Human rights and Islam

[tegwini]

"Women don't do to well in the West either - for instance they are losing their jobs quicker than men in UK at the moment" quote Dog.

Perhaps   - I have no knowledge of stats. on this.  But whether women don't do too well in the world of work, at least they are allowed to work, and  do have equal status to men in  education, health,  law,  etc.   On this most Muslim states are centuries behind most western states.

Tegwini

 

[Dog]

[quote user="tegwini"]

Thank you Gluestick

And, well put too. 

We moan about the state of our governments - France UK ... but at least we can do that and not fear imprisonment.  

Another example  to illustrate the backward nature of some Islamic states is the  missionary couple in the Gambia who both got a year's hard labour for sending emails that criticised the Muslim state.  

 That's why so many in the west object to the spread of Islam in Europe.

Regards

Tegwini

Campaign in UK to end the monarchy and/or tell people not to vote and you will find yourself in a very secure place.

[/quote]

[Clarkkent]

With respect to Human Rights and Islam - you may find this recent article from the Independent to be of interest:

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/johann-hari/johann-hari-why-should-i-respect-these-oppressive-religions-1517789.html

[Gluestick]

Mr Hari will no doubt shortly be visited by the NuLab Thought Police and accused of both Race Hate and Religious Hate crimes.....................

He will also be awarded the sobriquet of "Racist" for daring to speak the truth.

Many thanks for posting this excellent item, CK.

 

[tegwini]

"Campaign in UK to end the monarchy and/or tell people not to vote and you will find yourself in a very secure place"

Was that a quote gone wrong Dog ??

 I do NOT believe you would would end up in a secure place for such ! In fact many in the UK are republicans and say so - even the odd MP.  As for voting , well !   all know we could say such-    just research it.

 Quote gives the impression I said that and I DID NOT.

Suggest you read the link provided by CK  mentioning that you can end up in prison even in Egypt for  disagreeing with Sharia law and merely saying so!

If we have lost some freedoms in the UK, then people in some Islamic countries have less freedom that our ancestors had many hundreds of years ago.

Tegwini

[just john]

This debate certainly helps my understanding of the attitudes during the conflicts of the Crusades, though I hoped we had moved off the edge of the cliff since then; perhaps its time to lighten things up folks,
howsabout a laugh now, A Collection of Islamic Jokes - IslamCan.com 

[Dog]

[quote user="tegwini"]

"Campaign in UK to end the monarchy and/or tell people not to vote and you will find yourself in a very secure place"

Was that a quote gone wrong Dog ??

 I do NOT believe you would would end up in a secure place for such ! In fact many in the UK are republicans and say so - even the odd MP.  As for voting , well !   all know we could say such-    just research it.

 Quote gives the impression I said that and I DID NOT.

Suggest you read the link provided by CK  mentioning that you can end up in prison even in Egypt for  disagreeing with Sharia law and merely saying so!

If we have lost some freedoms in the UK, then people in some Islamic countries have less freedom that our ancestors had many hundreds of years ago.

Tegwini

[/quote]

 

Yes I did mean that it was those pesky non matching quotey things interfering again.

I think I am correct in saying both campaigning to end the monarchy and encouraging people not to vote are both illegal and can result in prison sentences in the UK.

You can still get the death penalty for killing the Queen or raping her. One law for one, one for another.

I have been bullied by some afro-caribbeans on national poetry day who invited themselves to a poetry event and then insisted all poems should be on the theme of slavery. Then said it was us people with no skin colour that had imposed it upon them and we were all evil.

I tried to explain it was some rich people that exploited them and for the average working man in Britain three hundred years ago wasn't much fun either. Maybe they could look further afield for the perpetrators ie Arab slave traders in the wholesale market.

I would think as many people have little freedom through poverty as through Islamic standards today.

UK law has come indirectly from Muslim law and has some simularites today.

 

 

[woolybanana]

And your Christian values are no less barbaric?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1130007/Watchdog-bans-Christian-advert-claims-cervical-cancer-vaccine-causes-infertility.html

[tegwini]

"UK law has come indirectly from Muslim law and has some simularites today".   quote DOG

No, not so.

Too much on Wikipedia & not reading it carefully.  And Wikipedia is NOT the best place for information anyway.  

We had the beginnings of English Common Law way before the emergence of Islam (Muhommed borm ca. 570 - 632). Islam spread across the Arabian peninsula, north Africa  and parts of Asia Minor and it took a  hundred years before they reached Spain, and thanks to Charles Martel they were stopped near Poitiers in 732. 

Muslim conquests and conversion were  'by the sword' - convert or die! 

Alfred the Great (849-899) in southern England was one of the first to attempt to codify the laws, many of which had been around for ages. Other Anglo-Saxon kings contributed, as did the Norman, Plantagenet and Angevin kings and their  clerics and scholars.

Many laws are similar because they are based on the Bible, and the Biblical peoples (Judaism, Christianity and Islam) had some similar ideas, but you could say that about laws elsewhere too.  The Magna Carta, and other Cartas followed, and so very different from anything we see in Sharia law today. For example, in Magna Carta 1215 we have the rights of a widow safeguarded.   In Islam - ??!!   Didn't Muhammed marry a few, and even a child.   This would have been against the law  in England then.  

The Christian church did a lot to safeguard the rights of women and children then, which were not great by today's standards, but eons better than in parts of the Islamic world  today!! 

"I would think as many people have little freedom through poverty as through Islamic standards today". quote DOG 

I am not sure what you mean here,   an ambiguous statement.

Tegwini

 

[Dog]

[quote user="tegwini"]

"UK law has come indirectly from Muslim law and has some simularites today".   quote DOG

No, not so.

Too much on Wikipedia & not reading it carefully.  And Wikipedia is NOT the best place for information anyway.  

We had the beginnings of English Common Law way before the emergence of Islam (Muhommed borm ca. 570 - 632). Islam spread across the Arabian peninsula, north Africa  and parts of Asia Minor and it took a  hundred years before they reached Spain, and thanks to Charles Martel they were stopped near Poitiers in 732. 

Muslim conquests and conversion were  'by the sword' - convert or die! 

Alfred the Great (849-899) in southern England was one of the first to attempt to codify the laws, many of which had been around for ages. Other Anglo-Saxon kings contributed, as did the Norman, Plantagenet and Angevin kings and their  clerics and scholars.

Many laws are similar because they are based on the Bible, and the Biblical peoples (Judaism, Christianity and Islam) had some similar ideas, but you could say that about laws elsewhere too.  The Magna Carta, and other Cartas followed, and so very different from anything we see in Sharia law today. For example, in Magna Carta 1215 we have the rights of a widow safeguarded.   In Islam - ??!!   Didn't Muhammed marry a few, and even a child.   This would have been against the law  in England then.  

The Christian church did a lot to safeguard the rights of women and children then, which were not great by today's standards, but eons better than in parts of the Islamic world  today!! 

"I would think as many people have little freedom through poverty as through Islamic standards today". quote DOG 

I am not sure what you mean here,   an ambiguous statement.

Tegwini

 

[/quote]

No wikidpedia - R4 must be giving me propaganda again.

You will be glad to know I have held one of the Magna Cartas.

I meant poverty is a bigger cause of lose of freedom.

What's up Teg has a Muslim family moved in next door?

Look on the bright side - a good curry and with sharia law no more thieving and  housebreaking.

I have never been treated other than very well in Muslim countries so give them the benefit of the doubt.

[Gluestick]

[quote]

UK law has come indirectly from Muslim law and has some simularites today.[/quote]

What total nonsense!

England's laws came basically from the Church and the Ten Commandments: so if our laws owe much to any society it is Judaeism.

Cannonical Law was an important branch of English law and still enjoys effect today: for example, anyone living within a C of E parish can insist on being both married and buried in the parish church.

Etc.

 

[Gluestick]

[quote user="just john "]

This debate certainly helps my understanding of the attitudes during the conflicts of the Crusades, though I hoped we had moved off the edge of the cliff since then; perhaps its time to lighten things up folks,
howsabout a laugh now, A Collection of Islamic Jokes - IslamCan.com 

[/quote]

Near the top:

[quote]

A man is taking a walk in Central park in New York. Suddenly he sees a little girl being attacked by a pit bull dog . He runs over and starts fighting with the dog. He succeeds in killing the dog and saving the girl's life. A policeman who was watching the scene walks over and says: "You are a hero, tomorrow you can read it in all the newspapers: "Brave New Yorker saves the life of little girl" The man says: - "But I am not a New Yorker!" "Oh ,then it will say in newspapers in the morning: 'Brave American saves life of little girl'" – the policeman answers. "But I am not an American!" – says the man. "Oh, what are you then? " The man says: - "I am a Saudi !" The next day the newspapers says: "Islamic extremist kills innocent American dog.
[/quote]

And if I changed the context and set the tale in, say Islamabad, and the ethnicity of the "Hero" as say British WASP,  then it would be deemed racist..........................

 

[tegwini]

So where did you hold a Magna Carta ? Not many around.

No real  or Muslim neighbours   Dog - in the New Forest nearly all WASP types - only one neighbour (fields, forest on 2 sides), the neighbour , ex-para Major, and he's worse than me. 

Quite like curry, and OH has a few Hindu friends and clients, eaten with them and fed them here, but not curry!  Been to the odd Hindu wedding too.  Nice people.

No just a female,  dog lover too, and I don't like the way Islam is spreading, and what it represents.  Also dislike the way our political masters compromise and give in for the sake of being PC.

Tegwini

[Dog]

[quote user="Gluestick"][quote]

UK law has come indirectly from Muslim law and has some simularites today.[/quote]

What total nonsense!

England's laws came basically from the Church and the Ten Commandments: so if our laws owe much to any society it is Judaeism.

Cannonical Law was an important branch of English law and still enjoys effect today: for example, anyone living within a C of E parish can insist on being both married and buried in the parish church.

Etc.

 

[/quote]

It is difficult in most parishes to be buried in a churchyard there just isn't room.

My  father was churchwarden for many years and has pre-bought myself and brothers and sister plots. He didn't ask first - I would prefer to be burnt and thrown in the Ganges.

The C of  E will bury satanists - really? Tell me more.

 

[tegwini]

Dog

"You will be glad to know I have held one of the Magna Cartas" .quote DOG

So where did you    HOLD  a Magna Carta ?

But,  were you able to read it ???   Could you understand its language ??

Tegwini

[odile]

there are almost as many ways of being a Christian than there is of being a Muslim. think of Mormons, Seventh Day Advantists and the Amish. I had an Amish family in my last school - girls wore long skirts and scarves and had to leave school at 15. Not that one wrong makes another right. Religion is just trouble all round!

[Scooby]

[quote user="Dog"]

They still retain many useful laws that the rest of the world especially in the current economic state could and would have benefited from.

The refusal to allow interest to be made on money is a basic and very good law.[/quote]

Sharia finance does allow interest to be charged - they just call it something else!

Not sure why the christian church is being held up as a paragon of virtue against the muslim faith.  There is as much evil in the christian churches than in the muslim faith.  Probably more.  The difference is that much of it is dressed up or covered up.

[Gluestick]

[quote user="Scooby"]Not sure why the christian church is being held up as a paragon of virtue against the muslim faith.  There is as much evil in the christian churches than in the muslim faith.  Probably more.  The difference is that much of it is dressed up or covered up.
[/quote]

Where was it, within this thread? [8-)]

The only positive comment on the Christian church was Tegwini's vis a vis protection of the rights of women and children.

 

[Scooby]

That's the one I was referring to - the inference that the christian church is more benevolent and virtuous than it's islamic counterpart.

[Thibault]

Getting back to te OP's original point - some of the socio-cultural interpretations of Islamic principles are a cause of concern with regard to their effect on the treatment of women.  What happened to women and girls in Afghanistan when the Taliban were the government was terrible - even widows prevented from going to work and no help with food aid, etc - and all qualified women doctors, lawyers etc prevented from working.  No education for any females.

Even in UK we have "honour" killings.  This stems from the belief that the "honour" of a tribe/clan/family resides in its women.  This allows such terrible things as that case in (was it Pakistan?) a few years ago when a young woman was ganged raped to "punish" HER BROTHER, who had made unacceptable "approaches" to another girl.

Even the question of the burka is down to culture, not the teachings of the Koran, which merely states that women should be dressed "modestly".

We should all be concerned that some elements in the muslim population, who have migrated to parts of the "Western" world, want to impose these socio-cultural beliefs on our society.  We should also be concerned at the "Talibanisation" of attitudes towards women in countries such as Iraq etc.

[tegwini]

Quite right Gluestick

Faults and errors in the Christian church - and they admit them too,  and we can criticise, or prosecute the church too, without punishment, imprisonment, or even death.  

 It is clearly better to live in a Christian society than in a Muslim one hence the huge numbers already here, and trying to come here.

Western countries are amazingly tolerant- enormous mosques, eg the giant one in London.  Wonder how many in  Moslem countries, eg Saudi Arabia ?   Are there any ?

I know where I would prefer to be- as a female and a dog lover.   HERE in the west !!!

 Come to think of it, aren't women and dogs given a similar status in parts of the Islamic world ?

Tegwini

[tegwini]

HI DOG

Still no reply!

"You will be glad to know I have held one of the Magna Cartas" .   quote DOG

So where did you    HOLD  a Magna Carta ?

Goodness me Dog, you can't be telling a whopper, a little untruth, being economical with the truth, can you ?

I would not be glad to hear such - since I know it's utter rot. And it would not prove that you know anything about it,  or the evolution of English Common Law. You have proved that already.

Tegwini

[Scooby]

You comment on muslims spreading their faith by the sword - but isn't that what the crusaders did?

And as for it being better to be a woman or child in the christian church, I would beg to differ. My (then minor) sister was abducted and raped by a church 'leader'...and the offender was protected by the church hierarchy.  It changed my view on the established church forever.

[Gluestick]

[quote user="Scooby"]You comment on muslims spreading their faith by the sword - but isn't that what the crusaders did?[/quote]

Not me wot said that I'm afraid guv!

[quote]And as for it being better to be a woman or child in the christian church, I would beg to differ. My (then minor) sister was abducted and raped by a church 'leader'...and the offender was protected by the church hierarchy.  It changed my view on the established church forever.
[/quote]

I believe we were discussing the issue in generalist and philosophical terms; not specifics.

I know of a butcher who murdered a customer.

Are all butchers therefore predisposed to murder their customers?

There is copious empirical evidence of the core reality that women are "Objects" in many Islamic states: and treated identically by Muslim families who have migrated to Western Europe.

And as Thibault has just commented, much of the expected behavioural dictums are cultural and not tenets of Qu'ran.

Indeed, Qu'ran dictates that women are to be treated completely differently to what actually transpires.

Notwithstanding these tenets, migrating Muslims demand the imposition of their cultural idiosyncrasies upon the host state, to that country's detriment, the detriment and destruction of its extant cultural fabric and wholly against a majority of its existing citizens!

And the idiot left Wing Liberal Ivory Tower Dwelling apologies for Ministers of State, bend over backwards to accommodate them!

It beggars belief.............................

[Cat]

[quote user="CJR"]

 

 

Allah or the Lord Jesus Christ?

 

The Muslim religion is by far the fastest  growing religion in the UK . 
 
Last month I attended my annual training session that's required for maintaining my prison security clearance. During the training session there was a presentation by three speakers representing the Roman Catholic, Protestant and Muslim faiths, who explained each of their beliefs. 
  
I was particularly interested in what the Islamic Imam had to say. The Imam gave a great presentation of the basics of Islam, complete with a video.
 
After the presentations, time was provided for questions and answers. 
 
When it was my turn, I directed my question to the Imam and asked: 
 
'Please, correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand that most Imams and clerics of Islam have declared a holy jihad [Holy war] against the  infidels of the world and, that by killing an infidel, (which is a command to all Muslims) they are assured of a place in heaven.
 
If that's the case, can you give me the definition of an infidel?'
 
There was no disagreement with my statements and, without hesitation, he replied, 'Non-believers!'
 
I responded, 'So, let me make sure I have this straight. All followers of Allah have been commanded to kill everyone who is not of your faith so they can have a place in heaven. Is that correct?' 
  

The expression on his face changed from one of authority and command to that of  'a little boy who had just been caught with his hand in the cookie jar.' 
  
He sheepishly replied, 'Yes.' 
 
I then stated, 'Well, I have a real problem trying to imagine Pope Benedict commanding all Catholics to kill those of your faith or Dr. Stanley ordering all Protestants to do the same in order to guarantee them a place in heaven!' 
 
The Imam was speechless! 
 
I continued, 'I also have a problem with being your 'friend' when you and your brother clerics are telling your followers to kill me! Let me ask you a question. Would you rather have your Allah, who tells you to kill me in order for you to go to heaven, or my Jesus who tells me to love you  because I am going to heaven and He wants you to be there with me?' 
  
You could have heard a pin drop as the Imam remained speechless. 
 
Needless to say, the organizers and promoters of the 'Diversification' training seminar were not happy with this way of dealing with the Islamic Imam and exposing the truth about the Muslims' beliefs.     
  

Within twenty years there will be enough Muslim voters in the U..K. to elect a government of their choice, complete with sharia law.   
  
I think everyone in the U.K. should be required to read this, but with the Liberal justice system, liberal media and the political correctness madness, there is no way this will be widely publicised.   
 
Please pass this on to all your e-mail contacts.    
 
John Harrison MBE. MIDSc

 

[/quote]

Sorry CJR, but that's a fake that's been doing the rounds since 2003.  Those are not the words of an Imam, and it has nothing whatsoever to do with John Harrison. 

http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/allah.asp