considered reply.

I do have a biggish kitchen with a 6-seater table in the middle which I use to prep vegetables, roll out pastry, spread out French books for doing homework, give tea, coffee, light snacks, etc to visiters.

It's a space that I have been getting used to but the kitchen surfaces themselves are inadequate and that's why I use the table for practically every cooking and non-cooking task.

But, Q, do you think that "most women" really want a big kitchen or do you think that, provided there is eating space close to the kitchen, many wouldn't set too much store by a large kitchen?

I do think, though, that eating in the kitchen has a more "informal" feel but, on the other hand, I think that if you have, for example, a conservatory, you can get that informal feeling by eating in there.

What are your thoughts on this?

I don't want to buy a house that have too many minus points when it comes to a re-sale.

[Chancer]

My one here is only 3m by 2.5m and includes a dining table, admittedly against the wall and only accessible for 2 people unless it is taken into the salon, fitted kitchen with oven hob and fridge freezer, corner turn worktop with bar table above and tabourets the other side for aperos, the kitchen area is also the main entrance and cloakroom. 

It is spacious and airy and could in fact be reduced to 2m from 2.5m but would then be a bit narrow and difficult to pass other people standing there.

My one in the UK whilst following a similar layout is much smaller and doesnt have the dining table or oven although I have a microwave/convector oven.

If you have a buffet in the salon and if you use that room when sitting down to eat for a formal meal then IMO a kitchen need not be any bigger, most around me are of a similar size and are viewed as a room to prepare the food before the important business of eating not as some sort of trophy.

[mint]

So pleased to have your thoughts on this, Chancer.

Thinking about it, I prefer to prepare food when no one is about to distract me, so I don't think I really need a big kitchen.

I wish a woman would come on and say what she thinks as OH seems to have this idea that he knows what "women" generally want in their kitchen and I would love to prove him wrong?

Clearly, you'd understand that he doesn't think I'm a "normal" woman who thinks the same thoughts as other women! [+o(]

[Cat]

Mine's big enough to have a workable fridge-cooker-sink triangle, and a table for us to eat at that doesn't intrude into the triangle. 

We also have a dining room, but only eat there if we're entertaining on a lavish scale [:)]

I can manage in a tiny kitchen (and in another life used to frequently rustle up meals for 6 in the tiny galley kitchen of a boat), but I do love to cook, and for me a large, well planned, kitchen with plenty of workspace and a table to eat at is very important.

It's the heart of the home.

[mint]

Cat says:  It's the heart of the home.

I think then, that you basically agree with my OH.  He doesn't say it in your words (he's just a man after all) but I believe that that's what's behind what he wants to say about having a big kitchen as a selling point.

He is an architect albeit retired and I guess it's all those rich, spoilt women he designed kitchens for that's shaped his conviction about large kitchens being preferred by women.

So, another area where whoever advances the best arguments wins the day then.

[Chancer]

[quote user="sweet 17"]

I wish a woman would come on and say what she thinks as OH seems to have this idea that he knows what "women" generally want in their kitchen and I would love to prove him wrong?

[/quote]

Well from the well heeled UK buyers perspective I can tell you what 99.99% of my customers wanted as they all semed to have identical kitchens.

The first thing after buying their house was to build an extension no smaller than the existing ground floor surface area (including existing kitchen which might become a study or games room) to house the new trophy kitchen,  this had to be fitted out in a very distinct manner, oak units, granite worktops, oak parquet floor, stainless steel appliances including wine cooler, big stainless/glass hanging extractor and a cast iron lattice work cookbook holder with a Jamie Oliver cookbook artfully on display the page opened at the most exotic recipe.

Judging by the wine and champagne bottles and caterers detritus they did a lot of entertaining but very little  cooking [:D]

[WJT]

Sweet, I wouldn't worry too much and do what you want, I think everyone is different and that includes us women. [:D] I also was in a quandary about what to do with

our kitchen, I went as far as taking a poll.[:)]

My problem was deciding

about taking a wall down in our kitchen and making it open plan. The results of

the poll were 50/50 and very strong feelings on both sides. In the end I opted

for an open kitchen because I do like being able to talk to guests and like a

bigger airy kitchen, it also made the rest of the room lighter because of a

window at the end of the kitchen. Having said what my preference is, Sweet

perhaps you have already answered yourself in saying you like to be away and

separate from your guests when preparing food.

My dream kitchen would be

a large beautiful separate French kitchen but having weighed up everything with

our house this was the big compromise I made. If you are unhappy with the size,

is it possible to take down the wall between the kitchen and dining room to open

it up?

[mint]

Ah, thanks for coming back, Chancer.  I, too, have been to a lot of "state of the art" kitchens where the hostess clearly does not have a clue about cooking.  In fact, I couldn't help but take over the cooking on a couple of occasions!  Just couldn't help myself and at least everyone got fed!

WJT, I value your contribution.  And no, I don't really want to take any walls down as I quite like separate spaces:  for cooking, for making music, for watching the TV, for being quiet.

So, I think I shall be quite happy in my new kitchen and I will market it (if that eventuality happens) by saying as per Sarah Beeney "Look, you can take down this wall and have a big space for cooking and entertaining!"

[WJT]

Perfect!  That should make your husband very happy as well.[:D]

[Lou]

Think of it this way Sweet, if YOU buy the house and are happy with the kitchen, there's a good chance that you will find someone else when/if you resell who also likes the kitchen.

You can't please all of the people all of the time - ok, so maybe some people would be put off by the lack of a big kitchen but equally there will be some who will prefer a separate space for dining as you do.

On a personal level, we have a large kitchen/dining room which I do like, but if I liked everything else about a house I don't think a small kitchen would be a deal breaker.

Lou

[mint]

Like your thinking, Lou, and I think you have it spot on. 

If only the person selling it will come back and accept the offer!  Nevermind, there will always be another property in another place.

I just feel resigned to whatever happens.

What's important to one person might not be to another so it's best to choose what's best for yourself and then whatever will be will be.

Thank you, everybody.  Thinking now clarified and waiting for the reply from the would-be seller....

[Stan Streason]

Both in UK and in France our kitchen is about 2.5 times what may be normal.  Both are big enough to cook and eat well away from each other and both have 8 seater tables so for the majority of the normal day they are the focus of the house.

I think a big kitchen is not necessary to sell a house but a house with a surprisingly big kitchen can be the difference between similar sized houses.  For example having a bigger lounge or bigger bedrooms wont have as much of a positive effect as having a bigger kitchen.

[mint]

Hm...........yes, SS, I follow your reasoning.

Will now stick out for the price I have offered to pay and, for the reason you have stated, will accept that we will perhaps not get such a good price in the future on selling.  Unless, of course, we can sell the "can extend" clause to the kitchen!

All well argued perspectives so far and so I will keep looking forward to people's ideas.........

Thank you, everybody!

[Chancer]

I still reckon the kitchen being the heart of the house is a UK perspective where families dont sit around the table to eat together or to do homework., but times and fashions change who knows what the future holds.

Sweet17 I assume from your language skills that as and when you do sell you will not be restricting yourself to the UK market. Your husband being an architect may work really well for you when you come to sell.

One of my favorite programs is question maison, despite featuring lots of minimalist great for TV but crap to live in (à la changing rooms) homes the bit I like is when their architect visits homeowners who want to remodel, I have never yet seen anyone ask for a bigger kitchen but all seem to value a salon that they can entertain in followed by a study and adequate bedrooms and storage space, but as I said that may be changing.

Anyway you could find out what les inconvenients may be for potential purchasers and your husband, being respected as a proffesional and hence believed (not like an estate agent) could sketch out how your house could easily become their dream home.

[mint]

Thank you, thank you, thank you, cher Chancer.

You're right, I's gonna buy the house that is right for me and then, when/if the time comes to sell, OH can do a sketch.

Perfect strategy.  Still waiting for seller to come back but that's OK as I will only buy if the price is right and we are, after all, giving him the asking price but expecting him to take off the cost of a new fosse (which he himself offered to do).

Fosse is another story and on another thread but Pachapapa is advising me on that aspect.

 

[WJT]

Sweet17, do let us know what happens. If you do get the house at least you have the option for a future buyer to have the kitchen as they please. We are still in the building process so sadly  haven't even bought our kitchen yet. But the wall has come down and an island unit will go in it's place and there will be no options in the future to close it back up.Very scary. This thread is bringing up old indecisions all over again. [:P]

[Gardengirl]

Sweet, our French kitchen is only about 3.5m by 1.9m; it's a bit tight sometimes, but adequate most of the time. The UK kitchen is about 3m by 4m; there's quite a bit of wasted space really, because of where the doors are placed - and a centre unit would be tricky to fit in; there's loads of storage space, whereas in France we're a bit short. We've been short of work surface in both kitchens from time to time, although it's normally OK. There's a small breakfast table in the UK kitchen, often used as work surface as you do, and there's a dining room next door, so I can happily shut the mess of pots and pans away. Here in France we either eat out on the balcony, as we did today (16.2 degrees!) or at the table in the living room; either way, we're not eating with the mess. I also use my Remoska out on the balcony all year round, and in the kitchen when the weather's too bad (thought about one for ages, read everything I could find about them, and Clair finished it all off by singing their praises!) [:D]

Thinking about it, what I'm most keen on in a kitchen is lightness and being able to see outside while working in there. I love to watch the birds, squirrels, sometimes foxes, how the plants are doing from UK kitchen window. Here in France I can only see the tops of trees, blue sky and birds, but I enjoy that. So size and shape aren't what matter to me at all in the kitchen; I wouldn't have one if I couldn't see outside! [:)]

But I recall, Sweet, that you love lots of cooking, with your big cooker. Is there a good cooker in this other house, or would you plan to buy a new one to suit your cooking style? [:D]

 

[tenniswitch]

For me, the amount of work space is more important than the size of the kitchen. 

Our house in the US has quite a large kitchen with a good bit of work space near the cooker, sink, and fridge; a small sitting area (previous owners ate there, but I have a couch and read there) and a 9-foot-long peninsula bar with 4 chairs.  Since we never ate at the bar (the kitchen opens onto the living/dining room) it is now the center of ops for our computers, etc

Which is a long-way round to explain why, when we renovated our house in France, I was happy to carve off a corner of the old kitchen for a downstairs loo.  I designed in a good-size work space between the cooker and sink with additional counter space next to the cooker and the fridge, and I have a nice big pantry in the hall that's been created by turning a rectangle into an L-shape.  There's no room to eat in the kitchen at all, but the dining room is next door and the kitchen is also very close to the balcon where we often eat in warm weather

It's very hard to predict what potential future buyers might want.  Unless you plan to flip the house very quickly, or your preferences are very odd indeed, I would go with what suits YOU (and not the DH unless he's planning to take up cooking in a big way).

[mint]

Loved your comments, WJT and tenniswitch.  You're right, it's actually a very personal thing and it's definitely not a case of one size fits all, is it?

GG, yes, I love cooking and I have this ginormous cooker with 3 ovens, 5 burners including a massive wok burner, 2 grills, a rotissiere, 2 warming drawers etc. etc.

But, no, I don't think I'll have all that lot again![:D]  But, however, will have at least 2 ovens and, if such things are still available, an eye-level grill.

Also, will have our gas bbq for outdoor cooking in the summer and I guess all my requirements will then be met!

[Tricia]

This is our second house in France and both have had U shaped kitchen areas, about 4 by 2 metres, which I find easy to work in. I don't have a dish-washer.

This is partt of a bigger room where we eat and have a dresser too.

But we also have a sort of second kitchen in the barn with freezers, washing machine, and a sink which is used for "dirty" jobs. Like washing gardening things, plucking chickens etc.

Does your (potentially) new house have room for extra ktchen jobs like that? I find it very useful.

[mint]

Hi, Pat, not sure about a second kitchen in the potential house but I think it's possible to have one depending on drains etc.  There is a large garage which I can see us using for storage, freezer/fridge and, dependent on drains, etc to put in another sink in.

I agree, a second kitchen is very useful.  In fact, where I grew up in Malaysia, most people have an "outdoors" kitchen which they use for washing mucky stuff and doing the occasional "smelly" fry up.

In fact, if I do stay at my present house, I am going to install a big butler type sink which will take large oven shelves for soaking and washing.

But, Pat, as you know, I have been looking to move for quite a long time now.  Sometimes, it's easier to start afresh, n'est ce pas?

[Judith]

I think what is most important is layout rather than size itself.  I had a small (but large by central London flat standards) kitchen in London, but which had been designed by me in conjunction with a friend who just happened to be a kitchen fitter, and it was of the sort where there was plenty of work surface, room around each appliance (fridge, cooker and sink) to work and put things down but without wasting any space.  No space for a table, but we did design a breakfast bar into it - I can only remember using it when we had guests sleeping in the lounge (one bed flat, but it had cupboards under as well.  It was well designed, and worked well for 20 years.  It was of the U-shaped variety, but with sufficient space for a least two people to work comfortably if required.

Here in France I have a kitchen three times the size - but it is a triangle, with two doors in it, two tiny fitted work surfaces, a small scullery with a step, a wood burning cooker and only movable bookcases to put things on, when you can find space between the triangular corners, the two doors and the window.  We do have a table in it as we eat there in winter (its the warmest place), but it can only be placed in one place and is not very convenient.  I still think the London flat kitchen worked much better in spite of its size.  I get fed up of having to walk around getting things from all three corners (yes!) of the room, and I am up and down the step into the scullery, where one of the work surfaces is, all the time).

We are (hopefully) moving, and, guess what, I have chosen a house with a fitted kitchen, not large but adequate, three doors (will I never learn?) but still more space for storage and working than my current kitchen.  It also has room for a dining table to seat 6, though that doesn't leave much space to walk around - it is till adequate.

As others have said, go for what you want, and not what you think will sell later.  Everyone will go for different things - the kitchen is just one part of the whole!!

Good luck.

[NickP]

Kitchens and house design is very much what you need for the family. When the kids were at school we had a separate kitchen so that when my wife was cooking the kids didn't get under her feet. When we got rid of the little blighter's ( or we thought we had) and bought our holiday home in France  it was an old barn, one huge room and a tiny French kitchen stuck on the side, and because the woman of the house was so small all the worktops were a three inches lower than normal. But after a while we realised that I was in one room and my lovely wife was in the Kitchen, and as her hobby is cooking she spends a lot of time in there; it was a little unsociable, so we moved the kitchen into one end of the big room and I must say it really works for us. The added benefit is now when the grandchildren are with us Easter and Summer we can both keep an eye on them. And we need two pairs of eyes, as  it's funny; but as you get older they get quicker, and you worry more. So sweet, do what suits you and your life style you know it makes sense. Don't worry about the future as the buyers then will only alter it. [:)]