Who do you think you are ?

[Russethouse]

Anyone else watch the Jerry Springer episode this week ?

[woolybanana]

Why?

[Clair]

I love that program and I thought this particular episode very very poignant.

I read this excellent interview before the program was shown. He comes across as highly intelligent, so very unlike his tv persona...

I have watched and enjoyed every episode of all the previous series.

The one episode that has stayed in my mind is the John Hurt one from

the previous series. He was so convinced of his Irish roots and so

distraught when it turned out there was nothing Irish in his family

history...

Patsy Kensit was quite touching in her need to have some good deed done to redeem the nastier aspects of her family's past.

[Russethouse]

[quote user="woolybanana"]Why?[/quote]

Because I think it was very moving - Jerry Springer was born in the UK, his parents left Germany literally just in time, but his grandmothers were left there. It seemed clear that Jerry Springers parents didn't discuss the fate of their mothers with their children, or if they did, only in the broadest terms.

Jerry Springer was taken to the places where his grandmothers met their fates, not where he thought at all, but at different places - the Germans kept excellent records and so quite a lot of detail was available.

It's easy to talk about the holocaust in general terms etc, but when it's brought down to an individual level like that it's somehow different.

It was thought provoking......

[Tony F Dordogne]

I've worked on several of the WDYTYA programmes and can't watch it any more, as with many other popular programmes, it's dumbing down and could often be half an hour shorter.

But this week - I'm an east end of London bloke with strong Jewish connections - I watched it and was moved to tears.  Seeing Jerry Springer at the railway station from which his grandmother was deported was very hard to watch as was him following the (then) underground passage where she walked to the gas van - and he made some very telling points about what ordinary people can do to each other for wholly spurious reasons of religion and ethnicity.

And the meeting with the second cousin who lives in Israel and about whom he knew nothing was moving also.

Shame the lessons haven't been learned in some parts of the world really.

 

[Clair]

[quote user="Tony F Dordogne"]I've worked on several of the WDYTYA programmes and can't watch it any more, as with many other popular programmes, it's dumbing down and could often be half an hour shorter. [/quote]

I suppose it is often the case when you are a specialist in a given science.

I find it fascinating in the way it opens my eyes to the social history of a given period, be it life in the tenements (Jeremy Paxman), in a plantation (Colin Jackson) or in war-torn Europe (Natasha Kaplinski).

[Russethouse]

[quote user="Tony F Dordogne"]

I've worked on several of the WDYTYA programmes and can't watch it any more, as with many other popular programs, it's dumbing down and could often be half an hour shorter.

[/quote]

Pretty much why I gave up watching the Antiques Road show, even with my limited knowledge it was frustrating.

I didn't see many of the last series of WDYTYA but I have watched all of the current series, I enjoyed Boris's rather jolly romp through his ancestors but the Jerry Springer program was in stark contrast - I agree, the programs really are a good way to look at social history......

Actually I thought Natasha Kaplinsky's was the worst of the lot because her reactions seemed so stilted.....

[Callie]

Regrettably, I have never seen those programmes, which came out after we left the UK and we have no satelite TV.  However, I bought a brilliant book on researching your family tree, and was hooked straight away.  I discovered a part of the family that I never knew existed (old skeletons.....though I haven't got to the bottom of it all yet, and it's probably too late now) and then went on to do Mr Callie's past.  He knew nothing at all about his father's side of the family so that was a real challenge.

It is absolutely fascinating to go into the social history, as Clair says, and imagine your family living at that time.  An amazing number of OH's family went to Australia in the 1800s, and ssome of mine went from Skye to North Carolina in 1774.  They had the means to avoid having to travel in the bowels of the ship, but I simply cannot imagine what crossing the Atlantic must have been like in those days.....

Internet and email have made contact so much easier for the exchange of info and, best of all, photographs.  But one does really have to go to the places to get the real picture.

[Clair]

[quote user="Russethouse"]Actually I thought Natasha Kaplinsky's was the worst of the lot because her reactions seemed so stilted.....[/quote]

Too much Botox? [Www]

[Russethouse]

No - you don't say.........

The tears seemed a bit forced....

One I remember particularly was Barbara Windsors - that was enjoyable ..........I liked Shelia Hancocks too

[Will]

Nobody has mentioned Boris Johnson yet, perhaps one of the more irritating, but fascinating.

[Russethouse]

Oh yes they have.......[:)][:)][:)]

I enjoyed Boris's rather jolly romp through his ancestors but the Jerry Springer program was in stark contrast

[Russethouse]

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4ri9qVcyiU

This the end of the program - the rest is there though if you search under 'Who do you think you are - Jerry Springer'

[Frederick]

Callie........I agree its facinating looking into your family history.....mine also went to America in the 1700's and even ended up married into two native American tribes....so I have indians with my surname .....I dont suppose I shall every find out how that came about but there must be a story there .

[nectarine]

Family tree research is fascinating.  When my father was very ill, and just before he died, I researched his family tree to give him so interest.  Pa had always been very proper about things, so the look on his face when he found out that his mother ws 5 months pregnant with him when she wed was priceless!  Likewise, finding out that his grandfather was five years old at his parents' wedding, and that the generation before didn't appear to have even got to the altar .... I remember him roaring with laughter to find that he came from a long line of Welsh b*****rds !!!!

It's quite addictive and I am in touch with distant relatives who have researched even further .... what is fascinating is to find a distinctive family feature (shape of face, nose, etc.) that figures in old photos or when you meet distant relatives!!!  An absorbing hobby and I'm glad that the TV series has opened up this line of interest for many people.

[Judith]

[quote user="Russethouse"]

Actually I thought Natasha Kaplinsky's was the worst of the lot because her reactions seemed so stilted.....

[/quote]

Yes, I thought that too.  I thought it was odd, but she seems to have got less natural as she has become more famous.  It seemed staged to me.  I enjoyed the Boris "romp', but didn't see Jerry Springer.  I thought Jeremy Paxman showed a very human side, one you don't often see.  I miss more than I see of this series,  the first lot were excellent, but they seem to be starting to scrape the barrel as usual.  Still   if it gets people interested in their history it is a "good thing"!!

[odile]

hurray - we agree Russethouse - is that a first? Salutations   Odile[quote user="Russethouse"]

[quote user="woolybanana"]Why?[/quote]

Because I think it was very moving - Jerry Springer was born in the UK, his parents left Germany literally just in time, but his grandmothers were left there. It seemed clear that Jerry Springers parents didn't discuss the fate of their mothers with their children, or if they did, only in the broadest terms.

Jerry Springer was taken to the places where his grandmothers met their fates, not where he thought at all, but at different places - the Germans kept excellent records and so quite a lot of detail was available.

It's easy to talk about the holocaust in general terms etc, but when it's brought down to an individual level like that it's somehow different.

It was thought provoking......

[/quote]

[Clarkkent]

[quote user="Russethouse"]

Actually I thought Natasha Kaplinsky's was the worst of the lot because her reactions seemed so stilted.....

[/quote]

Agreed.

But the really interesting social history aspect of her programme was the way her family - Jewish refugees from Hitler's Germany - acquiesed with the the white South African government over apartheid.

[tegwini]

Nothing new in that Clarkkent- 

 I knew lots of them at university in Johannesburg.   Many were superficially liberal, but left SA when white control ended.  Others were and are, sincere - for example Helen Suzman.   I did not see the Natasha Kaplinski programme,  but read somewhere that her father left SA as an opponent of the Nationalist party government.

The Gerry Springer programme I also found very moving, poignant, but I had friends in Johannesburg with a similar history as quite a few Jewish refugees went to South Africa.   In the mid 80s there were over 1/3 million Jewish people in SA, more than in the UK at that time.

Regards

Tegwini

 

[odile]

was very shocked to find out that Huguenots descendants in the Cape werare also fierce promoters of apartheid- Eugee Terreblanche being their leader. It was shocking to me particularly because I am of Huguenot stock on my father's side. When my OH's parents came to the UK, it was because of apartheid. Father was part English, part Egyptian, and mother of dutch + norwegian + African descent. Life for them became unbearable in SA. Very sad/shameful times.

[tegwini]

Yes quite true Odile

The Afrikaaner controlled much in SA.  They 'invented' apartheid to look after their own people.

English speaking South Africans rarely voted for the National Party (the controlling party & the political party for the Afrikaaners) and were in many ways also underdogs.   My old head teacher, for example,   a South African with British blood and not an Afrikaaner, could go no further than being a HT as ALL the inspectors, directors of education & etc  in Natal were all Afrikaaners, where  over 80% of the school children spoke primarily English.    Similar with all the senior state & quasi state positions.   And, many of the English had their roots in SA too, many having been there since the British took over the Cape in 1805.

The Huguenots were purposely scattered around the Cape hinterland during the late 17th and early 18th centuries  by the Dutch East India Company and lost their French language within a generation or so.   Very few French words were adopted.   In fact,  Dutch was simplified a bit & acquired words from e.g. Malay slaves and workers.   Only the surnames remained, and a high percentage of Afrikaaners have French names, but pronounced very differently.   There is a monument to the Huguenots in the Cape, and of course the wine industry is a reminder of them too. 

 It is strange that the Afrikaaner's descent from Dutch traders  with their the skills of exploration and trade were lost so soon.  And also, that the initial liberal attitudes that prevailed in the Cape until the mid 18th century changed so much.   During the 17th and early 18th centuries inter-racial marriage was allowed, even welcomed at times.    Perhaps the Great Trek and the many misfortunes of the Afrikaans trekkers moving off and migrating northwards hardened their attititudes.   Not dissimilar from the experiences and attitudes of the movement westwards in the USA. 

The British government has some responsibility for apartheid too as after the Anglo-Boer war in 1902 they set up the new government, the constitution & etc.   British trade unionists migrating to SA even insisted on job protection and kept Africans out of many jobs.   The Afrikaaners were at this time weak, their numbers  were dimished as a result of the British Army's scorched earth policy and the moving of most of the women & children into 'concentration camps' where at least 40,000 died from various diseases.  

 But, I think there was not the will to make too many changes at the time after a rather nasty war, and a fair amount of guilt must have influenced Lord Milner and his Oxbridge cronies who ran the country.

Sadly, there are still a few crackpots such as Eugene Terreblanche around in SA, but generally the transition has been relatively peaceful. Unfortunately the crime rate is now out of control and the economy is also declining.

Regards

Tegwini

 

 

 

 

[Tony F Dordogne]

I'm sorry folks but the references to Huguenots isn't quite accurate.

The Afrikaanas are not, in the main, descended from Huguenots except where they married into Dutch families, they are tho Calvinists but from the Dutch and much more hard line and arguably much biblically stricter churches.  Huguenots are particularly French Calvinists, not Calvinists from other European countries.  The Afrikaanas are descended from Dutch Calvinists and Walloons, who were indeed sent to South Africa with the VOC, as a way of spreading the particularly strict teachings of the Dutch Church whilst at the same time expanding the Dutch mercantile base.  They didn't loose the French language because many of them didn't have it in the first place, the French speaking Huguenots in the Cape area were a small minority, quite often Walloons so close to the Dutch, who quickly became assimilated into the Dutch community.

Many more French Huguenots went to the Cape with the British East India Company which was founded in 1600 and was seen as a way of spreading British influence into the Cape by Elizabeth I, James and Charles I, from 1600 until the Palantine Huguenots were expelled from the German States in the early 1700s.  And, although the VOC continued to send Dutch and French Calvinists to the Cape during the 17th/18th centuries, all the major modern and non-partisan sources indicate that despite the use of French place names, the French Protestant commun ities had all but disappeared within three/four generations of arrival.

There is a good deal of modern research on this and the concensus is that French Huguenots may have been socially influential, from a religious and political point of view, it was the Dutch, now the Afrikaanas who were the real political force.  A couple of years ago there was an excellent paper published showing the direct links between the Dutch Calvinist Churches and the religious basis of the Apartheid State, in which there was little or no French influence.  And there have been several excellent papers on the development of the Huguenot/Calvinist communities in the Proceedings of the Huguenot Society of Great Britain and I have recently commissioned an article from somebody that is descended from both French and Dutch immigrants to SA on this relationship.

[tegwini]

Tony

The Huguenots did go to SA  and many Afrikaaners ARE descended from them.

 I realise that this is your big interest, but there's quite a bit documented on this in various books on SA history.   Some Huguenots did go directly to the Cape, but  many got out of France & perhaps went wherever they could including Belgium, some even to the UK..  See the link below on Hugueots in SA.

"After the main stream of Huguenots arrived during 1688 – 1689, they comprised approximately one sixth of the free burgher population, after which individual arrivals continued sporadically until the termination of the state subsidised emigration in 1707.

and

"The Dutch East India Company encouraged the Huguenots to emigrate to the Cape because they shared the same religious beliefs, and also due to the fact that most of them were highly trained craftsmen or experienced farmers, specifically in viticulture and oenology (the growing of grapes and making of wine, brandy and vinegar). They, as well as their descendants, proved that they were hard working and industrious, and their efforts led to a marked increase in the improvement of quality Cape wines. A number of wine estates have French names to this day, as a reminder of their important contribution to this industry in the Western Cape. The number of vine plants increased from 100 in 1655 (three years after the arrival of Jan van Riebeeck at the Cape) to 1,5 million in 1700".

and

"The Huguenots did indeed leave a direct and indirect legacy in South Africa. They did not continue to live as an separate, clearly identifiable subgroup. Already early in the eighteenth century they were assimilated by the rest of the population at the Cape as a result of both political measures and their minority numbers.  But despite their relatively small numbers, they nevertheless left an indelible mark on and made a valuable contribution during the early years of the settlement at the Cape of Good Hope to various areas - economy, education, technology, agriculture, culture, church life, religion, etc. "

And it is well documented that they left La Rochelle for the Cape.  And their ancestors in SA have names such as Du Toit, Du Plessis, Cronje etc many changed over the years into names easier to spell & say.  SEE LINK:

see:http://www.geocities.com/hugenoteblad/huguenots.htm?20082

The British East India company was founded  1602, after Elizabeth 1 died , not during her reign,  and  at this time English energies and interests were more directed to North America.

The British were also  not in the Cape at this time, and only managed to take over the Cape during the Napoleonic wars.    And yes,   as I previously stated the French language etc went within a generation or two, and their Dutch masters called the shots, but constantly French names surface over the years, and some of SA's most senior Afrikaans politicians have had French/Huguenot names although they were Afrikaaners, but claimed to be proud of their antecedents, and especially the French ones. 

A lot of geneology is also done in SA, but I expect you are aware of this.

Tegwini   

 

 

[Tony F Dordogne]

[quote user="tegwini"]

Some Huguenots did go directly to the Cape, but  many got out of France & perhaps went wherever they could including Belgium, some even to the UK.

Sorry, not accurate, Holland was the first port of call for the majority of the refugees unless they went east to the German Principalities or Switzerland and then England because the English monarch and Church wanted them there - Belgium didn't exist at this time and at one stage the Spanish Netherlands slaughtered hundreds of dissenters.  And you're right, some went directly to SA but not that many in the grand plan and as La Rochelle was closed down to fleeing Huguenots, the only way out was north and then out of the new host countries.

The British East India company was founded  1602, after Elizabeth 1 died , not during her reign,  and  at this time English energies and interests were more directed to North America.The British were also  not in the Cape at this time, and only managed to take over the Cape during the Napoleonic wars.   

This is wholly wrong - I have a copy of the Charter of the Honourable East India Company and it was founded during the reign of Elizabeth 1st, actually 1st January 1600 and it's signed by Elizabeth -  the merchants had to be protestant and living in London to be members.  It was NOT founded in 1602.  As a resracher in the India Office Library in London for many years, I KNOW this to be accurate.

The HEIC was trading in SA/Cape from the early 1600s and whilst governmental responsibilty may not have passed into the hands of the Brits until the Napoleonic war, there is an eight volume history of the pre Napoleonic involvement of the HEIC Factory in SA on the open shelves at the British Library, India Office Library collection.

I was in SA for their big Huguenot celebration a few years ago and, as with many other social science subjects, even the SA researchers can't agree on the influence given by some over others.  I tend to go with the more recent reesearch and the more recently researched and published genealogical and historical sources, especially independent of the Huguenot descended community.

 

Tegwini   

 

 

[/quote]

[tegwini]

Tony

Some of your ideas are contrary to the history taught by SA University professors who have access to archives & documents to prove that the Huguenots went to SA, and  some went via  La Rochelle, some from elsewhere, and many Afrikaaners have Huguenot blood.

 "The Afrikaanas are not, in the main, descended from Huguenots" quote Tony. 

The number of French names that Afrikaaners have - as many as one sixth of the Afrikaans population-  I never stated that  it was higher than this.

 Many more French Huguenots went to the Cape with the British East India Company which was founded in 1600 and was seen as a way of spreading British influence into the Cape by Elizabeth I, James... quote Tony.    

The British did not control the Cape at this time, and the Huguenot arrivals happened during the time of the Dutch East India Company & NOT that early.  They only chose to leave France after persecution started - much later.

I can quite understand people of Huguenot descent attempting to distance themselves from the Afrikaaners, but it not possible to deny the truth.

Do have a look at the long list of French names on this link. Some of the Huguenot names here are the names of some very prominent SA politicians including Malan.  One of the architects of apartheid. They even named an airport after him. Piet Retief (Retif) is well known as an important trekker, and  was celebrated for decades on the Day of the Covenant, a public holiday to commemerate victory over the Zulus - after defeat.

 :http://www.geocities.com/sa_stamouers/huguenots.htm

Tegwini