Dyson talking sense but will the dickheads in power listen?

[woolybanana]

He is so right but how to change a national mindset?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/personal-view/5149129/Britain-must-start-making-things-again.html

[tegwini]

Wooly-  I quite agree, but lots of this originates with our useless socialist government.

Recently we have bought some bog standard things :    car trailer, filing cabinet (low tech) and shopped around a bit, bought new, and neither made in the UK.  Does this make sense ?  (both from France- no shame there is being an artisan).

Sadly this useless government wants so many to go on to university to get a useless degree followed by a 'Mac' job.   Is this to massage employment figures ?  And, still, even now,  a shortage of artisans/tradesmen.  And soon all kids at school to 18! 

 

[Théière]

It's a little rich from someone who took production abroad. It did mean that I didn't feel guilty buying a German vacuum cleaner.

When I were a lad..........

Apprentices earn't next to nothing, used old war department equipment incapable of producing work at the rate required to compete with the world in filthy smelly workshops. (A bad workman blames his tools) A really stupid remark, as wornout old equipment was used to produce some excellent work but at a quarter of the speed of the foreign competion, so manufacturing ground to a halt.

Young girls could leave school and work in a nice clean environment with free private medical, dentistry and non contributary pension schemes, now why do you think GB changed?

EDIT: It was during the rein of Margaret T that apprentiships were scrapped, explain why socialists destroyed the industries please Tegwini.

[woolybanana]

The Unions wanted the apprentiships to go if I remember as most of the work was just assembling.

Had investment been taxed less UK would have modernized.

By the way, have you seen the problems that Dyson has had to open his Engineering school?

 

[woolybanana]

Actually it is down to Education and role models. If we put technology at the top of the agenda and not cruddy media personalities, give priority to Science and Technology (and lots of scholarships and reduced fees), then a start will be made.

[Théière]

Can you evidence that Wooly? Mrs T never listened to the unions.

It certainly was not just assembling whilst I was there and with the state of the machinery a skill was required to produce anything. If all the assembling had been mechanised like our foreign competition then I may agree but that never happened until Toyota and Nissan showed us how to do it.

No I haven't seen Dyson's problems, what are they? lost a lot of patience with him after production was moved abroard.

 

[Théière]

[quote user="woolybanana"]Actually it is down to Education and role models. If we put technology at the top of the agenda and not cruddy media personalities, give priority to Science and Technology (and lots of scholarships and reduced fees), then a start will be made.[/quote]

Agree whole heartedly, the inventer British, who saved his company with the flexible twin blade razor received half a bottle of brandy and a watermark pen set on his retirement. (the company also owned watermark) High praise

[woolybanana]

The damage was done before Thatcher I am afraid. In the late sixties it began and beyond. Too much emphasis on the social State and not enough money left to invest in technology. Bad management, bad unions and a bad attitude as UK lived on past glories.

Thatcher cleared the dead wood and gave an opportunity to rebuild but that opportunity has been totally squandered by succeeding governments.

Dyson wanted to build his Engineering school at a site outside bath but after first encouraging him, the local council caused so many barriers to be put in his way that he was talking of going to the USA. And we are talking of an investment of hundreds of millions.

[BJSLIV]

Strange that what he admires is a result of massive state intervention. Precisely the kind of intervention that many contributors on this site consistently despise.

In  France, things were different: they invested in car production, the TGV train network, aeroplane manufacture and nuclear power.

[Théière]

[quote user="woolybanana"]

The damage was done before Thatcher I am afraid. In the late sixties it began and beyond. Too much emphasis on the social State and not enough money left to invest in technology. Bad management, bad unions and a bad attitude as UK lived on past glories.

Thatcher cleared the dead wood and gave an opportunity to rebuild but that opportunity has been totally squandered by succeeding governments.

Dyson wanted to build his Engineering school at a site outside bath but after first encouraging him, the local council caused so many barriers to be put in his way that he was talking of going to the USA. And we are talking of an investment of hundreds of millions.

[/quote]

Sad but believable. 1966 a past glory and trotted out every bloody year. Bad management, ours convinced every one things were really bad, orders down....... Then equipped themselves with new cars. Is it any wonder that the unions fought back? Problem being it was self destruction as the rest of the world moved forward at an alarming rate.

Good old Council, fecking jobsworths.

[Clarkkent]

Was not one of the problems with apprenticeships that they they were anchored in the view that they would provide the apprentice with a single set of skills that could be used for the rest of his life? What was not foreseen was that digital technology would make this approach redundant. Numerically-controlled machine tools which could interface with computer-based design technologies made many concepts of  "skill" totally outmoded.

When this became clear, a combination of incompetent management, intransigent unions, out-of-touch government and an intellectual elite who believed that "adding value" did not mean making anything, determined that Britain should be a service economy.

I also recall that sometime in the 1990s, Jacques Nasser - then president of the Ford Motor Company - believed that his organisation would eventually become a design and marketing company, with manufacturing delegated to cheap third-world countries.

[Théière]

Sadly Clarkkent your first paragraph was not the case for me.

We trained in a lot of disciplines, electrical, electronic, sheet metal, machining and bench work, specialising after a couple of years. then at least 3 more years at what ever before getting signed off.

Because even in those days there were experts who could not see further than their stuck up noses the CNC concepts largely drifted passed un-noticed, until of course it was too late for a lot of British jobs. Firms located abroad into bright new factories with the latest equipment. I won the chance to attend an engineering technology expo, by won it shows how rare attendance at these expo's were in those days. The result, I had to be interviewed by our M.D. and several engineering directors on what I had gained from my "day off".

Bolshy little sod that I was, I said, All of you should have been there, You haven't got a clue what is happening in the big wide world, you have your heads up your *ss*s and if you don't get this technology you are finished in 5 years max. They lasted 6.

Ford, manufacturing delegated to cheap third world countries...............Do you mean Dagenham [:D]

 

[tegwini]

And, engineering - or qualifying as an engineer has little status in the UK. And I mean here someone with an engineering degree.

Both my brothers did engineering degrees (one civil, one electrical/electronic)  Since pay for graduate engineers is so poor, less than for example most in the finance industry, they ended up in the US with much better jobs.   One was really very clever and was involved in the 'digitising' of mobile phones.

Sad really.

[Clarkkent]

[quote user="tegwini"]

And, engineering - or qualifying as an engineer has little status in the UK. And I mean here someone with an engineering degree.

Both my brothers did engineering degrees (one civil, one electrical/electronic)  Since pay for graduate engineers is so poor, less than for example most in the finance industry, they ended up in the US with much better jobs.   One was really very clever and was involved in the 'digitising' of mobile phones.

Sad really.

[/quote]

An engineer is someone who repairs your washing machine, a civil engineer is someone who does it politely.

[krusty]

I used to live in Manchester , it has a tram system and the trams have been made in Italy ....Britain used to be one of the leaders in train manufacture . Surely at the time Britain was still capable of constructing its own trams.

[Quillan]

[quote user="woolybanana"]

The damage was done before Thatcher I am afraid. In the late sixties it began and beyond. Too much emphasis on the social State and not enough money left to invest in technology. Bad management, bad unions and a bad attitude as UK lived on past glories.

[/quote]

Spot on WB. In fact the Labour government started with MOD (as it was then) apprenticeships as part of the defence cuts which then spread to the GPO as it was then. When all the troubles started in the late 60's and early 70's most private companies followed suit as basically they couldn't afford to pay and train the apprenticeships and pay the extra money to the Apprentice Masters. It all sort of went down hill from there. I actual fact MT did try to start getting you people trained up in a scheme who's name escapes me. The socialists came out with the normal 'cheap labour' and 'attempt to massage the un-employment figures' arguments as I remember it.

[Théière]

Quillan, I started my apprenticeship in '75, MOD was still offering them. The pay, 8x what a paperboy received was allowable against the companies tax bill, there were incentives that were scrapped by Mrs T and the silly training scheme which was so bad I can't remember it either, failed. In the typical spin it was the lack of apprentices not the government who were to blame.

Girls I was at school with went to offices that were air con'd so the baking hot summer of '76 did not worry them and had more money per week than us. In reality the apprentices paid their companies for the training. Was it cheap labour, quite possibly.

Moving on, has anything been learnt? Only how to spin more effectively and how to make a labour government behave worse than a conservative one.

[velcorin]

Sorry, I've got no time for James Dyson. I worked for the company for a couple of years, he certainly likes anything for publicity, and more spin than Peter Mandelson or Christine Lagarde. Lets get some facts shall we? [:)]See link to the latest PwC report on manufacturing, it makes the point that the value/volume of manufacturing has not gone down, but that productivity has increased dramatically, and the other sectors of the economy have increased. It also makes the point that exactly the same has happened in all developed countries. Sometimes rather than letting lazy Brit journo spoon feed us (dis)information, it pays to dig out raw data and analysis, or cross reference with other news sources like Bloomberg, Reuter, Der Spiegel, Dutchnews, all in English. At least you can then bypass the de rigeur Brit self flagellation[:D]. Anyway

http://www.pwc.co.uk/eng/publications/the_future_of_manufacturing.html

Working for a German company (I'm based in France), that sells to EUR 10billion to manufacturing companies globally, I do get irritated when people harp on about the great days on British manufacturing. Wake up, in 2007 the most cars EVER, were produced in the UK, and 50% of all of Europe's car engines, foreign owned, but Ford and Vauxhall always were. Globally, the 2 and 3 biggest oil companies are British, the biggest telecoms company, the 3rd biggest chemical manufacturer, the biggest pharmaceutical company, the 2nd biggest defence contractor......

If the current recession was turned into a league table, Germany and France are currently in the relegation zone, with the UK pushing for a European place (and I've lost the Der Spiegel link---I'll post it when I find it!).

Rant over.

NB my French wife thinks Eastenders is the best television ever, anywhere, anytime. And her degree is in French Literature[:D]

[Gastines]

While you are discussing Apprenticeships mostly of the manufacturing and engineering type I'd like to add one related to the NHS. When my wife was in nurse training ,a 3 year course mostly starting at the mucky end,there were 14 in her set. After 5 years my wife went into the Private sector because of the short staffing,shortage of equipment,black mark system if you lodge a complaint etc etc. There were then 2 of the original set still in the NHS,one in management and one in accounts,less stress,better pay . At no time did anyone in the Personnel dept ask any of the leavers their reason for quitting. Then you read ,as is occuring again, a £800.000. recruiting drive is being staged,not in UK of course as the teams seem to prefer freebies in the Phillipines and other sunny regions.

When visiting my brother in I.T unit a couple of years ago,the nurse dealing with him  couldn't even pronounce his name and neither my wife or I could understand much of the conversation, while glad of any care he did receive he said on several occasions he just wanted to get out or give up.

 The training part I think refers to low-cost dogsbodies and don't speak out .

Regards.

[NormanH]

NB my French wife thinks Eastenders is the best television ever, anywhere, anytime. And her degree is in French Literature

Obviously that means that she knows nothing about the UK

which  explains her  bizarre views[:D]

[woolybanana]

A quick read of that report suggests that James Dyson is right (it was a quick read!)