The cost of living in france before we take the plunge

[Will]

I've heard that 90-day myth before. It seems to come from the 90-day residence rule that can be applied by HMRC in cases where there may be large-scale tax evasion going on. For one thing, residence for health and social security purposes are totally separate issues (though see below) so even if you qualify for fiscal residence it doesn't necessarily mean that is where your health care comes from. And for another, France has totally different residence qualifications - that in itself can be a minefield, but it isn't one we need worry about in this context.

As long as you are 'ordinarily resident' in UK you qualify for care through the NHS, and an NHS-issued EHIC in France. The NHS uses the same definition as HMRC for 'ordinary resident' (see here), and as this status doesn't exist in France it can give rise to confusion.

Another point - the EHIC gives access to routine treatments for existing conditions as well as emergency treatment.

To sum up, it's as Cooperlola says, as long as you spend more time in UK than in France in a year then your NHS status is retained. And the EHIC gives you the same coverage as any French resident - i.e 70% of standard doctor's fees, 65% for most medications.

[Chancer]

Anyone who is deemed to be ordinarily resident in the UK is entitled to free NHS hospital treatment in England. “Ordinarily resident” is a common law concept interpreted by the House of Lords in 1982 as someone who is living lawfully in the United Kingdom voluntarily and for settled purposes as part of the regular order of their life for the time being, with an identifiable purpose for their residence here which has a sufficient degree of continuity to be properly described as settled.

Thats so Wooly that you could drive a tank through it Will!

I have successfully proven continuity of UK residence in another area (an appeal against a planning enforcement order) with only spending between 4 and 6 weeks in the UK each calender year.

The inspector for the secretary of state ruled :

"It is analogous to that which would arise if an occupier regularly went away on long holidays, worked abroad for substantial periods or undertook tours of military duty for several months at a time, but left most of their belongings at home while doing so. Although that person would not always be physically present in the accomodation, they would return on a regular basis for domestic habitation and it would remain their home;"

[andyh4]

Chancer

Don't blame Will.  That is the fundamental basis of UK law - rather abstract rules confimred through case history.

 

Like you I could have been ducking and diving between regimes proving residence or non residence to suit my purposes.  Even in countries where the rules are much more precise and where case law is not an intrinsic part of the "system", the rules have not been drawn up for the few that "enjoy" a transnational lifestyle.  There are therefore plenty of gaps to enjoy/exploit. 

[Will]

Andy, thanks for the defence, but it's not really necessary. I don't disagree with Chancer that it's woolly (or even banana shaped [;-)]) and open to all sorts of interpretations/abuse. And that in real terms anybody who appears to be genuinely English with a proper UK address will mostly be accepted by the NHS.

The purpose of my post was to explain how things stand officially - it's up to the readers whether they choose to follow or ignore the guidelines or think they are enforceable.

In real terms, the concept of 'ordinary residence' means that most people can automatically retain the status for about two years after leaving UK, and if you keep a house and/or other domestic and financial ties you can often hang on to it for rather longer.

Where the ducking and diving gets potentially dangerous is if, for instance, your pattern of EHIC use rings alarm bells with the French authorities who may think you are spending more than half of the year in France. I don't doubt there are easy enough ways to leap around this hurdle, but it's yet another thing to bear in mind when living on the edge of the system.

[Quillan]

I don't know how it would work these days but some years back under the old E111 system some friends of ours who thought they were 'playing' the system has some devastating news, the wife was diagnosed with cancer. Initial treatment was carried out under the E111 but they decided the quality of treatment and care was better in France than the UK so they carried on. The thought that what the E111 didn't cover their private travel insurance would. Sadly after several months the wife died. Shortly after the bereft husband had a visit from the Gendarmes who asked for his passport. The another chap turned up with a letter telling him the house would be sold to pay for the hospital treatment. It turned out that of course the E111 only covered emergency treatment and that his wife had neglected to tell the insurance company that she had had breast cancer some 25 years previously because as far as she was concerned she had been treated and cured. The new cancer by the way was somewhere different.

The total bill was around €90k that the French health system wanted from him. Fortunately he had the money, it just took a month to get it all together so they gave him his passport back and never sold the house. He thought he was badly treated by the French so sold up and left vowing never to return. Personally I don't think he was, I think the French acted properly and what should he have expected if he played both sides. Other than that they were really nice people but just stupid and it goes to show that in life you never know what cards you will be dealt. We had conversations prior to this all happening about him joining the French system but like many he used the 'stock excuse' of France being in Europe the same as the UK and he had paid in all his life and why should he have to pay even more. This is why I always tell people there is right way to do things or point them to somebody who can tell them then its up to them. I will shortly be going to hospital for an operation and apart from working out how the French system works (which is very bureaucratic) everything is paid for via my Carte Vital and mutual so I don't have to sit around at night wondering what if and how much.

[Polly]

As I said earlier, I find debates on this sort of topic fascinating.

Is X is really that dumb? Is Y pulling our legs, he's really a pen-pusher who plays by the rules?

and so on...

[Benjamin]

A salutory lesson to be learned there Quillan, but as we all know this sort of thing never happens to the duckers/divers/chancers.  [Www]

[Quillan]

[quote user="Benjamin"]A salutory lesson to be learned there Quillan, but as we all know this sort of thing never happens to the duckers/divers/chancers.  [Www]

[/quote]

Or so they will brag and have you believe. To be honest if I sit in my local bar on market day the place is full of them all talking utter bull. It actually gets me quite annoyed because some listening actually believe them so the best cure for me is not to go in to town on market day, life becomes much easier then. The other thing you hear is somebody arriving from the airport telling them that another plane load of 'fresh blood' has arrived so the 'black' renovating business should pick up and they can screw these newcomers for all they are worth, trouble is we all get tared with the same brush grrrrrrr. [:'(] [:@] Mind you listening to my brother-in-law who lives in Spain its not much different there either.

[Sprogster]

We know that the issue of early retiree Brits living in France is a political hot potato, thanks to a stupid small minority of Brit expats being caught acting illegally, hence probably the changes in the French health rules.

Unfortunately therefore one can expect early retiree Brit expats to be put under the microscope by the French authorities, if a situation arises that brings them to their attention.

Undoubtedly, the French authorities have totally overeacted to what they saw as an escalating problem, but the reality is that it was the stupid small minority of Brit expats that tried to play the game that spoiled it for everyone else!

[Chancer]

AndyH4

I wasnt blaming Will (as I am sure he realises) just expressing my surprise that the legislation is really that Wooly.

Sprogster wrote:

We know that the issue of early retiree Brits living in France is a political hot potato, thanks to a stupid small minority of Brit expats being caught acting illegally, hence probably the changes in the French health rules.

Unfortunately therefore one can expect early retiree Brit expats to be put under the microscope by the French authorities, if a situation arises that brings them to their attention.

Undoubtedly, the French authorities have totally overeacted to what they saw as an escalating problem, but the reality is that it was the stupid small minority of Brit expats that tried to play the game that spoiled it for everyone else!

The French authorities knee jerk reaction was the ever growing number of inactifs who were at that time able to benefit from the C.M.U. de base as not having sufficient resources whilst living in substantial properties with swimming pools not those using an EHIC which costs the French authorities nil and contributes significantly to the income of the health service.

But were those people acting illegally? - I think not unless they had deliberately misdeclared their income and there were plenty of systems in place to hound them, there were also systems in place to put a value to the luxury of their lifestyle which would have taken them beyond the C.M.U. threshold.

I know a mentally retarded French guy, I took sympathy and befriended him when I could see the torment and abuse he was subjected to from the local populace, something we share although in my case to a lesser degree and I have broad shoulders and can defend myself.

He cannot read or write and I suspect neither can his family as he must be quite desperate to ask a foreigner to read his mail for him, he often gets confused with his bank statements not understanding what DR means and also distributeur soldes reading off his account number and thinking that it is his balance etc.

He came to me once with a letter that was advising him of the end of his rights to the CMU. On further investigation I found that they had estimated a benefit value to the fact that he shares a foyer with his aged and deranged mother, this they had added to his small pension d'invalidité which took him over the C.M.U. de base threshold, they had offered him a credit of  €400 towards the first years premiums of a mutuelle which he does not have the money to pay for valuing extra strength lager over his health.

At the time I considered it injust knowing of inactif immigrants living in conditions that he and I could only dream of that were benefitting from the CMU, OK their world was shaken up for a while but soon returned to normality thanks to the tireless efforts of Cooperlola nd others like them.

As NormanH has often posted that the CMU was a fairly recent innovation intended to be a safety net for citizens living in precarity not to fund the lifestyles of economic early retirees. I have deliberately not used the words Brit expats as the situation can be exploited by any C.E.E. nationality, it was perhaps an unfortunate coincidence that the introduction of the CMU (which is to be applauded) coincided with the rise in UK property prices, a strong pound and TV programs like a place in the sun.

[AnOther]

Quillan's tale is interesting and neatly illustrates a point I have frequently made.

Choosing whether to observe or break any given rule is a personal decision we all make but an absolute prerequisite for the latter is an awareness and understanding of the rule, and the potential consequences of non compliance.

[Quillan]

I do think its a bit unfair to lay the reason for the changes to the health/social system at just the English door. Many, many, French have been abusing the system for years, declaring as 'inactif' whilst working on the black. Likewise there were many immigrants to France that also declared as 'inactif' when they were either 'doing' their tax via their home country or just putting zero on their French tax return whilst taking cash only for their B&B (just like some French do) as just one example. So the English didn't help much but it was not just down to them that the laws were changed.

[Panda]

Hello

Just a note on Will's point about having a UK address and appearing english.  I was very surprised that on a recent visit to A&E with my son dripping blood all over the floor on presenting my name and sons name, was told the computer says you live in France!  I've lived back in the UK for nearly a year now and am registered with a GP but my computerised medical records had my move noted so it's not ging to be as easy as it was to turn up and be treated it would seem.  For me it was simple to sort out as I can prove residency, I live here, pay NI etc. and either way they would have treated my son, not least to stop him getting the floor dirty!  He was in fact cleaned and stiched on on our way in less than 20 minutes so can't be bad.

Panda

[euroman]

Just like to say a big thank you for all your help, as i see it our choices are.

1 Wait until we are both retired to obtain free health cover.

2 If we moved now we could use E106 for 2 and half years then buy cover up 5 years then obtain free cover.

3 Buy now but only use the house for a short period and use EHIC cover in UK

I see that you have to pay social charges do you still pay this if you do not live in the house all year or does it come with purcasing a property?

Steve

[Will]

So-called 'social charges' arise if you are fiscally resident in France, which is not as simple as just buying a property or even, as many think, spending 183 days a year in France. See here for a basic summary. The charges are payable on most, though not all, income and gains.

[cooperlola]

I think you have summed up your options pretty well.  However, the E106 is not automatically for 30 months and you must bear in mind that its validity begins the day you stop paying an employee/self employed stamp - ie it's when you cease to work, not when you move.  30 months is the maximum, 24 the minimum (subtract 12 for the self employed).  If you stop work any time from 6th July to 6th Jan the following year, you do far better than giving up in the first six months.  Daft but true!

EDIT : Sorry, reading ANO's post I realise that the minima are wrong. They are18 and 6 months respectively.[:$]

[Pagnolfan]

Hope you don't mind me asking a further question on this thread. I have been following the debate with interest as we are in an identical position to the OP.

Is there not a "fourth way"? To run a small business ie on an AE basis and by virtue of this, become part of the french system and thus pay your way? My OH and I were thinking of a small gite or chambre d'hote type business? I expect you will say this has been done to death but I see there are others of you doing it, presumably reasonably successfully.

We would only need the income to cover our taxes/ contributions as have early retirement pension income to cover living costs. Also, i think it would give us an interest and involvement. Don't want to become completely inactif, just get out of the UK ratrace.

[dexter]

Hi euroman,

You said in your OP that you were both under retirement age and non workers. Are you still paying NI? As I understand it, in order to qualify for the E106 you need to be up to date with your NI payments for the previous 2 years. I`m not sure if the amount of time the E106 is valid for reduces relative to the NI payments made within the last 2 years but to be fore warned is to be fore armed as they say.

Dex

[Russethouse]

Is there not a "fourth way"? To run a small business ie on an AE basis and by virtue of this, become part of the french system and thus pay your way?

 I believe this was mentioned on another thread and the answer was that AE will only give one person health cover, you would need a different regime for you both to benefit. There may also be a minimum income requirement but I'm sure someone else will know. (Will perhaps ?)

 My own opinion is that you should be careful if you follow this route,  as even if there is not a minimum requirement now it could be introduced, especially if the French perceive it as a loophole.

[AnOther]

Entitlement to an E106 is dependent on having paid sufficient full class 1 NI contributions in the preceeding 2 full tax years. From memory this is a minimum of 42 weeks/pa but don't quote me.

To put that in practical terms if say you packed up work today you would need a full NI record for the tax years 2007/8 and 2008/9 to qualify however the E106 you received would effectively have started on Jan 1st so would only last until Jan 2012 or 20 months.

[britgirl]

[quote user="AnOther"]Entitlement to an E106 is dependent on having paid sufficient full class 1 NI contributions in the preceeding 2 full tax years. From memory this is a minimum of 42 weeks/pa but don't quote me.

To put that in practical terms if say you packed up work today you would need a full NI record for the tax years 2007/8 and 2008/9 to qualify however the E106 you received would effectively have started on Jan 1st so would only last until Jan 2012 or 20 months.


[/quote]

As far as I know Class 3 (non/un employed ) contributions, will not count towards your E106, so there is no way of trying to 'beat the system' if you have given up work already.

It really is a case of very careful planning.

Bon Chance

[Sprogster]

Russethouse makes a very valid comment, in that the change to the health rules three years ago, were intended to prevent Brit early retirees from afiliating to the French health system, when they have not contributed to it during their working lives. Therefore, the AE is not quite the loophole you think, as it only covers one person and I believe there is a minimum income requirement. Also expect the French authorities to be obstructive if they think you are trying to exploit the AE for health cover, as they are well aware that early retirees will try to exploit it!!

[AnOther]

You are correct, class 3 NI does not count however, even if you have ceased working, depending on when that was you could still be entitled to some period of E106 cover so it is always worth a call to the DWP.