How do you fix the UK

[baypond]

 

 

"I was thinking of Kenny Everets take on Barbra Streisand"

 

 

You just reminded me what a brilliantly stupidly funny sketch that was.......

[Théière]

[quote user="baypond"]

"I was thinking of Kenny Everets take on Barbra Streisand"

You just reminded me what a brilliantly stupidly funny sketch that was.......

[/quote]

Nope can't remember that, Cleo Rocos, now I remember her [:$]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-ymOuriTtM&feature=related

[:D]

[Dog]

All this tax this tax that is crazy.

UK needs less taxes which means less civil servants who just about always cost more than the tax they manage to get in. Most businesses try to get non productive office staff to under 2% of the workforce.

Just have VAT and income tax - income tax paid by individuals should be public knowledge as in USA - it gives the public the right to see if people are paying their bit.

Putting the tax up on booze will just cause more crime.

Let anyone into UK - get rid of border controls they are expensive and bad value.

Cut BBC foreign service and MI5 by 90%.

Get out of Afganistan and Iraq. Cut defence spending by 80%.

Bring in Sharia law.

Dropping VAT threshold is a laughable idea a business of a reasonable size will want to reclaim VAT.

In government - leaders of departments and people that run Quangos that have to use consultants and experts should be relieved of their jobs as they shouldn't be in charge if they do not know what they are doing.

Trades people in UK should have to be qualified and should not be able to call themselves a mechanic, engineer or printer unless they are qualified.

Masons should be forced to admit membership.

Cut the education budget there are too many graduates and kids cannot read and write anyway. It will make them realise the value of education. Head teachers salaries should be capped at max £25,000.

Give Parish Councils more power as to where rates money is spent.

All government pensions should be cut heavily and those who take a job after early retirement should be taxed heavily.

Sell the Queen to the highest bidder.

[Théière]

And let me have a lethal injection if I have to live in Dog's world [:D]

[powerdesal]

A few ideas:-

1.  Immigration.  Non EU workers, work permit required, applied for and paid for by sponsoring employer, valid 3 years up to age 60, then renewable annually. Permit gives residence visa, applicable to family if salary is sufficient to support them. PHI a requirement. Lose job, lose work permit, lose residence permit, leave UK. Thats what happens here in UAE, there is no reason why the same rules cannot be applied in UK.

EU workers, PHI a requirement, plus certification of 'no charge on state', same system as France has.

2. Tax. As per Quillan, to stimulate business start up.

3. Asylum seekers. Application from home country only. No visa granted means no entry - no exceptions. Applications to be rigorously scrutinised before visa granted. Only to be granted if definite threat to persons life / liberty is seriously considered.

4. EU / Sovereignty.  British law and (possibly unwritten) constitution takes precedence. Full EU people (passport holders) free movement plus free trade (as before Schengan)

5. EU to restore internal border controls, show your EU passport and be waved through. This reduces unemployment by recruiting border guards throughout EU. Schengan style visit visa issued by any EU country gives access across all EU internal borders (after being shown at each border crossing)

6. Social benefits. Family allowance to be limited to first two children only. Names of both parents must be stated on application, with signature of both and addresses of both if different. Renewable application annually, in full.

7. Unemployment benefit. 100% of national average wage for first 6 months, reducing by 10% per 6 months thereafter. minimum 6 months between reclaims to avoid job 'flipping'

8. MPs to have Govt accommodation in designated apartment block in London for use during week.Govt paid and furnished to Military junior officer standard. No second home allowances. No expenses for anything (no food allowance etc) other than a travel warrant (officer grade) one return per week, convertible to motor mileage allowance if preferred.

9.  Anti social crimes (yobs etc), three strikes and then a term (6 months min) in a work camp, bare facilities, no electronic toys etc. Physical work 0600 - 1800 daily, day off Sunday. No visits, no 'pass outs', no time off for good behaviour, time 'on' for bad behaviour. Camp staff to be recruited from ex Military. Human rights laws suspended for duration of 'camp training'. Strikes one and two, stocks for 48 hrs for first, birching for second.

10. Knife crime (actually using a knife in a crime) 1 year in the camp for threatening, 4 years for actual bodily harm.

11. Gun crime. 2 years for threatening, 5 years for using, see below if causing death.

12. Killing with gun or knife. Death penalty. (humanely of course, lethal injection)

I think that will do for starters.

[plod]

I'm surprised nobody wants to bring back the birch. Those of you who favour the death penalty what do you say to family of people like Timothy Evans, and the most recent case, whose name escapes me, released after being shown to be innocent. A Pythonesque "Sorry!"?

[Pickles]

[quote user="plod"]I'm surprised nobody wants to bring back the birch. [/quote]

Errrr ....  do you want to borrow my glasses?

[quote user="powerdesal"]9.  Anti social crimes (yobs etc), three

strikes and then a term (6 months min) in a work camp, bare facilities,

no electronic toys etc. Physical work 0600 - 1800 daily, day off

Sunday. No visits, no 'pass outs', no time off for good behaviour, time

'on' for bad behaviour. Camp staff to be recruited from ex Military.

Human rights laws suspended for duration of 'camp training'. Strikes

one and two, stocks for 48 hrs for first, birching for second[/quote]

Concentrate man, concentrate!

Regards

Pickles

[powerdesal]

[quote user="plod"]I'm surprised nobody wants to bring back the birch. Those of you who favour the death penalty what do you say to family of people like Timothy Evans, and the most recent case, whose name escapes me, released after being shown to be innocent. A Pythonesque "Sorry!"?[/quote]

Plod,

It is a very unfortunate fact of life that, to deter those who enjoy inflicting pain, pain must be inflicted on them in return.

If the feral youth of present society have nothing to fear then there is no deterrent, Maybe an 'over the top ' reaction is necessary to make the violent, uncaring, fearless members of modern society realise that their behaviour will not be tolerated. If this OTT reaction involves the death penalty then so be it.

Even with modern DNA forensics there will, no doubt, be mistakes, but........If the concept of a minor number of innocent deaths disturbs you, how do you feel about the less than minor innocent deaths caused by the present breakdown of society.

Whilst I agree there may be a case for locking up convicted murderers rather than executing them, in the cast iron certain case of some murders, there is NO excuse for failure to execute. A line has to drawn and the dregs of society have to have the fear of pain or death put squarely in their minds. To do less is to abrogate societal responsibility.

In short:- Inflict pain on innocent people and you WILL feel serious pain in return. Kill innocent people and you will DIE. You have to ask yourself.....Is it worth it????????

[just john]

I  blame Emily Pankhurst, if she'd let sleeping dogs lie, men would still be down the mines and women could just go shopping for to make rabbit pie!

What next, conscription? stoning for adultery?

In criminal law, Blackstone's formulation (also known as Blackstone's ratio or the Blackstone ratio) is the principle: "better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer", expressed by the English jurist William Blackstone in his Commentaries on the Laws of England, published in the 1760s.

The principle is much older than Blackstone's formulation, being closely tied to the presumption of innocence in criminal trials. An early example of the principle appears in the Bible (Genesis 18:23-32),[1][2]

[Owens88]

Cooments re a report from quillan. Mine have a > in front if I have done it right.

Quillan

Posts 4,705 Re: How do you fix the UK

Well here is a few of my more controversial ideas.

Compulsory introduction of ID cards, this allows the government to know exactly who's in the country and will weed out people who are not entitled to be there (among other things).

>I agree. I just don't like the implementation methods/costs.

Stop the NHS from being sued. Injury and death of patients to become criminal offences and not civil. Should free up nearly 1/3 of the NHS budget held back for litigation. How many people do you hear on the TV saying it's not the money its the justice they want.

>I agree. The defence costs are ridiculous and an open system of 'compensation' is better than 'retribution'

Immediate but temporary halt to immigration. Only people allowed to emigrate to the UK should be those who can perform jobs for which there is nobody else to do rather like Canada, Australia and the USA. If you have a verified job to go to then you gain entry.

>Agreed, except for true asylum seekers. (Byword. Apparently the accord for asylum seekers is to deal with them at first contact. How come they arrive at Britain having passed through several countries including France? Perhaps some other countries should live up to their pledges)

Get rid of the ASBO system, parents become legally liable for any costs caused by damage by those previously covered by ASBO's. Children who continue to commit offences should be taken in to care. The ID card or lack of it as it would only be available to 18's and over can be used to dramatically reduce under age people buying booze. Much harsher penalties for those who sell or buy booze to under age people. Immediate and permanent removal of off sales licence plus lets say £30k fine for shops and a £10k fine or/and 2 years prison sentence (depending on number of offences) for those caught buying booze for under age people.

>Agreed

Bring back PE and games at schools, if the schools don't have playing fields anymore then local stadiums or recreational parks to be used.

>Actually there is more of PE than the news gives credit for. It is still patchy. I was on the Bristol, Downs last weekend and it was full of playing pitches. In my own semi-rural area there is not enough pitches for the demand. (Charnwood Leicestershire)

Bring back the death penalty and life sentences, mandatory for 1st degree murder. Modern DNA testing can now determine in many cases if somebody has committed murder and the death penalty can be used. For cases where it is not 100% possible to prove the person committed the offence and/or the jury does not have a 100% majority then a life sentence should be used, life meaning life.

>Life meaning life (unless new evidence) Yes.

Withdrawal of UK armed forces from current global conflicts which are nothing to do with us.

>How does one emphasise ABSOLUTELY AGREE ?

Make it illegal for hospitals to use agency nurses. That means there will be no jobs for nurses trained by the state who leave and come back as agency nurses. They either work direct for the NHS or not at all. Nurses to be nurses and not mini doctors like under the '2000' scheme. Contract cleaning labour only to be used in hospitals for common areas, nurses to have their original duties returned to them like keeping wards clean etc as well as the nursing the patients. Bring back matrons.

>Contract is more complex than you make out, can have benefits to all. Standards yes.

Making nurses nurse, Yes.

Bring back one point of responsibility AND authority (e.g. matrons) yes.

Massive rise in VAT registration limit. No employers national insurance for the first three years of a companies life from start up. Not tax payments either. No bank charges for start up companies for the first three years either. This will give incentives for people to start companies and hopefully they will grow and create jobs thus reducing unemployment.

>Laudable but.... Improving employmemt in UK is largely about attracting big companies. Incentives to smaller employers are also valid for social reasons but the higher incentives should go to those who can grow to above 20 employees.

Pass legislation to make it illegal for the government to lend money to banks etc.

>How about being radical. Each and Every exec Director of a bank is liable for the first £100 million of losses? That way they might pay attention to the job rather than their ego/property/mistresses.

Higher rates of unemployment payments for those who loose their jobs but on a sliding scale. Starting with full salary and reducing by 20% per year. Free training to those that are unemployed linked to industries requirements for type of jobs needing to be filled.

>All statistics suggest that 'per year' is too slow. If you ain't cracked it in 3 months widen your field, 6 months widen again. I think that the mortgage subsidy should actually stay longer (2-4years?) as an incentive for people to downtrade in salary in response to the market.

Abolish University fees, but set the entry qualification higher. Double the fees for international students. Charge companies a one off modest fee for employing a graduate as they are gaining an advantage by employing them (they didn't have to pay for all their training) and its to the advantage generally that industry gets to employ them (with the exception of start up companies).

>That is so evidently common sense. I applaud you !

Sorry guys. The input box I have to deal with is about 60 characters width and has no formatting options.

[Quillan]

Whilst I agree with capital punishment I disagree with corporal punishment. Its on inflicts short term physical pain where as incarceration for a substantial time is far more effective.

What I do think is that people who are proven to have committed a crime do loose their human rights, in fact they loose all human rights the minute they perpetrate the crime.

I am minded of the appeal in the high court where a paedophile took the Home Office to court on the grounds he did not get the same privileges as other prisoners and could not progress through the category system, did not have access to training programs and neither could he apply for parole and that this was an infringement of his human rights. The reason for him not receiving any of these 'benefits' is that to gain access to them you first must admit your guilt and he was, of course, innocent along with I suspect every other criminal in prison. His appeal was successful and has set a legal residence for convicted paedophiles. Strangely to some I wouldn't like to paedophiles killed by the state but I would like to see them locked up for life with no appeal.

We don't need to adopt another system of law we just need to use the one we have more effectively.

Conscription, you must be joking. It wasn't wanted by the armed forces, we are at peace and we don't need a large military force anymore. There is nothing what so ever to be gained by bringing it in. I also don't think we need such a large nuclear weapons arsenal anymore, who's going to drop a bomb on the UK and anyway if they did there wouldn't be anyone around to press the button to retaliate. We just need enough as a deterrent.

[woolybanana]

What pray is wrong with birching for thugs?

[Dog]

[quote user="Quillan"]

.....we are at peace and we don't need a large military force anymore. There is nothing what so ever to be gained by bringing it in. I also don't think we need such a large nuclear weapons arsenal anymore, who's going to drop a bomb on the UK and anyway if they did there wouldn't be anyone around to press the button to retaliate. We just need enough as a deterrent.

[/quote]

LOL another one that doesn't know there is a war going on..

How can you give any credence point of view that doesn't know what is happening in the world today?

PS Doesn't anyone here understand how VAT works?

PPS Birching - isn't that Sharia law?

[woolybanana]

IOM until it was banned by the do gooders

[Russethouse]

PS Doesn't anyone here understand how VAT works?

How do you mean ?

[Dog]

[quote user="Russethouse"]

PS Doesn't anyone here understand how VAT works?

How do you mean ?

[/quote]

 

It has been pontificated that raising the VAT threshold - the amount of turnover when VAT becomes chargeable and recoupable by a sole trader or company will somehow help encourage business.

All that means is that a trader or company will not recoup VAT until they have reached a certain turnover. THEY STILL PAY VAT ON ITEMS PURCHASED!!!

 If or as soon as they turnover a reasonable amount they will want to be VAT registered to recoup the VAT they pay on materials they purchase - it helps them become far more competitive.

It doesn't bother them an iota if they charge VAT as long as they trade with other VAT registered companies which most are. 

The point at which VAT must be charged by a company and recouped can be put off or back dated so it is waffle to think raising the threshold helps anyone.

So expect politicians to offer this idiot deal.

[buelligan]

Some of the posters on this thread are definitely making me feel very Twainish about my dog....[:D]

[plod]

In what way is corporal punishment effective? It was always the same kids who got caned at school and I knew a family whose parents used a towel as the preferred instrument of pain - I mean discipline. Of course, they were changed from thugs into charming members of society.

As for capital punishment - a bit of collateral damage is acceptable. "We're going to hang you, even though you might be innocent, just think of the good of society will you?"

[powerdesal]

[quote user="plod"]In what way is corporal punishment effective? It was always the same kids who got caned at school and I knew a family whose parents used a towel as the preferred instrument of pain - I mean discipline. Of course, they were changed from thugs into charming members of society. As for capital punishment - a bit of collateral damage is acceptable. "We're going to hang you, even though you might be innocent, just think of the good of society will you?"[/quote]

 

Whilst I realise that you are very much against corporal and capital punishment to fix the 'broken' society of (some of) UK at the moment, what is your suggested alternative?

ASBOs dont seem to work, incarceration is not being used or doesn't work, appeals to 'better nature / better parenting' dont appear to work, threats dont work because the threat is not followed up.

Do we throw up our hands and do nothing? I don't believe that doing nothing is an option.

In my opinion, corporal punishment (short sharp shock - call it what you will) will work in a majority of cases, It will not always work, but realistically a percentage success rate is better than no success.

Similarly, capital punishment must be a weapon in the armoury of society. I know it is trite to say you cant make omelettes without breaking eggs but the basic philosophy is true. Obviously where doubt exists then it must be taken into account. I would however suggest that there are cases where there is NO reasonable doubt.

The Blackstone statement ""better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer", was all very well in 1760 or in Biblical times, but I believe that modern forensics (DNA et al) have reduced the risk of  innocent suffering to an acceptable level. Acceptable that is, in terms of the present circumstances.

If no action is taken Society runs the very real risk of violent vigilantism as people take the law into their own hands to protect themselves and their part of society. It is better, in my opinion, to have the state apply such degrees of violence as is required.

Punishment is a deterrent, but only if the deterrent is demonstrated, no deterrent means a free for all and anarchy results. The unpunished levels of violence that seem to be prevalent at the moment really do mean that examples must be made and must be seen to be made, to encourage better, acceptable behaviour.

In days past, when National Service was the norm, the violent tendencies of young men were somewhat reduced by the strictures of Military discipline (perhaps harsh at times I will admit), such an option is not available now and cannot be restored. Hence my earlier comment about work camps. The present violent members of society who seem to glorify violence require strong, possibly harsh, measures to make them realise that their lives will be better if they conform to the rules of society as a whole.

 

[plod]

I have to admit that I do not know what the answer is but I am convinced that thrashing people is not the way to improve society. You still seem to suggest that it doesn't really matter if the odd innocent person here or there is hanged. The risk of your way is that we end up with a very repressive system, so much so that somebody, jokingly or not, said we would end up with a form of Sharia law.

[Clarkkent]

I don't think I have read such a load of right-wing tripe for ages.

What has been missed out?

How about having the death penalty for anti-social behaviour, criticising the state and parking on a double yellow line? Providing that a mechanical system of execution were used, the internal organs of the criminal could then be used for transplant surgery and the surplus sold on to buyers in the USA.

This would be of benefit to the NHS and help with the balance of trade.

[Mr Coeur de Lion]

Could send all the scallies out to Afghanistan. That would teach them a lesson.

[woolybanana]

A true capitalist speaks.

[Dog]

[quote user="Clarkkent"]I don't think I have read such a load of right-wing tripe for ages. What has been missed out? How about having the death penalty for anti-social behaviour, criticising the state and parking on a double yellow line? Providing that a mechanical system of execution were used, the internal organs of the criminal could then be used for transplant surgery and the surplus sold on to buyers in the USA. This would be of benefit to the NHS and help with the balance of trade.[/quote]

It's more like communist tripe - the Chinese sell body parts from criminals that have been put to death.

On R4 today they said that 90% of people in UK jails were illiterate - I have a jolly wheeze to save time and money - all school leavers are tested and those that fail a literacy test go straight to jail - do not pass go do not collect £200.

[Quillan]

[quote user="Richard"]Could send all the scallies out to Afghanistan. That would teach them a lesson.
[/quote]

Without the right support, body armour, boots and guns that don't work when you get sand in them. Oh I forgot we do that anyway except they aren't scallies put then it is another illegal invasion of another country. Thats two we have been involved recently, the latter, so some General says, will require us to occupy for around another 20 years.