Trapped Miners West Coast New Zealand

[pachapapa]

The accident occurred in a mining area with a history of methane explosions and afterdamp. Difficult to get information in British Press. The link below is informative.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/4365223/Explosion-traps-miners-on-West-Coast

The home page will carry current updates as well.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/

[just john]

BBC breakfast TV carried at least three news updates, including interviews with the rescue team chief (''volunteers and won't go down until the gas is down'') Scottish and Yorkshire men believed to be amongst the trapped.

Also Telegraph this morning. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/australiaandthepacific/newzealand/8148407/New-Zealand-mine-explosion-two-British-workers-among-those-trapped.html

[pachapapa]

Some coverage now on Sky News who have a journalist on site. All rather depressing for me with some Policeman called Knowles talking to the press. He obviously hasn't got the faintest idea as to what may be happening and the whole rescue operation is a farce. The Whittall guy is only marginally better and after reading his Paper on the Pike River Project at a Coal Mining Conference in Australia in 2006 he must have been there boondoggling.

They might as well order the tombstones now!

[PaulT]

[quote user="pachapapa"]

Some coverage now on Sky News who have a journalist on site. All rather depressing for me with some Policeman called Knowles talking to the press. He obviously hasn't got the faintest idea as to what may be happening and the whole rescue operation is a farce. The Whittall guy is only marginally better and after reading his Paper on the Pike River Project at a Coal Mining Conference in Australia in 2006 he must have been there boondoggling.

They might as well order the tombstones now!

[/quote]

Think you are being unfair. The Chile disaster was simply a roof fall. This is a gas explosion with the attend risk of another explosion.

The explosion gas probably taken a great deal of the oxygen - do you think that those in charge think it is a very high certainty that none have survived and do not want recue people dying as well?

[Frederick]

I read that there is a fire still burning underground ... you cant send rescuers into that .

[pachapapa]

By now using Draegers they should already be well inside the access tunnel establishing fresh air bases as they move forward.

Draeger breathing apparatus. A long-service, self-contained, oxygen-breathing apparatus with an entirely lung-governed oxygen feed. It will enable a person to do hard work for a period of 5 hours; in doing normal work, the apparatus will last for 7 hours, and, in the event of a rescue brigade being trapped, it will sustain the men for 18 hours if they sit down and rest. It weighs 40 pounds, and is carried on the wearer's back inside a light metal protecting case with hinged doors.

Oh my dawg they would have to walk uphill with a weight on their back....that takes a real brave man! Parody of Mr Knowles' waffler speak.

[NickP]

papachapa,why don't you just shut the **** up and let the experts get on with their job.Personally I'm not interested in an armchair expert being negative, and constantly making snide remarks about a situation that is beyond our comprehension and fills most of us with horror.

[Quillan]

[quote user="NickP"]papachapa,why don't you just shut the **** up and let the experts get on with their job.Personally I'm not interested in an armchair expert being negative, and constantly making snide remarks about a situation that is beyond our comprehension and fills most of us with horror.[/quote]

He is an expert Nick, I quote his qualifications

"It was very definitely a bit of a culture shock moving from a Bachelor of Science (Engineering) at Imperial College of Science and Engineering to Master of Science in Administrative Sciences at the City University. But frankly I had the important bit of paper with the Associateship of the Royal School of Mines in my knapsack and the Post Graduate course was just the cherry on the cake to impress the natives on my travels.The leisurely year funded kindly by the Social Science Research Council was much appreciated; I shall eternally be in the debt of the British Government. Nevertheless the Masters allowed easy entry as Member of British Institute of Management but more importantly facilitated my entry into the Chilean Institute of Mining Engineers, allowing me to ply my trade as a Chartered Professional Engineer within the country. As always bits of paper help a CV no end"

I wouldn't be surprised if he were not on a plane now on his way to help and show them what to do. [;-)] Nice to see he never brags about anything.

[DerekJ]

papachapa, why don't you catch the next available flight out there and show them how to do it. I'm sure they will be eternally grateful to you for sharing your wisdom.

You could put on the  Draegers and lead them down.

[pachapapa]

[quote user="Quillan"]

[quote user="NickP"]papachapa,why don't you just shut the **** up and let the experts get on with their job.Personally I'm not interested in an armchair expert being negative, and constantly making snide remarks about a situation that is beyond our comprehension and fills most of us with horror.[/quote]

He is an expert Nick, I quote his qualifications

"It was very definitely a bit of a culture shock moving from a Bachelor of Science (Engineering) at Imperial College of Science and Engineering to Master of Science in Administrative Sciences at the City University. But frankly I had the important bit of paper with the Associateship of the Royal School of Mines in my knapsack and the Post Graduate course was just the cherry on the cake to impress the natives on my travels.The leisurely year funded kindly by the Social Science Research Council was much appreciated; I shall eternally be in the debt of the British Government. Nevertheless the Masters allowed easy entry as Member of British Institute of Management but more importantly facilitated my entry into the Chilean Institute of Mining Engineers, allowing me to ply my trade as a Chartered Professional Engineer within the country. As always bits of paper help a CV no end"

I wouldn't be surprised if he were not on a plane now on his way to help and show them what to do. [;-)] Nice to see he never brags about anything.

[/quote]

No! Watching Harry Potter on TF1.

[pachapapa]

[quote user="DerekJ"]papachapa, why don't you catch the next available flight out there and show them how to do it. I'm sure they will be eternally grateful to you for sharing your wisdom.

You could put on the  Draegers and lead them down.
[/quote]

Lead them up! The access tunnel has been developed on upward inclination towards the elevation where the Tertiary coal horizon  is truncated by a fault. An unusual arrangement.

 

[pachapapa]

Knowles reports his department have made contact with experts in the U.S.A who recommended seismic monitoring which he accepts as being an excellent idea.

Another daft idea, IMHO, a french "tarot" card reader might be better.[:@]

He also states that no rescue brigade will be allowed to enter the mine until it is safe " beyond reasonable doubt".

The application of a criminal trial burden of proof is the most fatuous rubbish I seen in a long while.

Even a "balance of probabilities" measure would be a luxury; in mine rescue work it is absolutely necessary to with experience to take immediate on site calculated risks.

A colliery where an explosion has occurred is not gonna get safe by waiting for providence to make it safe.

[Salty Sam]

I believe you are a somewhat elderly gentleman who has not worked in the industry for quite a few years. While you may be able to keep up with current practice via trade and technical journals, techniques change and without up-to-date practical experience, I fail to see how your past experience in whatever capacity, qualifies you to come up with the rather negative comments you have chosen to make.

I'm sure I'm not alone in thinking that if your advice was at all credible, your services would be called upon by those who would value such expertise. As it would appear you are in for a long wait for the call, I suggest you try and obtain the full box set of Harry Potter movies to bide your time.

[pachapapa]

The practicalities of a methane and or coaldust exposion have been fully appreciated since the 19th century a swift perusal of "Germinal" by Zola is a fair example.

Any miner since then required to work in a fiery mine would be instructed in the dangers involved and methods of measuring the degree of danger.

Whether the miner uses a Davy Lamp, Methanometer or receives information from an automatic gas sampling system does not effect the possible danger.

Methane explosions are frequent in underground coal exploitation; it is a well documented fact.

Any competent mine official with fiery mine experience would be more useful than the Police Officer currently running the show.

There is also, IMO, a poor layout and design for the mine which appears to be irrational; the access and ventilation shaft positioning are an example, the impression that I get is that unreasonable restraints were applied to the project by the relevant authority due to the coal resource being in a national park.

It seems to me incredible that delays are incurred in getting permission from the relevant park authority to establish an access trail to a proposed drill rig position. 

The man Knowles is out of his depth and an obstruction to a rational rescue operation; it seems incredible that a system exists for such an appointment to be made.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/pike-river-mine-explosion/4373087/Who-is-Gary-Knowles

Just a word on sampling systems; their principle disadvantage is that they sample the general body of the return air from the workings; an accumulation of methane due to it being lighter than air can often be found in excavations proceeding upwards. I remember whilst working as a Shift Boss in a fiery mine in south africa having two men killed in such an explosion.

 

[pachapapa]

A useful Q&A by experts for, I presume, journalists.

The remarks on robots is particularly relevant.

But then this "mini-expert" having experienced the shambles of pipes, machinery, etc after an explosion could have predicted that....

If any of the Qs or Rs require further explanation then just post and I will endeavour to clarify to the very best of my ability.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/pike-river-mine-explosion/4373504/Experts-explain-mine-conditions

[Salty Sam]

[quote user="pachapapa"]

By now using Draegers they should already be well inside the access tunnel establishing fresh air bases as they move forward.

Draeger breathing apparatus. A long-service, self-contained, oxygen-breathing apparatus with an entirely lung-governed oxygen feed. It will enable a person to do hard work for a period of 5 hours; in doing normal work, the apparatus will last for 7 hours, and, in the event of a rescue brigade being trapped, it will sustain the men for 18 hours if they sit down and rest. It weighs 40 pounds, and is carried on the wearer's back inside a light metal protecting case with hinged doors.

Oh my dawg they would have to walk uphill with a weight on their back....that takes a real brave man! Parody of Mr Knowles' waffler speak.

[/quote]

Just to clarify. The above extract from Webster's Online is not accurate.

The New Zealand and Australian Mine Rescue Services favour the use of  the Draeger PSS BG4 Breathing Apparatus, which provides a working duration of  up to 4 hours.

http://www.draeger.com/media/10/02/44/10024406/pss_bg4_plus_pi_9044832_en.pdf

The following article from an expert rescue team member puts the whole thing in context.

[quote]The brave rescue teams face a harrowing two-hour walk each carrying up to 24 kilograms of equipment into the mine to search for their trapped ''brothers''.

One of the missing men is one of their own - a mines rescue worker. But the situation is so dangerous one worker taking samples from the mine surface on Saturday had to be evacuated.

As soon as the poisonous gases have reduced to safe levels in the chambers, the rescuers assembled at the mine entrance will make their painstaking descent. 

''The logistics of deployment underground are quite vast,'' Trevor Watt, the general manager of NZ Mine Rescue, said.

''We're talking 2.5 kilometres from the portal to the first intersection in the mine that will have to be done on foot by the rescue teams - this is not like walking down to the local supermarket.''

His greatest worry is the ''explosive atmosphere'' in the mine.

Once in the mine breathing equipment will give rescuers just enough time to travel the length of the tunnel. It may take up to two hours to navigate the path on the reconnaissance mission.

''This will be a staged entry into the mine. We will be securing areas in the mine but I must reiterate it's going to be safety first.''

Mr Watt was vague on what would happen once the men reached the end of the tunnel, however. ''We have strict protocols on how we work … and we'll have systems in place … [for how] we manage the time frames they are working in.''

The rescuers will carry 14-kilogram ''rebreather'' apparatus, plus up to 10 kilograms of essential kit.

But the operation would not allow any individuals who volunteered to risk their lives and enter the mine - this could ''exacerbate'' the situation, he said.

''We've got 30 brave men waiting to go underground. The whole lot of them are our brothers,'' Mr Watt said. ''This is the West Coast. We're a small community and we know all of these guys there. If there was the slightest opportunity to go underground we will be.''

Gas samples are being taken every 30 minutes. The analysis is being done by some of the world's most respected experts, Mr Watt said.

Careful drilling of a borehole - to allow better access to take samples - began yesterday afternoon and could take up to 24 hours.

Putting robots and cameras down the mine has already been ruled out due to fears they might ignite another blast.

Six five-men rescue teams, working eight-hour shifts, are on site and ready to be deployed.

''They are professionals. We keep them fully informed on an hourly basis,'' Mr Watt said. That regular flow of information was keeping frustration at bay.

Incident managers are meeting every hour to assess the situation.

A seven-man team of rescue experts from Australia are ready in Christchurch should the mercy mission need them.

Two rescue managers from NSW are also helping Mr Watt.

Mines in Otago and Waihi also have men on standby to help.

The Press, Christchurch[/quote]

[pachapapa]

 face a harrowing two-hour walk each carrying up to 24 kilograms of equipment

This krap was paraphrased by the Knowles character.....if it is seriously  verbatim from a mines rescue type he must have been on skunk or had a line of coke[:D]

Draeger PSS BG4  Yeah! used by South African PROTO teams since 1998, the EN 145 made it the choice in Europe.

Still a few SSRCs I suspect but 90 minutes big draw back, useful for supply to fresh air base.

SA teams train for second degree acclimatisation areas; 42 °C and 99% relative humidity....now that really would be harrowing for a New Zealander.[:)]

[NickP]

Sorry pachapapa but I take exception to your attitude in continually trying to score points in this matter. Your constant sneering is boring and adds nothing to a very sorry storey that has yet to unfold it's true horrors.

[pachapapa]

[quote user="NickP"]

Sorry pachapapa but I take exception to your attitude in continually trying to score points in this matter. Your constant sneering is boring and adds nothing to a very sorry storey that has yet to unfold it's true horrors.

[/quote]

And it took just 2 hours for the army robot to break down this morning...indeed a sad story.

[Gardengirl]

I listened to an interview with a 'mine safety expert' on R4 this morning. He said that this mine near Greymouth was one with first class standards of safety and everything else, and is a massive underground maze. The owners and investors are amongst the cream of the crop, apparently, and something like this happening in NZ was unexpected, although gas problems are to be expected.  

[pachapapa]

[quote user="gardengirl "]I listened to an interview with a 'mine safety expert' on R4 this morning. He said that this mine near Greymouth was one with first class standards of safety and everything else, and is a massive underground maze. The owners and investors are amongst the cream of the crop, apparently, and something like this happening in NZ was unexpected, although gas problems are to be expected.  [/quote]

A massive underground maze!  Not true.

The mine is still not in full production with only limited development of tunnels to establish working faces. The production of coal from the mine has been only from tunnel development within the coal seam.

The diagram below gives a general idea of the layout of the mine at the end of the 2.5 km access tunnel.

[IMG]http://static.stuff.co.nz/files/minemapb620.png[/IMG]

The diagram above will help in understanding the explanation given by the mine manager; just click on the link and wait for the video at the top of the page to open.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/pike-river-mine-explosion/4374215/Mine-blast-footage-Considerable-force

[Gardengirl]

The diagram looks a bit of a maze to me - but I can claim no technical expertise.

The mother of the young lad trapped in the mine in the explosion said she didn't have any hope, after hearing about the force of the explosion. She said he had been so proud to be starting work at the mine that it gave them joy to see; he had been doing something he'd really wanted to do.

It's all so sad.

[Frederick]

Terrible news today of another blast from within the mine .  Very sad .

http://www.uknetguide.co.uk/Latest-News/No-survivors-after-second-blast-at-New-Zealand-mine-800253341.html

[Salty Sam]

Very sad indeed. [:(]

Thankfully though, the fatality list wasn't greater - as it well could have been if rescuers had been allowed to enter.

[Gardengirl]

Some may think things were taken a bit slowly regarding a rescue attempt. But this second explosion would seem to point to it being correct; it would have been far worse if rescuers had been in there at work. Very sad.