Human rights and Islam

[tegwini]

Now a Muslim WB ???   Strange Christian name you have then.

See other posts re  'race' and Islam.

Kaffir word is actually arabic, and used in a few other posts, not by me   - suggest you also send an appropiate post to them too.

 

[woolybanana]

I won't go into my past and the whys and wherefores, but you shock me deeply with your blind prejudice.

[tegwini]

Sorry to stop the flow, but I have searched and searched to see what happened to Lord Ahmed in january and I can't find a thing- not a result or even a report that sentencing has been further postponed.    Puzzled.

 

There's a surprise then-  other Lords have gone to prison - for less.

Tegwini

[odile]

conversions are not unusual! My OH's grandfather converted to Islam as he was disgusted by the hypocrisy of Christianity (in the 1870s)- he therefore changed his name from a very Christian one to a very Muslim one!  Between OH and I we have about 5 different Christian denominations, and 1 Islam - put us off forever. Definitely agnostic here.

[odile]

having lived in SA you must know how offensive the word kaffir is in SA. My mother-in-law would practically turn green'yellow whenever she uttered the word - with such contempt.

[tegwini]

Odile

'kaffir' is not a SA word- rather Arabic = unbeliever.  They use it about us.

And I have never used it - reminded of it on this thread -  look back, you could perhaps remind who ever it was not to ...

For the record I am British born- ALL my roots here, and I expect I shall have to cope with what the UK will become when you have retired to France/Switz

Tegwini

[woolybanana]

Yes, it is a nasty word in the mouth of a Muslim but even worse in the mouth of a South African white.

[tegwini]

WB

Suggest you read above post!

Doubtless in your holy book!!

[woolybanana]

Just fur thu rekurd, ah wus brought up in Zuid Afrika, you kan verstaaan.

[pachapapa]

[quote user="odile"]I totally agree that 'integrated' muslims should be more vocal in their condemnations of the attacks. Absolutely. I don't know where you have lived Tegwini, but here in Leicester there is a huge number of Muslims who do get on with us and who do condemn extremism openly,  and certainly do not believe their duty is to kill us (please leave the kaffir word in SA). 

[/quote]

The etymology of the word that you find distasteful is more likely to have Zulu/Xhosa origins being derived from the verb form "ukukafula" signifying to expectorate. It would seem probable that it was used pejoratively to describe africans who worked for the white man and particularly those who worked in the diamond mines in Kimberly and the gold mines of the Witwatersrand at the end of the 19th century. When I worked in RSA I expected and insisted that such persons already despised by their own people should address me as Nkosi.

[woolybanana]

It is surely from the Arabic word 'kefir',  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaffir_(ethnic_slur)

[Scooby]

[quote user="tegwini"]

"So Teg were you in the Bretheren? - I have known Plymouth Bretheren and was aware there were a more fundamentalist branch where I lived in UK. From your post it seems not but these people have strong ideals and they must have rubbed off to a point on you".  quote Dog

I only mention this as fundamentalist Christians were mentioned -   I found then to be quite charming, and of no risk whatsoever to the UK.

Tegwini

[/quote]

The same thought had crossed my mind Dog.  I was brought up in a similar fundamentalist church.  It was in that church that my sister had her terrible ordeal.  For me it destroyed any belief I had.  My mother, however, is still a 'fundamental' believer with, I am sad to say, very similar views to Tegwini - which is why the comment struck a chord.  She is extremely pro Israeli / anti Palestinian (views Tegwini expressed quite vehemently in another thread).  She is also anti-muslim and a BNP voter.  She's my mother, and I love her to bits, but I find her views as biggoted and offensive as Tegwinis.  Fear and ignorance breads hatred and emnity - and this fear and hatred is apparent in these anti-muslim posts.  It's this same fear that the BNP (and the gutter press) use very effectively in their campaigns.

From personal experience it is impossible to have a reasoned discussion with anyone with such entrenched opinions as Tegwini, and I am finding this thread increasingly disturbing and offensive and so won't be following it further.  Indeed, I am surprised it hasn't been moderated as some of the comments made seem to be in breach of the TOC. 

[woolybanana]

Yes, there is a very strong pro-Israel lobby in the extreme fundamentalist Christian church. Something to do with the second coming I think, though I am no expert.

[woolybanana]

Another Christian lunatic and fanatic on the loose, but lovely lace dresses!

( fanatic: Etymology: Latin fanaticus inspired by a deity, frenzied, from fanum temple)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7863254.stm

[pachapapa]

More likely I would have thought a Marist Brothers' College. http://www.sthenrys.co.za/site/default.asp

http://mb-soft.com/believe/tfh/marist.htm

[tegwini]

It seems that when people cannot defend the indefensible - Islam's shameful human rights record and its awful treatment of women some people turn to insults and mindless comments.

Hence I am off...    I am reminded of walls and pearls ! 

Tegwini

[odile]

Tegwini, the origin of the word is not important to this debate. Anybody however who has experience of South Africa will now how it was used, and is still used, by Afrikaans, in a racist and derogatory way.

to go back to the real question HOW DO WE GO FORWARDS WITH THE SITUATION WE HAVE NOW- alienating all Muslims is only going to push some of them to extremism, especially young men. You talk about intermarriage as a way forward - my parents married in Switzerland in 1946. My father was ex-communicated, ostracized by his family because mu mother was a divorced protestant. My mother was rejected by her family because she was marrying 'beneath her' - just 60 years ago. My dad aged 96 is terrified of dying because his Catholic up-bringing still resonates in his heart - he has sinned in the eyes of his Faith (there were both Christians for f.... sake!). Of course now if a Catholic and a Protestant want to marry, both priests get together and celebrate the ceremony together. These things take time and can't be imposed. I don't know where you live Tegwini - but Leicester is a very special town and I feel a great example to others. Our problem here IS with sink white estates, where parents and kids have no hope, no respect, no education, no jobs - they used to be industrial fodder, and now there is nowhere for them. It is absolutely tragic- and they turn to the BNP in their resentment. The foreigners are not taking their jobs - they are not qualified, able or motivated for those jobs. It is extremely sad. As a teacher I have tried and tried- and had a few successes- but as I taught French and German- it was very difficult, as they (rightly perhaps- or for sure) didn't think what I had to offer was relevant. But I did motivate some to change their attitude to study and to reach higher, as a dedicated form tutor.

[Dog]

Leicester is said to be the first city to be over 50% asian.

Wellingborough (just a town) managed this ten years ago.

My own view is that the West is not going to change Islam by bombs and bullets.

Just had a idea Teg could be sent with other fundamental christians to proletize - problem solved.

Maybe...

[odile]

Dog- Leicester is now 30% asian - not 50% (as stated last week on Radio 4) - I have a friend who works in the statistical department who is categorical about this.

[Alex H]

[quote user="Dog"]

Leicester is said to be the first city to be over 50% asian.

Wellingborough (just a town) managed this ten years ago.

[/quote]

Wikipedia (whatever you may think of it [:)]) appears to disagree and I do as well, having visited the town many times.

"A sizeable Black Caribbean and Indian/Pakistani community grew up in this small market town, and now represents well over 10% of the total town population."

It seems to be right on Leicester as well

"In terms of districts by ethnic diversity, the City of Leicester is ranked 11th in England. According to 2006 estimates, 58.3% of residents are white British, 3.7%  other white,29.4% Asian or Asian British, 4.6% black or  black British, 2.6% mixed race and 1.5% Chinese or other ethnic group."

[pachapapa]

 

Posted yesterday but no sign of it today![:)] The "kefir" origin comes from the Cape Malay slaves brought to the Cape by Dutch traders from Indonesia/Malaysia. The "malays" already used the term to refer to the Dutch settlers in the Dutch East Indies. On arrival they applied the term to every race, including the hottentots. However during the 1950s there was informed opinion suggesting a derivation from Zulu; this hypothesis also had informed Zulu support. A cursory study of the history of the Nguni speaking tribes in Southern Africa together with the Zulu conquests and domination prior to the time of the "Voortrekers". Their zone of influence included the Matabele in Matabeleland. 

[powerdesal]

I was the one who first used the term 'kaffir' on this thread, and I make no apology for it. I have consulted an Arab colleague at work and the term and spelling are correct in that this is the Arabic term for 'unbelievers', not necessarily non-muslims but anyone who does not believe in God (which God was unspecified). Irrespective of the use of the term in RSA (yes I have lived in Southern / central Africa) it is the correct Quaranic term.

I have no idea of the roots or history of the word and, to be honest, it is academic as this thread is related to Islam not RSA insults.

I also stand by all my posts on this subject with one modification. A discussion this lunchtime indicated that the Quran does not in fact advocate killing un-believers or non Muslims. That aspect is the result of highjacking the Quran by radical Mullahs who have put their own interpretation on the requirements of the Quran. That such a highjacking and misinterpretation is possible is due, in part, to the fact that each Muslim is required to interpret the Quran in his own way and behave accordingly, there being no 'central figure of authority' in Islam.

The radical interpretation appears to have originated in KSA, possibly by the Wahabi sect whose interpretations seem to have gained prominence in the Islamic world.

All this does not alter the central theme that human rights under Islam with the present interpretation do not allow the personal freedoms of speech, dress, behaviour, education etc that we, in the West, are accustomed to.

It should perhaps be noted that 'pure Islam' considers Jews, Christians and Muslims all to be 'children of the book' and that Jesus is in fact revered as a prophet who predated Mohd. You could say that Mohd is the latest version and thus (in Muslim eyes) supercedes Jesus. However, whilst the birthday of Mohd is celebrated as a holiday, I have never met a Muslim who could explain why the birth of Jesus is not equally celebrated in the Islamic calender.

Finally, it is my considered opinion that the present trend of radical Islam is as much a danger as the radical Christianity of the inquisition.

[odile]

the present interpretation  of some , not all. so we need to encourage and support those who have a more positive interpretation- and there are many many of them.

I agree that the interpretation of the Taliban, for instance, is VERY dangerous- as was the inquisition. But Christianity has evolved away from the Inquisition and the Crusades, and even from the dark days of Christian burning other Christians alive, shooting and bombing each other and the children with them, which happened until not very long ago and not very far away! If we radicalise the moderates by exclusion and intolerance - do you feel we will win! I don't mean win by becoming numero uno race or religion- but winning by having tolerance and peace- including the the increasing number of agnostics like me.

You can't magic away our present situation. With tolerance we can include, communicate, share and go FORWARDS. but it won;t be easy - no rose tinted glasses here.

[powerdesal]

Odile,

Unfortunately the 'some' shout the loudest and are heard most, they also have a disproportionate influence on the young, who are, by their age, naturally rebellious (as we were as teenagers) and open to suggestions that they and their culture are under attack by the non-muslim non  believers.

As a result, those youngsters coalesce together into the anti-white gangs in the same way that sink estate yoofs form their post-code gangs.

I dont have the answers, if I did I would be a Leader of Society!!!!!

The fact is that the firebrand rhetoric of the Mullahs has to be curbed, stop the rot at source then address the problem. Its no good treating the symptoms without treating the cause. Of course it does not help when our troops are portrayed as 'invaders' in places such as Afghanistan. I do not personally subscribe to the politically stated reasons for their being there, get them home and let the Afghani people work out their own destiny.

Of course the Islamic nutters would claim a victory, so what? It would one less provocation or excuse for anti West action.

Address the radical Mullah issue. Deportation if necessary (and it would be)

Do not pander to demands for special treatment / consideration, treat all as equals, a secular state.

Comments such as that reported from Lord Ahmed along the lines of 'I will bring ten thousand Muslims etc' should be stamped on immediately.

Abolish such entities as the 'Muslim Council for Britain (or whatever)' there is no place for such divisiveness. It creates and fosters a 'them vs us ' situation.

Offer one way tickets out of Britain for those who cannot or will not accept that Britain is not a Muslim country, and that immigrants are expected to integrate into the existing society, not expect that society to change for them. Those that accept the British way of life (warts and all ) are most welcome to stay. It does not mean they have to deny or reject their own culture, they  do however have to accept that it is not necessarily the British culture, and indigenous culture takes precedence.

As I said in an earlier post, restrict immigration for as long as it takes to be happy with the integration of the existing immigrants. Then reassess the situation.

I could go on but, as I have zero influence it would be a pointless exercise.

[odile]

I will agree that a secular state would be an excellent idea - but that won't happen. Our country since Henry VIII is so closely linked to one form of Christianity - which is a very strange breed of Christianity (very apparent to those who were not born in UK) - with the huge variety of beliefs and traditions, low and high, pro women or anti, tolerant of gays or not. Neither Catholic, nor Protestant.  I wonder how many different Christian sub-groups, sects there are in the UK. I certainly believe this close link with Chruch and Government should be severed, first with the reform of the House of Lords. As long as we want to keep CofE and Catholic schools, we won't be able to stop the multiplication with the divisiveness it creates.

Why is it 'pandering' to try and allow people to be different, as long as they integrate. I have to say that most of the Asians I know here speak a lot better English than most British ex-pats speak French- and that goes for a lot of other things to. And before you say 'ah but we are well-off and we don't sponge on the State' - the Asian community brings huge amount of revenue and taxes here. I believe it is possible to be different  AND  be integrated, as is shown by a huge number of people here. Most families here are on the third generation. 2nd generation usually speak perfect English with their kids, and only their language (there are so many) with elders or during family/communtiy gatherings. These people have aspirations, are doing well in their business and professions - if we allow them to progress with tolerance for their 'differences' they will slowly drown the rest.

I am so sorry I am now on my own here. As you say very possibly pointless and futile. It is tragic. My son-in-law was brought up in Northern Ireland - and now my little grandson will have to grow up in a divided and sectarian society too.