Police siege

[Joe]

I have been watching UK news about the siege.I cannot believe the police are to be investigated.Is it me?

[Clarkkent]

Isn't it the case that there is always an investigation following a case like this? After all, there was a potential for ordinary members of the public to become involved - the way the incident was dealt with may hold lessons or pointers to some future similar event. And in any case, was the incident - which lasted a week - handled in the most effective way?

What is it that concerns you about a potential enquiry?

[Sunday Driver]

The incident resulted in the death of a person so the circumstances must be investigated.  As the police were involved in the incident and were present at the time of death, their actions will be subject to scrutiny by the investigation.

 

[Joe]

Its not the inquiry,but the questions that were being asked about the use of tasers.What were the police supposed to do?It seems to me they are damned if they do and damned if they don't.

[Dog]

I am astonished at such a waste of public money spent on chasing one rogue, the police ignored the prison service advice that he was violent and a danger to his family.

The Chief of Police looked like a deranged puppet and behaved like one.

[Sunday Driver]

Think about it...

The target is holding a sawn off shotgun to his head and threatening to pull the trigger. A police officer discharges a Taser dart which delivers 50,000 volts to the target's body.  The resultant electrocution spasm causes him to inadvertantly pull the trigger.  Question - did the officer (and his authorising superior) foresee this possibilty?  If yes, then their actions could be considered as contributing to the target's death.   If not, then were they negligent for not doing so?

 

[ebaynut]

[quote user="Joe"]Its not the inquiry,but the questions that were being asked about the use of tasers.What were the police supposed to do?It seems to me they are damned if they do and damned if they don't.[/quote]

There is always an investigation when the police murder a MOTP.

But don't worry, after millions are spent paying some fat old ex top brass on the enquiry panel, the police will be found to have done an exemplary good job. [;-)]

[Quillan]

I have to agree with Dog on this. The police, as often is the case these days, ignored what they were being told about this individual before he even left prison which was their first and probably biggest mistake. I also thought the Chief of Police looked like a puppet, in fact I was reminded of the Spitting Image puppet of Thatcher (except she had longer hair than the puppet).

I couldn't believe that Gazza got involved, he must of been on the drink again, nor that somebody has already said that the use of the taser caused him to shoot himself. The police are continuously criticised for using guns which is why they are now issued with tasers. I wonder what these people think should have been done after talking to the guy for 6 hours with no result, through rotten eggs at him or something.

Anyway as SD has said there has to be this 'enquiry', its standard procedure. I just hope they look at every facet from the time before he was released from prison and those that are incompetent dismissed from the force.

I guess we will have all the 'human rights' mob out now talking about police brutality and him being stripped of his rights. In my book the moment a criminal steps outside his or her door with the intent to commit a crime he/she looses all rights and whatever happens to him or her after that is nobodies fault but their own.

As an afterthought this may be all to do with the cuts the government has to make. Wait till he points his gun at his own head, zap him, he blows his head off, saves the cost of a trial and keeping him in prison for the 5 years. Unfortunately they forgot the cost of the enquiry or will that be cheap by comparison [;-)] .

[Joe]

I agree with you.I should have explained my concerns a bit better I think.

[Russethouse]

The police, as often is the case these days, ignored what they were

being told about this individual before he even left prison which was

their first and probably biggest mistake

Apparently these kind notifications about prisoners being released are fairly common , if the police acted on every one we would be complaining about that too.

Also I have read this morning that the Tazza's didn't deploy properly, his clothing may have been too thick.

If they had of taken him alive I bet you dollars to donuts you'd all be complaining about the cost of keeping him alive in prison for years on end.....talk about 'can't win' [Www]

[just john]

There are societies where the instutions are armed and authorised to shoot wounded animals like dogs without explanation, they even have special chambers for doing this. Is'nt it fortunate that we live in a society where the actions of individuals or institutions are in the public domain and can be reflected upon and examined for morality or professionalism, with a media that can put forth arguments on both sides even playing devils advocate, so the greater public can be informed and take stance. Isn't there element of doubt here as to the treatment?, if he was mad and determined as the police would paint the story, wouldn't he have tried to shoot them knowing the chances of them shooting him was very real, instead of proclaiming his lack of father and feeling uncared for? Just why did the police not take his Uncles offer up to mediate with him and his claim that he would be able to disarm him? RAF camera planes, Heat seeking Helicopters and armoured cars from Ireland. Serious reasons for an investigation by some independent authority on the level of reality and professionalism employed here. Even if that turns into a similar farce.

[Alex H]

[quote user="just john "] RAF camera planes, Heat seeking Helicopters and armoured cars from Ireland. .[/quote]

RAF "camera planes" would probably be on training missions anyway.

Most, if not all, Police helicopters have Infra red scanners

Armoured cars from Ireland - source please and please don't tell me it's the Daily Mail

[Quillan]

This could have possibly been prevented if the police had listened to what they were told and I suspect this will be the highlight of any report.

The thing is who is the victim here, is it not the people who were shot, killed and maimed, its certainly not the person who pulled the trigger. Unfortunately this is the way our society goes these days, have compassion for the criminal, its not his or hers fault and they have rights! Well I am sorry I don't have compassion or anything else for people who commit crimes except the feeling they should be removed from society, in the case of murderers, hang them and the rest of the criminals can got to prison and stay there.

[Hoddy]

I'm surprised that there hasn't been more reporting of the so-called friends who helped him after he came out of jail. They must have known that they were helping him if not to his death and at least to a long time in prison. Perhaps the reporters will look at that eventually.

Hoddy

[just john]

[quote user="Tandem_Pilot"][quote user="just john "] RAF camera planes, Heat seeking Helicopters and armoured cars from Ireland. .[/quote]
RAF "camera planes" would probably be on training missions anyway. over Rothbury, really
Most, if not all, Police helicopters have Infra red scanners
Armoured cars from Ireland - source please and please don't tell me it's the Daily Mail
[/quote]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/10583023.stm 
pic 3 face of policeman firing tazer

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/10584042.stm
 Northern Ireland despatched 20 armoured cars on an evening ferry: vehicles designed to withstand an attack by armed paramilitaries.

 

[Alex H]

John

What difference does it make where the Tornado is flying? Photo missions over Rothbury cost just as much as over the Brecon Beacons.

Don't quite see the relevance of the tazer link - you were talking about heat seeking helicopters

20 Armoured cars. Well, that is quite an over reaction - IMHO :-)

I wonder if they're going to be returned to N.I. now the problem is resolved?

[just john]

[quote user="Quillan"] This could have possibly been prevented if the police had listened to what they were told and I suspect this will be the highlight of any report.
The thing is who is the victim here, is it not the people who were shot, killed and maimed, its certainly not the person who pulled the trigger. Unfortunately this is the way our society goes these days, have compassion for the criminal, its not his or hers fault and they have rights! Well I am sorry I don't have compassion or anything else for people who commit crimes except the feeling they should be removed from society, in the case of murderers, hang them and the rest of the criminals can got to prison and stay there.[/quote]

This could have possibly been prevented if the police had listened to what they were told and I suspect this will be the highlight of any report. Absolutely! and with half dozen intelligent men maybe.

Society is the victim here, Lack of professionalism in decisions at the top perhaps, avoidable outcomes of a few violent men, certainly limitless budgets spent by some chiefs after the event when it all goes wrong for Authorities to pick up.

 Unfortunately this is the way our society goes these days, have compassion for the criminal, its not his or hers fault and they have rights! Well maybe you should examine the causes and alternatives, perhaps try to understand the ethics of a society that has eschewed capital punishment.

[Hoddy]

The photograph of the policeman was taken and published long before the taser was fired. I took it that he was angry with the intrusive photographer. The photograph is clearly taken in daylight not the middle of the night.

I think the level of reporting here is poor.

Hoddy

[just john]

[quote user="Hoddy"]The photograph of the policeman was taken and published long before the taser was fired. I took it that he was angry with the intrusive photographer. The photograph is clearly taken in daylight not the middle of the night. I think the level of reporting here is poor. Hoddy[/quote]

I took it that he was angry with the intrusive photographer.  Possibly, but why? wouldn't you rather see a cool calm professional?

The photograph is clearly taken in daylight not the middle of the night. Clearly, but what is the mindset here?

I think the level of reporting here is poor. I'm glad to see full reporting enabling everybody to make their own mind up.

[Quillan]

On the BBC it says that Moats family have already been shown the post-mortem results and there are no marks on his body to say he was hit by a taser, so firing one (or two in this case we are told) and actually hitting something are to different matters. Perhaps Hoddy was right and they miss-fired.

Using 'heat seeking' helicopters is quite common when hunting for people. All police helicopters have this ability as do many army helicopters. I guess if they got the army in they simply didn't have enough to cover the ground quick enough. As to the rest of the equipment and some reports that the SAS were involved, I guess we will not know the whys and wherefore's till the report comes out.

John, if I may, your comment about media. The media is about selling news, making a profit for its owners and shareholders. The media is not unbiased in the UK although less so than some other countries. The media tell us what they think will sell their paper or whatever which is why its dangerous, in my opinion, to believe all what you read in papers, see on the TV or hear on the radio. Our society is primarily based on and reacts to what it is told by the media and that's how it forms an opinion these days. For some of us that see through what its doing and how it tries to manipulate us it does have one advantage in that there is often small things than many don't see straight away that makes you ask questions. Something caught my eye and I want to try and find out the answer, it seems lots of flowers have been placed outside Moats home, my question is why? If it were family they would enter and place them at the front door (no sign of police or tape there I noted) and I might understand. The fact they have been left outside the gate on the street seems to me that it's other and not the family. As I said I am trying to understand why. Funny enough there are no photo's of flowers outside the victims houses.

[just john]

[quote user="Quillan"] post-mortem results and there are no marks on his body to say he was hit by a taser,
My subsequent posting about the tazer photo was something discovered later but illustrated a possible point about mindset 
As to the rest of the equipment and some reports that the SAS were involved, I guess we will not know the whys and wherefore's till the report comes out.
Perfectly illustrates my point about intelligence used early could avoid situations and macho overspend. 
The media is about selling news, making a profit for its owners and shareholders. The media is not unbiased in the UK
Some maybe, if more than one are consulted a consensus can be drawn however.
that makes you ask questions. Indeed, and we should do 
flowers have been placed outside Moats home, my question is why? seems to me that it's other and not the family.
Certainly not his mother, Comments he made initially about losing everything seem to me to have struck a chord with some, others like his Uncle, maybe knew the other side of his personality, who knows yet,
Not my real interest in this, which is primarily that Society is improved by asking questions as the OP.
Certainly Policing could employ a little smarter prevention in this case, not just cameras, numbers, budgets etc,
Funny enough there are no photo's of flowers outside the victims houses.
MMmm, what does this say about those involved . . . [/quote]

[Hoddy]

I'm all for full reporting it's just that I think that some of it here has been irresponsible. As Gay has already pointed out it is quite common for prisoner to claim that they will go after policemen on their release, but it's a threat that is rarely carried out.

I also think much has been said about the slow response of the police in complete ignorance of the terrain. The area around Rothbury is one of the most remote parts of Britain. I reckon that I could disappear there for a week if I was properly prepared.

There will have been few firearms trained officers who knew the area at all and I'm not sure that they are trained to work in difficult countryside like this. No wonder it took a while to get them there. The local 'bobby' who really knew his patch is long gone. I imagine that the police were afraid, as I was, that he would take hostages in one of the very remote farmhouses in the area.

As for the photograph I think that you were meant to think that the taser was being fired in anger. The photographer seems as though he was on top of the wall that the police were sheltering behind. The policeman could have been telling him to get back to safety. We just don't know.

It's right that there should be an enquiry, but I am rather tired of the police being blamed before the facts are known.

I ask again about the role of his so-called friends.

[Russethouse]

Something caught my eye and I want to try and find out the answer, it

seems lots of flowers have been placed outside Moats home, my question

is why?

 I daresay there are people  that knew and liked him, man and boy : he wasn't always the person who came out of prison. Some of them may have witnessed the breakdown of his relationships, or just think he had a rough deal (his mother 'helpfully' disowned him this week).

Of course lots of people have rough deals and don't do what he has, but I don't think it needs a lot of imagination to see why people would feel some sorrow, and perhaps feeling of 'there but for the grace of God' and show that by leaving flowers.

The BBC report that both his brother and Uncle offered to go to try and 'talk him down' but the offer was refused - I'd like to know why ?

[Quillan]

You see this it it, people are already talking about him as a victim, he's not the blinking victim, the people he shot are the victims. [:'(]

[just john]

[quote user="Quillan"]You see this it it, people are already talking about him as a victim, he's not the blinking victim, the people he shot are the victims. [:'(][/quote]

Q, The others are a given, but this to spell it out as I see it . . .

1. Society is the first victim, the fact that the Prison / Police service aren't able to deal with this scenario; with a given history and warning from the protagonist, and then after the deed to escalate the police activity in the manner done, ignoring alternatives from family etc; finally the outcome. ~All of this is what concerns people is it not?

2 His partner, possibly not completely innocent in this.

3 Her companion, possibly not an innocent in this.

4 The policeman (how could this happen to an alert policeman?)

The above are all a given; back to the discussion . . .

5 The Protagonist; Its plausable that trying to understand the background behind how and why will perhaps be the driver in how these crims are understood, tackled and blocked (forgive the humour[Www]) in future. This effort should not be interpreted solely as victim sympathy.