Bugsy Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 [quote user="Dog"]Using hi-tech weapons against backwoodsmen in Afghanistan is hardy courageous..................It's hardly heroic to wipe out hundreds of people with computer-guided weapons. [/quote]I've expressed my views on this subject earlier and have nothing to add, but I must take you to task on this point Dog.I don't think the use of suicide bombers and roadside landmines is particularly courageous or heroic either.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powerdesal Posted March 12, 2009 Author Share Posted March 12, 2009 [quote user="Dog"] The people that chose to become paid killers for the country did have a choice - they did not have to join.Sadly in UK and USA for instance there is such little chance of any or reasonably paid employment especially in some areas of the country that young men who think in the foolishness of youth it is adventurous, and join the forces as it pays well - they have a 'career structure' - they don't have to think too much and get fed and a bed and a good pension.Sadly it is too late for many when they realise what they are expected to do for the rich monarchs shilling and seem to forget history as in the the previous century monarchs sent millions of innocents to certain death as the monarchs played a game of living chess with their relatives and the blood of their citizens.The money that has been wasted on war is criminal. Last year it cost everyone in UK £6,000.The money would be better spent in the UK or on helping building a better Afghanistan.I also think one of the forgotten waste of money is the way Officers in the UK forces get wined and dined on tax payers money - they live like - well - very very well to ensure complete obedience to the monarch.Get real the purpose of the army is not to produce anything but death and destruction![/quote]Dog, its all in the semantics.You may call the Military 'paid killers' and I would not totally disagree on a basic level, however I would prefer to describe the Military as paid employees of the British people who are required, if necessary, to kill in defence of Britain, its people and its interests.I agree totally that the present wars are not necessary and that our lives and treasure should not be squandered in Iraq or Afghanistan. Whether that treasure should be used to build a better Afghanistan is a different argument.Your comment regarding Officers in the UK Forces being wined and dined on tax payers money is, quite honestly, total bulls**t. As an ex Royal Air Force Officer and subsequently an Officer in the Royal Regt of Wales (TA) I can assure you that I and my fellow Officers would love to have had the taxpayer fund our wining and dining, unfortunately we had to pay for ourselves. Just as you have to pay the bill if you dine out at a restaurant the Military Officers pay to dine in their respective Messes. In fact ALL meals are paid for by members of the Forces, from the lowest rank to the highest. The costs come from their pay, as do your costs.How well any Officer lives is related to his salary level and how he wishes to spend his pay, just as how well a civilian lives is related to his income. Complete obediance to the Monarch is not a factor in life style. It is a factor in that the Military swear allegiance to the Monarch and promise to honour and defend said Monarch.Your definition of the purpose of the Military is not correct, the purpose, as I have effectively stated previously, is to defend and protect Britain, the British people and their interests from anyone who would threaten them or do them harm. Death and destruction are sometimes a result of such protection, if deterrance does not work.It really is time you woke up to reality.Your comment in a later post about having a budget and 50 consciencious objectors and the problem could be solved is quite honestly the most ridiculous comment I have ever read from you. You and your fellow conscientious objectors wouldn't last 10 minutes in either Iraq or (particularly) Afghanistan. The locals would take the money happily and then destroy you. You would (in their eyes) be seen as a weak easy touch, their culture is tribal and respects strength. I can say this with total confidence because I have spent 20+ years working and living in a society that includes very many people from those tribal backgrounds. The tribal culture in Afghanistan particularly is hard line Muslim, gun orientated and dismissive of the weak, effete and morally decadent west."I do wonder about the amount of ex-service people, policemen and civil servants who take their early retirement and index linked pensions and vote with their feet by moving abroad to places like France."You presumably think that anyone who is not private industry, or ex private industry, should not have the freedom of movement that you possess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dog Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 We do agree on one thing then - I am glad you agree that the present wars are unnecessaryYou know as well as I do that the small contribution from wages goes little way towards the fine wining and dining of officers.You may be weak, effete and morally decadent after a cushy life in the RAF - I have travelled in Muslim countries which are as you have described and been treated with great welcome.Don't worry about the money - that was for me and my 50 employees !The forces and politicians want and need to demonise people to keep their jobs.The point I was making about ex-public employees taking their pensions and running abroad shows in my mind that they realise the dream their employers were giving is a sham.It may be a good idea that these fine upstanding people - model citizens - should have their pensions halved if they decide to live abroad - after all why should the public pay through the nose to have public money spent abroad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russethouse Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 And there was me thinking that the forces fought for our right to do we we liked, and theirs......As for your last idea - time to put the wooden spoon away.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dog Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 [quote user="Russethouse"][quote user="Dog"] I find it incredible that you ignore reality - I call them paid killers you call them defenders that kill enemies to look after me?It doesn't matter how many O levels or degrees you have if there are no real jobs testosterone fueled lads will join the army or become thugs elsewhere.Why is is that the only thing the English can agree about is war?You have been sold lie after lie and you now believe it.I do wonder about the amount of ex-service people, policemen and civil servants who take their early retirement and index linked pensions and vote with their feet by moving abroad to places like France.Using hi-tech weapons against backwoodsmen in Afghanistan is hardy courageous. Do the Afghans have airplanes, helicopters, night vision, cluster bombs etc etc etc. It's hardly heroic to wipeout hundreds of people with computer guided weapons.Give me a 5th of the budget and 50 consciencious objectors and the problem could be solved.[/quote]Firstly the 'Forces' still offer an excellent career if it appeals, I know a girl who was interested in sport and languages. The army backed her sporting activities and trained her in additional languages that she now uses in the defence of our country, she was similarly qualified to ValBs son.....You also seem to somehow link the soldiers with their deployment - they go where they are sent and do the job to the best of their ability. If the population of Britain don't like it they have to make a different choice at the election box, not shout at soldiers in the street.Why is is that the only thing the English can agree about is warWhere were you when people marched against us going into Iraq ? What makes you think the ' English' agree ? [/quote] The idea that the military supports careers is not what it is there for.I have a cousin who was a top runner - he got poached by the RAF just because he ran fast!!!He did pratically nothing but train to run - how on earth does this help the country.It's no wonder the UK has gone down the pan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
valB Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 So this is what it is all about, jelousy, men who served for half their lives in the Military coming out with a pension then having the audcity to come to France. Well, this will really p**s you off. My husband has a Naval pension as he served for 24 years in Submarines chasing the Russians out of our waters. Also, my eldest son has a small war pension as his leg was shattered in the Falklands War so what a despicable family we are. But at least my eldest son is still living in the UK so we are not totally decadent. Get a life and get over it Dog. OH yes, my Father was deaf due to the awful geovernment forcing him to join the Army in the second world war protecting the UK from invasion and he was on ak ak guns and he did not see me for three years but he did not get a pension or come to France to live so he must have been an OK guy in your eyes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dog Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 Don't start me on the Malvinas. What a waste of people, time and money.I made a suggestion that public pensions may not be best spent abroad in the interests of the people that have to pay for them. Think about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cat Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 What kind of jet engines did your father design Dog? Nothing used by the RAF I hope [:'(] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
valB Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 We paid all our taxes while working in UK and we still pay tax on our pensions in the UK. So instead of having a pop at us here in France have a go at all the lazy ones who have no intention of working in the UK and I am not talking about the poor people who have recently lost jobs. I am talking about the " bad back " brigade. They are the leeches not us here in France. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DerekJ Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 [quote user="Dog"]The point I was making about ex-public employees taking their pensions and running abroad shows in my mind that they realise the dream their employers were giving is a sham.It may be a good idea that these fine upstanding people - model citizens - should have their pensions halved if they decide to live abroad - after all why should the public pay through the nose to have public money spent abroad.[/quote]So, let's take this to its logical conclusion shall we?Every ex public service employee drawing a pension should have their pension reduced pro rata for every day they spend out of the country shall we? When they go on holiday for a couple of weeks or so?btw, I've no axe to grind on this one... I'm not from the public sector. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russethouse Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 Why discriminate, lets make it ALL pensions ....do you get a pension from the UK Dog ?[6] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powerdesal Posted March 12, 2009 Author Share Posted March 12, 2009 [quote user="Dog"]We do agree on one thing then - I am glad you agree that the present wars are unnecessary My views on the present wars have never been a secret.You know as well as I do that the small contribution from wages goes little way towards the fine wining and dining of officers. 'The small contribution'----I wish !!!!. I left the Royal Air Force when I became tired of supplementing my salary from my savings. Mess bills are NOT a small contribution. Many functions are compulsory and are paid for by the Officer at full cost. My last C.O. openly told me that he did not expect to see me in the Mess more than necessary because, with a young family, he realised that I could not afford it.Get your facts straight before posting bullshit.You may be weak, effete and morally decadent after a cushy life in the RAF - I have travelled in Muslim countries which are as you have described and been treated with great welcome. I have lived and worked as a civilian in Muslim countries, day in day out, not as a tourist passing through. A life as an Engineer Officer in the RAF was certainly not cushy, interesting yes, rewarding (not financially) yes, cushy NO Don't worry about the money - that was for me and my 50 employees ! 51 employees and 20% of the present budget !!!! not cost effective.The forces and politicians want and need to demonise people to keep their jobs. CobblersThe point I was making about ex-public employees taking their pensions and running abroad shows in my mind that they realise the dream their employers were giving is a sham. Its called Freedom, something you enjoy, defended by people you despise.It may be a good idea that these fine upstanding people - model citizens - should have their pensions halved if they decide to live abroad - after all why should the public pay through the nose to have public money spent abroad. Taxed in UK, spent in Europe possibly, we are all Europeans now aren't we. Where do you spend your money Dog, and where is it generated?[/quote]edit, must go in a little while, plane to catch, paid for (of course) by my French employer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powerdesal Posted March 12, 2009 Author Share Posted March 12, 2009 [quote user="Dog"]Don't start me on the Malvinas. What a waste of people, time and money.I made a suggestion that public pensions may not be best spent abroad in the interests of the people that have to pay for them. Think about it. [/quote]Falklands, not Malvinas, ask the people who live there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powerdesal Posted March 12, 2009 Author Share Posted March 12, 2009 I guess my family are beyond the pale where Dog and his ilk are concerned:-Father. RAF regularFather in Law REME regularMe RAF regular and RRW (TA)Son R.E regularSon in Law RLC regularGrandson RAF regular to be.Grand daughter ARMY regular to beNext Grandson R.N. regular to be.There is no hope for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
valB Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 Well Dog, I am off now....to fight a War with the weeds in my garden. I would like to say it has been a pleasure chatting with you but is wasn't and after weeding we are off to spend some of our pensions. Byeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 I don't know why you lot give this guy the time of day, he is clearly winding you up. He claims a lot of things that he is not and has been caught out in a few forums and outed (thats not a hint he is somebody else that we know of by the way) here before. All you do is fuel his fantasies. He is not worth the energy used to move your fingers and type a response. Just ignore him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frederick Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 He is doing it again......cast another bait into the pond .... this one has pensions and Falklands written in it ....dont rise to it and you wont get hooked and he cant play with you ....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dog Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 [quote user="Cat"]What kind of jet engines did your father design Dog? Nothing used by the RAF I hope [:'(][/quote]Lol some yes - but are we to be blamed for the sins of our fathers?... and he got out of National Service being in a protected occupation.I have always got at him about these airplanes that have only one use -death.I vist a chum of his in USA a lovely old guy but some of the weapons he designed would make your hair curl.Luckily most are/were used in passenger airlines and in industrial applications. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dog Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 [quote user="Quillan"]I don't know why you lot give this guy the time of day, he is clearly winding you up. He claims a lot of things that he is not and has been caught out in a few forums and outed (thats not a hint he is somebody else that we know of by the way) here before. All you do is fuel his fantasies. He is not worth the energy used to move your fingers and type a response. Just ignore him.[/quote] When and what have I claimed to be?I am definately not a Mason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dog Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 [quote user="powerdesal"]I guess my family are beyond the pale where Dog and his ilk are concerned:-Father. RAF regularFather in Law REME regularMe RAF regular and RRW (TA)Son R.E regularSon in Law RLC regularGrandson RAF regular to be.Grand daughter ARMY regular to beNext Grandson R.N. regular to be.There is no hope for us.[/quote]It's nothing to do with being beyond the pale - how many people do you think will have to work to pay for all those non-productive jobs and early retirements? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dog Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 Falklands, not Malvinas, ask the people who live there. Only since 1833. All the people born there have Argentine Nationality.What a waste of time, money and lives fighting over a glorified sheep pen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catalpa Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 [quote user="powerdesal"]I guess my family are beyond the pale where Dog and his ilk are concerned:-[/quote]If you are beyond Dog's pale, you can be very proud. I would be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dog Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 "...I want to kill. I mean, I wanna, I wanna kill. Kill. I wanna, I wanna see, I wanna see blood and gore and guts and veins in my teeth. Eat dead burnt bodies. I mean kill, Kill, KILL, KILL." And I started jumpin up and down yelling, "KILL, KILL," andhe started jumpin up and down with me and we was both jumping up and downyelling, "KILL, KILL." And the sargeant came over, pinned a medal on me,sent me down the hall, said, "You're our boy."Arlo Gutherie - lyrics from Alices Restaurant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dog Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
odile Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 to SUIT THE MODERATORS ???? is this a first? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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