It seems that nowhere is safe..

[Dog]

[quote user="idun"]

When I took a deep breath and put the news on late last night, I heard that some extremist muslim group was saying that they did it.

 

Now I get up and at least the island massacre was perpetrated by an extremist christian and the rolling news is so confusing that I cannot make out if he or he with a group had carried out the bombings in Oslo too.

 

Relgion. What is it about it that breeds such evil and has done throughout time. And not just individuals or small groups, but those in power have used it's devisiveness for pure evil too. The other day a pastor got rid of the bad parts of the bible the other day, maybe all these 'bibles' of all faiths should be gone through and all the bad and hate and mysogyny bits got rid of once and for all. I may have a litte more time for 'religion' then. 

[/quote]

Surely that's the point he had effectively denounced religion once he became a freemason, the freemasons will say that they take anyone that believes in a supreme being.

Quite how they know this is up to them, but you cannot be a devote Christian and a freemason.

If freemasonry is about raising standards and putting men on a better path here is yet another example of its darker side.

In just a few weeks freemasonry has been shown in a very bad light yet again.

[Rabbie]

[quote user="Dog"][quote user="idun"]

When I took a deep breath and put the news on late last night, I heard that some extremist muslim group was saying that they did it.

 

Now I get up and at least the island massacre was perpetrated by an extremist christian and the rolling news is so confusing that I cannot make out if he or he with a group had carried out the bombings in Oslo too.

 

Relgion. What is it about it that breeds such evil and has done throughout time. And not just individuals or small groups, but those in power have used it's devisiveness for pure evil too. The other day a pastor got rid of the bad parts of the bible the other day, maybe all these 'bibles' of all faiths should be gone through and all the bad and hate and mysogyny bits got rid of once and for all. I may have a litte more time for 'religion' then. 

[/quote] Surely that's the point he had effectively denounced religion once he became a freemason, the freemasons will say that they take anyone that believes in a supreme being. Quite how they know this is up to them, but you cannot be a devote Christian and a freemason. If freemasonry is about raising standards and putting men on a better path here is yet another example of its darker side. In just a few weeks freemasonry has been shown in a very bad light yet again.[/quote]As christians believe in a supreme being I can see no contradiction between freemasonry and Christianity

[Dog]

[quote user="Rabbie"][quote user="Dog"][quote user="idun"]

When I took a deep breath and put the news on late last night, I heard that some extremist muslim group was saying that they did it.

 

Now I get up and at least the island massacre was perpetrated by an extremist christian and the rolling news is so confusing that I cannot make out if he or he with a group had carried out the bombings in Oslo too.

 

Relgion. What is it about it that breeds such evil and has done throughout time. And not just individuals or small groups, but those in power have used it's devisiveness for pure evil too. The other day a pastor got rid of the bad parts of the bible the other day, maybe all these 'bibles' of all faiths should be gone through and all the bad and hate and mysogyny bits got rid of once and for all. I may have a litte more time for 'religion' then. 

[/quote] Surely that's the point he had effectively denounced religion once he became a freemason, the freemasons will say that they take anyone that believes in a supreme being. Quite how they know this is up to them, but you cannot be a devote Christian and a freemason. If freemasonry is about raising standards and putting men on a better path here is yet another example of its darker side. In just a few weeks freemasonry has been shown in a very bad light yet again.[/quote]As christians believe in a supreme being I can see no contradiction between freemasonry and Christianity[/quote]

Rabbie be precise are you a christian or a freemason?

The core problem theologically is syncretism. Freemasonry abstractly worships a 'supreme being' and papers over important differences among faiths.

Like other universalist traditions, this undermines notions of the Trinity and the importance of Christ.

[Rabbie]

[quote user="Dog"][quote user="Rabbie"][quote user="Dog"][quote user="idun"]

When I took a deep breath and put the news on late last night, I heard that some extremist muslim group was saying that they did it.

 

Now I get up and at least the island massacre was perpetrated by an extremist christian and the rolling news is so confusing that I cannot make out if he or he with a group had carried out the bombings in Oslo too.

 

Relgion. What is it about it that breeds such evil and has done throughout time. And not just individuals or small groups, but those in power have used it's devisiveness for pure evil too. The other day a pastor got rid of the bad parts of the bible the other day, maybe all these 'bibles' of all faiths should be gone through and all the bad and hate and mysogyny bits got rid of once and for all. I may have a litte more time for 'religion' then. 

[/quote] Surely that's the point he had effectively denounced religion once he became a freemason, the freemasons will say that they take anyone that believes in a supreme being. Quite how they know this is up to them, but you cannot be a devote Christian and a freemason. If freemasonry is about raising standards and putting men on a better path here is yet another example of its darker side. In just a few weeks freemasonry has been shown in a very bad light yet again.[/quote]As christians believe in a supreme being I can see no contradiction between freemasonry and Christianity[/quote] Rabbie be precise are you a christian or a freemason? The core problem theologically is syncretism. Freemasonry abstractly worships a 'supreme being' and papers over important differences among faiths. Like other universalist traditions, this undermines notions of the Trinity and the importance of Christ.[/quote]As one brought up in the christian tradition but not a freemason I mst bow to your theological knowledge. I was always under the impression that a belief in a supreme creator was a fundamental part of christian faith. As far as I understand it Freemasonry is open to those who believe in any 'supreme being' - the requirement being this belief but not necessarily the same 'supreme being' as other free masons.

But still we live and learn but perhaps we are straying from the theme of this thread and should get back to topic.

[The Riff-Raff Element]

Linking these events to religon is plain ludicrous: ticking the "Christian" box on a Facebook profile does not make one a Christian. I am hazy about the finer points of theology, but I do know that those actually following Christian teachings regard indulging in mass murder as being a big no-no.

On the other hand, the links of the presumed perpitrator to right-wing extremism seem to be well established. We seem to have become a little too tolerent of these groups in recent years and they have gained a patina of respectibilty that they do not deserve. Mr Breivik was a great admirer, it would seem, of Geert Wilders, describing Wilders as leading the "only truly Conservative party in Europe."

Mainstream parties have been cosying up in coalition  to the far right all over the place -in The Netherlands, Denmark and Austria, for example, they hold quite considerable sway in governement at many levels. In France the FN continue to garner a steady level of support and the BNP have managed to get themselves into the European parliment. The reprehensible activities of "islamist" extremists in particular have been meat and bread to them.

Whatever image these parties may try to project, they are rooted in hate. And when hate is allowed to fester you sometimes get people like Anders Breivik.

[Boiling a frog]

If we become less tolerant of these right wing groups/people then the actions in Norway will have succeeded.

We must show these people that their intolerance cannot win.

[The Riff-Raff Element]

[quote user="Boiling a frog"]If we become less tolerant of these right wing groups/people then the actions in Norway will have succeeded.

We must show these people that their intolerance cannot win.[/quote]

Exactly. I'm not talking about banning them. The trick is to make sure that they are exposed for what they are.

[JSKS]

Extremism of whatever stripe (right wing, left wing, Christian, Muslim etc) varies only in the excuses used to commit amoral acts.

The preaching of hate seems to be the core connection between all the different groups - the need to find a perceived ''enemy'' on whom all inadequacies can be blamed. It seems that any group can be a victim -Jew, Christian, Muslim, black, white, different nationality, different football team. It seems that several million years of evolution has failed to suppress the need for some people to hide within the tribe and try to bolster their own self-worth by victimising those not in the group.

There is another forum concerned Totally with France which has a number of members who espouse racist and nationalist garbage and use any excuse to attack ''foreigners'' (defined not only by nationality but also by colour, religion etc). They walk among us!

[idun]

When I was at school and had to be taught religion, it was purely christianity, C of E and nothing else mentioned apart from judaism because of the old testament and we most certainly did the old testament as part of christian teaching.

RRE said:   actually following Christian teachings regard indulging in mass murder as being a big no-no.

 

We were taught that god flooded the earth and all on it apart from a few chosen people. And in Soddam and Gommorah there were mass killings too. And those are just the bits I remember. So mass murder seems to be something that is certainly biblical,  on the agenda and I cannot remember ever being told by anyone that the old testament was to be ignored. I would swear that I was not not.

That the son, was supposed to have said that people should be less violent etc etc. is neither here nor there. Historically in his name atrocities have been carried out too.

 

Personally I have no doubt that this killer was religious.

 

I get sick of being told that if people were really christian they wouldn't do this that and the other. And then being told that weakness is built into humans. We are all weak. I don't listen to man made preachings, be it that they were decided, by men, I am sure not women, and written a very long time ago. I also understand that judeo-christian teachings influence the society in which I live.

 

I'm not having a go at any particular religion incidentally, I wish them all gone from the planet.

[Quillan]

But that's God that did that (flood etc) not humans because he (or possibly she, who knows) the supreme being and we are his 'children' made in his image (which of course is white)

Number 6 of the Ten Commandments (or Sayings if your Jewish) clearly says "You must not kill" (or "thou must not kill" - whatever!). The only ambiguity is what should you not kill. Some may argue that it refers to anything from an ant to anything living on the planet including humans. Our chosen interpretation is that you can actually kill anything except a fellow human being. Then there is an interpretation of what a human being is i.e. in olden days it was anything that was not white and didn't look like a white person so Negro's etc were fair game being classed as either animals or sub-human. This is the biggest problem with religion, it's vagueness which leaves it open to interpretation to whatever you want to make it fit. The only clever bit in some ways are the Ten Commandments which are at the core of most if not all of 'civilised' western law. Personally I think the Bible is, as the name of an old film implies, the greatest story ever told. Logically then this guy that did the bombing and shooting can't be a Christian as he has broken rule/law number 6.

[Gardener]

I think your thoughts on religion are well known to us all by now! ;)

This man is a murderer and one that would appear to have been motivated by extreme right wing ideologies rather than any religious ones. He could have been an athiest and still have carried out such a crime, because his beef seems to have been about immigration etc.

[Boiling a frog]

What personal knowledge do you have that leads you to believe that

This killer was religious ?

and more importantly

His religion lead him to commit these murders?

[Quillan]

IF he was a Freemason (as has been alleged) then he would be a Christian as he would have sworn his three oaths on a "Norwegian Bible Society" approved Bible. But then as it was also alleged he left Freemasonry some time prior to the killings then he may have turned away from Christianity. Who knows what was in the guys mind or what he really was other than 'disturbed'?

[Gardener]

But even then he could have been a christian in name only. My sister in law has started wearins a cross, because apparently you are not allowed to in the UK anymore! She is the most unchristian person I know.

This website if the link works gives some idea of his beliefs as they have were written by him.

http://www.document.no/anders-behring-breivik/

[pachapapa]

[quote user="Quillan"]

But that's God that did that (flood etc) not humans because he (or possibly she, who knows) the supreme being and we are his 'children' made in his image (which of course is white)

Number 6 of the Ten Commandments (or Sayings if your Jewish) clearly says "You must not kill" (or "thou must not kill" - whatever!). The only ambiguity is what should you not kill. Some may argue that it refers to anything from an ant to anything living on the planet including humans. Our chosen interpretation is that you can actually kill anything except a fellow human being. Then there is an interpretation of what a human being is i.e. in olden days it was anything that was not white and didn't look like a white person so Negro's etc were fair game being classed as either animals or sub-human. This is the biggest problem with religion, it's vagueness which leaves it open to interpretation to whatever you want to make it fit. The only clever bit in some ways are the Ten Commandments which are at the core of most if not all of 'civilised' western law. Personally I think the Bible is, as the name of an old film implies, the greatest story ever told. Logically then this guy that did the bombing and shooting can't be a Christian as he has broken rule/law number 6.

[/quote]

Reports suggest that the Melachim Torah approves a certain degree of subjectivity with respect to Number 6.[:P]

[idun]

Shalt not, well I should not take 'his' name in vain either. I am what? a heretic? I don't know.

As I was saying the god person/entity apparently isn't above  a bit of  mass murder according to the bible and it is justified in said book, well it would be, wouldn't it! Anyway if the men who wrote the definitive version had kept Mrs God in the story line, then who knows maybe the world would be a better place, but maybe not.

I just know what I was told at school and I knew then as an 8/9 year old that there was something 'louche' about the whole thing. And I think far worse of all relgions now and they and their followers frighten me.

 

[audio]

Whatever his religion he is still a murderer.

Determining his beliefs may help in more close monitoring of these people, but then the human rights brigade would kick up.

Like the UK, Norway wants to expel known problems, e.g. Mr.Mullah Krekar but he won’t be deported for fear of execution or torture by his own country. If they are a threat to our countries - get rid of them! I’m a firm believer in putting the hammer down very firmly.

The west has to get tougher and for confirmed cases of guilt, bring back the rope, no doubt you pacifists will call this uncivilised but I say get up to date with survival. When these fanatics are released from jail, they will be hell bent on revenge,

Where are my ear defenders, the HR drums are beating.

This thread has swayed towards religion, looking at the history of the world, aren’t most wars the cause of it?

[Salty Sam]

[quote user="Dog"] Surely that's the point he had effectively denounced religion once he became a freemason, the freemasons will say that they take anyone that believes in a supreme being. Quite how they know this is up to them, but you cannot be a devote Christian and a freemason. If freemasonry is about raising standards and putting men on a better path here is yet another example of its darker side. In just a few weeks freemasonry has been shown in a very bad light yet again.[/quote]

Coming from someone who in their profile states "Gentleman retired Scientologist Bishop", I find your comment pretty rich.

The next thing you'll be telling us is that Freemasonry is strictly 'whites only'!

[JSKS]

It's always convenient to blame religion or some other defined entity for behaviour such as this. It's also convenient for the perpetrators to claim some sort of holy justification.

Religion is just one form of tribalism with which the disaffected can align but they can equally choose nationalism or political belief or any of several ways of claiming allegiance to a group then use this as an excuse to lash out at those they see as not belonging to the tribe.

In reality they are just nutters and it sullies the name of religion, patriotism or whatever to suggest that because one moron uses that as an excuse for barbarity that the religion or whatever is itself complicit.

[Quillan]

[quote user="JK"]It's always convenient to blame religion or some other defined entity for behaviour such as this. It's also convenient for the perpetrators to claim some sort of holy justification. [/quote]

Yes great isn't it. Why bother accepting responsibility yourself when you can blame somebody else or some group.

[pachapapa]

Whilst the 1518 page manifesto by "Berwick" is heavy reading, a quick idea of the mindset can be obtained from the Trailer to 12.22.

It has been already been pulled from youtube so all the youtube tags on blogs will not link.

The trailer is still viewable on VEOH  at the following link; just click on the over 18 years old option and it will open.

Best viewed in full screen mode as some of the script is small and the black red colours dont help.

http://www.veoh.com/watch/v21123164bZCBQeZ8

Loading the VEOH player will allow viewing of complete 12:22 minute video.

P.S. The VEOH link does not work now.

[Dog]

[quote user="pachapapa"]

Whilst the 1518 page manifesto by "Berwick" is heavy reading, a quick idea of the mindset can be obtained from the Trailer to 12.22.

It has been already been pulled from youtube so all the youtube tags on blogs will not link.

The trailer is still viewable on VEOH  at the following link; just click on the over 18 years old option and it will open.

Best viewed in full screen mode as some of the script is small and the black red colours dont help.

http://www.veoh.com/watch/v21123164bZCBQeZ8

Loading the VEOH player will allow viewing of complete 12:22 minute video.

[/quote]

It's plagiarized from the Uni Bomber in US. Just certain words changed.

[Dog]

[quote user="Quillan"]IF he was a Freemason (as has been alleged) then he would be a Christian as he would have sworn his three oaths on a "Norwegian Bible Society" approved Bible. But then as it was also alleged he left Freemasonry some time prior to the killings then he may have turned away from Christianity. Who knows what was in the guys mind or what he really was other than 'disturbed'?[/quote] There are lots of links to him being a Mason but I cannot find a single one to him having left. Perhaps you could give a link please. I think he turned away from Christainity the second he joined the freemasons. Even if as you alledge he left freemasonry he had been in some time to get to 3rd base, are they no checks or concern for members, surely he cannot just leave - would he have to swear out? I look forward to getting the link...

[Salty Sam]

[quote user="Dog"]I think he turned away from Christainity the second he joined the freemasons.[/quote]

Why would you think that? There are plenty of senior church officials proud of their association with Masonry!

[Quillan]

It was in your link you gave earlier and also in the links referred to in that link.

As for the rest of your comments, well it just shows how ignorant you are when it comes the Freemasonry but then you yet again digress which is the norm. Anyway all this stuff is pure speculation, we will hear his reasons on Monday when he makes his statement.