3916 form

[Doodle]

Yes I know it's that time again but I've been thinking ahead to this year's tax declaration, I would like to know if I should be including on my form 3916 the following:-

A Personal Pension Plan. It is a very small amount invested that I have never contributed to (but which has grown a little and decreased a little through the years) through contracting out as an employee giving up my right to additional state pension ie Serps. I've been letting it sit there because it is such a small amount and thought it might cover a sudden April shower rather than a rainy day!

One other question, do the tax forms get sent out in the post whether or not you are declaring on-line or do I have to ask for them/go and get them? I don't want to do the declaration on-line so am willing to pay the 15 euros or whatever it is because I find it easier to read forms and information in a hard copy format than on a screen.

As usual very grateful for your replies.

Mrs KG

[suein56]

IMHO you need to mention your personal pension plan on your 3916.

When the type of accounts that needed to be listed for the fisc was enlarged to encompass any 'deposit holders' some years ago it brought into play the need to include any such pension accounts.

Which is probably why the total of online 3916 forms available for must-be-declared accounts was increased from a maximum of 10 to an unlimited number a couple of years ago.

You should receive a paper tax declaration form 2042 at least this year though whether that will continue is anyone's guess. I declare online but do like a paper form to use as a base, especially one with some parts already completed by the fisc, even if those parts need updating.

[Doodle]

Thanks for the info Sue - I will mention it as I'd rather not incur a fine for a PPP I'd not even thought about. So if it increases during the financial year about £100 last year (so far this year decreasing) should I be showing last year's increase as interest on my yearly tax dec, my thinking being that when I finally take some/all of the pot I will list it in the pension box on the tax form and pay tax on it at that time. I hope I"m making sense?

Mrs KG

[suein56]

No you don't declare your pension on forms 2042/2047 until you start to take some income from it, either by a lump sum or by a regular income.

The company name, address etc and your reference number and the date it was started up are all that you mention on the 3916.

[Doodle]

OK got it and thanks again for your help Sue.

[mogs]

On this subject this year when I was 60 I took my whole pension in a one off payment. It was less than 5,000£ and I do not have any income. Where would I declare this one off payment please?

[andyh4]

You could declare this in one of two positions.

1. Declare this as a pension payment (which it is even if there will never be another one) under the foreign incomes section.

2. Declare it as a special payment attracting a flat rate 7.5% income tax.

For only £5000, the latter is not likely to be a tax effective method of declaring.

[suein56]

A few questions .. by this year, do you mean 2018 ?

Was this lump sum from a private pension you alone contributed to ?

Or was it from a private pension paid into by your employer ?

And it was the total amount you withdrew.. so there is nothing left there to draw ?

So it seems that you do not yet receive the state old age pension ?

And you haven't worked in France ?

[mogs]

Thanks Sue.

Yes it was last month.

It was the amount in total so nothing left to take.

I can't remember even signing up for this pension which I assume was from employment, but that would have been more than 15 years ago. I don't work in France. I must have frozen it when I stopped employment but I don't know if my ex employer also paid into it.

No I don't get state pension yet.

Thanks for help

[suein56]

Good news is that as you received this pension this year then you don't declare it until next year.

Then you should be able to declare as a one-time pension, which has a special tax rate if 7.5%. But as Andy says above if you have no other income then perhaps declaring it as he describes would be the better option.

Parsnips, the tax guru, has written at length on here about declaring pensions - so there is plenty of time to check on the best way to declare it before next year.

[parsnips]

Hi,

        IMO the form 3916 is not appropriate for pensions.   The OP's lump sum pension can be declared in two ways ;

  If it is a fairly small amount and the OP normally pays little or no impot sur le revenu - form 2047  page 1 (privé) and 2042 page 3 box 1 AM.

 If large and the OP normally pays impot sur le revenu at around 7% , 2047 page 1 (privé), then 2042 page 3 box 1AT.*

*(Provided the 2019 forms are not changed)

[suein56]

Parsnips wrote : IMO the form 3916 is not appropriate for pensions. 

Could you say why you think that ?

I do remember spending hours reading through the official blurb and looking up meanings of terms and phrases when the range of accounts which needed to be listed on 3916 was enlarged a few years ago.

It was then that I decided to add certain accounts to our list, including a private pension which had not been taken at that point.

Edit : sorry for the previous gobbledygook, I forgot I mustn't try to quote when using my tablet.

[parsnips]

Hi,

Because the OP has a private pension with a pension provider.   IMO that is not a deposit holder.  If it were then anyone with a defined contribution pension scheme  would have to declare it on form 3916 every year .  AFAIK that is not the case,  All the government definitions I have seen refer to "comptes" and it is obvious from what is written that these are seen as deposits lodged with banks or some other agents (notaires etc) to keep money already in the depositor's possession , either with or without the payment of interest.  The object of the form 3916 is to "winkle out" money being "hidden" abroad to avoid tax. 

   That is only my interpretation , for what it's worth.

[Doodle]

Parsnips post jogged my memory re an email I sent to SIP Mayenne 2 years ago re Paypal which I kept (as proof if necessary) and after some digging around found where I'd stored it! . The response was as follows:

Vous devez indiquer sur le formulaire 3916 vos comptes à l'étranger. Le paypal n'est pas un compte bancaire . C'est un moyen de paiement . Il n'est donc pas à indiquer sur le formulaire 3916.

I guess that the reply would indicate that we only supply bank accounts info on the 3916?

Mrs KG

[Daft Doctor]

I must admit that I was surprised when I read the original postings on this thread, as like parsnips I was pretty certain that private pension pots weren't 'comptes' for the purposes of form 3196. This in my opinion would be no different from having, say, an endowment policy in the UK nearing maturity. It may have considerable capital value, and the insurance company would be the holding financial institution. You wouldn't dream of declaring that on 3916, would you, so a private pension plan would, in my opinion, be no different.

[suein56]

Well there you go .. it shows how differently we interpret such matters as I added our as-yet-not-taken pension pot to our list of 3916.

[pomme]

I think you should be declaring an endowment policy. You have to declare foreign assurance vie policies on 3916 (France-based assurance vie are reported to the tax authorities by the French companies). You don't declare the amount, just who is holding the funds on your behalf.

A private pension pot is just another means of saving. You have control over what can be taken and when unlike a state pension or occupational pension.

[suein56]

Likewise I would have added our endowment to our 3916 list except for the fact that we took it out before they decided to enlarge the scope of the type of accounts to be included.

[Daft Doctor]

I guess it does no harm to include the pension pot if it removes any doubt. The situation doesn't affect me as I cashed my pot in last year and will pay the 7.5% special tax on the proceeds, but Mrs DD has a pot in the UK still. I will have a look at the regulations again and go from there.

Just out of interest, I doubt very much that the French authorities would find out about such a pension pot if you didn't declare it on 3916. All of my UK deposit and current account holders have asked about my tax residency situation and for my French TIN, whereas this was not the case with the former holder of my pension pot, nor that of Mrs DD. The UK banks have told me clearly that they have a responsibility to report my accounts to all countries where I am a tax resident, but without our TINs the pension providers aren't able to do this.

[Cathar Tours]

If I were the person asking I wouldn't trust any answer from here because nobody here is a French tax expert and it could cost you hundreds if not thousands of Euros.

You will find that if you email or visit the local French tax office they will be more than helpful if you explain what you have unless of course you are practicing tax evasion. If you can't speak French well enough then use a proper translator (not a "friend"). The cost is about 30 to 40 Euros per hour and it could save you more than you spend. It's what I did for my Father and it if it's wrong then it's their fault not yours.

[suein56]

Daft Doctor wrote : Just out of interest, I doubt very much that the French authorities would find out about such a pension pot if you didn't declare it on 3916 ..

Good point, and for the very reasons you mention.

In my case I am of a nervous disposition and prefer to err totally on the side of caution. If I end up declaring some accounts unnecessarily, so be it.

[mint]

[quote user="Cathar Tours"]If I were the person asking I wouldn't trust any answer from here because nobody here is a French tax expert and it could cost you hundreds if not thousands of Euros.

You will find that if you email or visit the local French tax office they will be more than helpful if you explain what you have unless of course you are practicing tax evasion. If you can't speak French well enough then use a proper translator (not a "friend"). The cost is about 30 to 40 Euros per hour and it could save you more than you spend. It's what I did for my Father and it if it's wrong then it's their fault not yours.[/quote]

I don't agree with this bit of your post.  It's always the fault of the déclarant, if something is wrongly declared.

It's the same if you use an accountant.  If the declaration is wrong, it's YOUR fault because you are the person whose signature is at the bottom of the form.

If you have ever used an accountant, you'd find something in small print that says the responsibility is not theirs.

[parsnips]

Hi,

    Insurance products like endowments ,according to this :-

https://www.impots.gouv.fr/portail/international-particulier/questions/comment-declarer-mes-comptes-et-mes-contrats-dassurance-vie

- should be entered on form 3916 .

   In the days of paper declarations  one had the option of box 8TT which was specifically for insurances abroad , with details on "papier libre", but with  online declaration this is no longer available .  This has caused  misunderstandings- (including mine).

[Cathar Tours]

Well Mint in my fathers case the guy at the Tresor Public wrote the numbers in and I have a witness. Other than that I don't know because I am obviously not so well versed in French legal and tax matters as yourself.

That aside I still would not take advice on this type of thing from any forum, I would seek professional advice. You don't even know where these forum members live and have no way of legally "going after them" if their advice is wrong. I rather suspect you wouldn't get any compensation for their mistake any they certainly won't pay for the correction on your tax form.

[mint]

Naturally, you wouldn't treat as absolutely gospel the advice you get on here, any more than you would advice you receive at your local.

Having said that, if someone in the know like Parsnips says something and also posts a link for you to verify the accuracy of the information, you can gauge whether it "seems" to be correct.

Interpretation of information, yes, that one's tricky as even different fonctionnaires have been known to have their own, varying, takes![:D]

When in doubt, I'd always go to the tax office myself and get an appointment and make sure I have the name of the person dealing with my affairs.  At the end of the interview, I'd ask if they have made a note of my visit.  They like their dossiers, so you can always say that you too like to completer your dossier!