UK Education

[Katt]

A very interesting thread - rather like those of a bygone time.

I agree pretty much totally with Mac and Betty. Indeed,with respect to Mac, I too, went to a Technical High School (one type of three schools) and observed the "two tier" approach of either academic or technical within it. I took the academic route to eventually PhD (in Physics) whilst some of my friends took the technical (plumber, electrician) route. Which route is better is very debatable. For some reason there were not too many arty types??!!

With regard to today's politics on this thread's topic, in my opinion our deputy prime minister is well off the mark objecting to a two tier system when even in today's comprehensive schools the pupils, by necessity, are banded into A or B bands with even more separation either above or below these academic groupings. Typical liberal thinking which is useful in tempering right or left wing extremes, but totally impractical as stand alone (smiley here!). I would agree with him if he could spend his time reducing the divide between private and public schools.

ClarkKent asks what is wrong with media studies. He / She is right in arguing that a university education is more than just learning the subject, but even this has been diluted by the plethora of students doing a plethora of degrees in a plethora of universities. As Betty intimates, though, Media Studies seems to be a subject that has become know as second rate degree material. Taking a newer Russell group university (York) for no particular reason, media studies is not even offered as a specific subject but as part of more specific subjects (eg digital media) which can command higher entry qualifications. Soft subjects should be looked at carefully and more applied degrees replaced with more appropriate vocational qualifications.

Mr R51

[Clarkkent]

[quote user="You can call me Betty"]There's nothing wrong with a degree in any subject per se, but just how many JOBS are available in Media Studies? And how many people undertake a degree in something like that with a clear objective in terms of future employment? Yes, of course, the same applies to many courses. I obviously hit a very raw nerve with you by choosing only one.[:D]. I could have said "English" or "History", but I didn't. [/quote]

 

You haven't hit any nerve at all. But I fear you have missed the point that I was trying to make: that it does not matter what subject is studied, it is the development of intellectual, general, non-specific skills not vocational skills (which may have a useful life of only a few years anyway) which is important. These intellectual skills can be developed just as easily in Media Studies as in any other subject.

 

[quote]Just out of idle curiosity, have a look at the "Prospects" website, and you'll see that in 2004/5 there were more Media Studies graduates than those graduating in, for example, Electrical Engineering. There were more than double the number of Media Studies grads than Civil Engineers. I don't remember reading that the country was crying out for Media Studies graduates anywhere, though.[/quote]

 

I doubt that the country is crying out for English graduates, either, but I'll bet that there are even more of them.

[quote]Graduate employers (generally speaking) are looking for people who have not only "skills", but skills applicable to their business requirements...many of them quite specific. In addition, they're looking for evidence of common sense and the ability to work well in a team, to understand and correctly interpret instructions, and  some track record of previous employment, even if it's only a long-standing holiday job or Saturday job. [/quote]

 

Graduate employers ought to be looking for people who can be developed into managers at some time in the future. The higher an indivdual progresses through an organisation, the less important their technical, vocational skills become. Their high level intellectual skills - the ability to define a problem, analyse its components, develop alternative possible solutions, evaluate those solutions and then convince the organisation to adopt the solution you have determined - are much more useful than technical skills. These skills are the important ones being developed by a university degree.

[quote]When I was actively involved in graduate recruitment over a period of some eight years, one of the things I always looked for was the ability to write and spell. That's a fairly rare commodity regardless of the discipline studied.[/quote]

 

When I was teaching in a university business school, I, too, concerned myself with the ability to write and spell and developed assessment strategies which highlighted the importance of written (and spoken) language skills. I agree with you about their importance. I was also concerned with students' numerical skills and their ability to use quantitatative information effectively.

[quote]I don't think you can generalise that any particular subject area produces people that are better at one thing than others, as much depends on the institution. For example, there was much ado about our local University (Thames Valley) releasing people into the world of work, clutching a Law Degree where the pass mark in finals was a whopping 23%. (That's "mark"..not a misprint). [/quote]

 

Interesting, but probably acceptable to the external examiners whose role is to ensure that the examination process is valid. What do you know about pass standards at other institutions, especially those which employ the external examiners?  What do you know about the process or circumstances which resulted in 23% being accepted as an appropriate mark? Or did the Slough Gazette (or whatever it may be called) present this story sensationally?

[woolybanana]

Put it this way, CK, Thames Valley nearly went under and the Director resigned. Bordel sums it up! And, yes, I did work there and was glad top get out. Long story.

 

[Hoddy]

" even in today's comprehensive schools the pupils, by necessity, are banded into A or B bands with even more separation either above or below these academic groupings. Typical liberal thinking which is useful in tempering right or left wing extremes, but totally impractical as stand alone (smiley here!). "

Good comprehensive schools with skillful timetablers can overcome this difficulty by having a whole year doing maths, for example, at the same time. This way pupils can be graded within their year according to their particular talents. The old streaming system where the band a pupil was placed in depended on the amount of influence a particular department had in the school is not so much used any more; certainly not in the best ones.

Hoddy

[Quillan]

I just had a look on a major (non government) recruiting website out of curiosity as I am well out of touch.

The following is a list of some sectors that placed job adverts in the last 24 hours.

Media - 95

Engineering - 509

Legal - 23

Civil Engineering - 46

Healthcare - 1,907

IT and Telecommunications - 13,901

Now obviously this is only one agency but I would imagine that it gives a reasonable idea skill set wise what companies are looking for.

[Russethouse]

Last night it was said that the Micheal Gove 'leak' probably has a lot more behind it and it would become clearer as time goes on.

Val, Is you nephew in the Thames Valley ? It's one of the least affected areas of the recession, if immigrants with little or no English can find work, why can't he ? Even if he signs on at manpower or some such, it's better than being sat at home all day. Or maybe if he is interested in catering he could start just washing up somewhere to get a feel for what's involved.

[Katt]

Hoddy

My comments were based on my experience of teaching maths in a comprehensive school 35 years ago. My kids were also in a comprehensive school until 3 yrs ago and that school, which is supposed to be one of the best in the area, practised streaming, including banding, even then. Postcode lottery?

Irrespective of current liberal educational practises, I really do think that not advocating some form of streaming/selection/grading is totally impractical for pupils of various abilities. Examinations are one method of doing this, which are then ultimately used as a tool in the world of selection of people for jobs. I must agree, though, that bull (sorry verbal skills), especially in people management areas, is another criterion used for jobs.

[YCCMB]

[quote user="Clarkkent"]

Interesting, but probably acceptable to the external examiners whose role is to ensure that the examination process is valid. What do you know about pass standards at other institutions, especially those which employ the external examiners?  What do you know about the process or circumstances which resulted in 23% being accepted as an appropriate mark? Or did the Slough Gazette (or whatever it may be called) present this story sensationally?

[/quote]

I think Woolly has answered this, in part. But to elaborate on the case in point, this was nationally, rather than locally reported at the time. I'm not sure the law course was taught on the Slough campus, nor do I read a local newspaper, so I wouldn't have read it there. I think it initially came to light as a result of the circumstances alluded to by Woolly, i.e.  the total mismanagement of the University and a damning report by the QAA which, if you are interested, is here:[url]https://qaa.ac.uk/reviews/reports/institutional/TVU/tvu.asp[/url] and will tell you how much I know about the points you raised, given that I read it at the time..

[Hoddy]

Katt the only bit I was disagreeing with was 'by necessity'.

During my period of teaching we changed from streaming to setting. It involved a major upheaval to the timetable but it was possible and the results were excellent.

I think what bothers me most is the rapid changeover of ministers for education and that they seem to introduce policies on a personal whim rather than laying out a clear objective and supplying some evidence that this latest change (whatever it is) will achieve it.

Now if they would make me minister for education .....

Hoddy

[Rabbie]

I agree with those posters who feel that a degree is not necessary for many jobs/careers.  In my own case I started a course in Chemical Engineering but jumped off after 18 months when I realised it was not what I wanted to do. I then went into Computer Programmind which was much more to my taste and with the help of on the job training managed to have a siccessful career in this field.

Going back to a previous generation my father qualified as a solicitor by working as an articled clerk - a route no longer possible(a law degree is now obligatory).

I remember hearing in the early 60's Kingsley Amis saying rhat "More means worse" when there was an expansion of universities

[YCCMB]

[quote user="Russethouse"]Media studies was probably a bad choice of example, as my guess is that are quite a lot of jobs where that degree would be useful. My daughter got a BSc in Media and Communication and apart from six months has been employed in that sphere since leaving Uni 7 - 8 years ago, and now has what I would term a very reasonable job.

However I take the point, how many jobs are there in Art & Design, or even History of Art ?[/quote]

Dunno about History of Art..although for some it seems to open up career prospects in the Army.[Www]

Art...well, despite working pretty hard on him to back it up with a night school course in plumbing, the senior offspring wanted to study art, and went off to University to do just that. To my great surprise, he's never been unemployed yet, although mostly freelance, working very much in his field as a technician for other artists, complemented by working for a couple of galleries on installing/uninstalling of shows and so on as well as studying for his Masters. No one is more surprised than me that there seems to be so much work available, providing you're prepared to work hard and you're good and reliable. I doubt he'll ever earn a six figure salary, but I also doubt he'll ever be unemployed. And, believe me, if there was a hat to be eaten, I'd be eating it.

[Russethouse]

A 'step' relative is currently doing an Art Degree, she has chosen to go towards 'textiles' can there really be all that many jobs available in that sphere? I guess we'll see.......

Going back to a previous thing though, the person in question seems unable to understand the rudiments of budgeting or of basic contracts...... No matter whether children are going to further education or not my feeling is that there should be education in basic finance, managing and understanding loans, credit cards, contracts etc.....

[YCCMB]

[quote user="Russethouse"]A 'step' relative is currently doing an Art Degree, she has chosen to go towards 'textiles' can there really be all that many jobs available in that sphere? I guess we'll see........[/quote]

No use asking me...I'm a textile technologist!!! [:D] Yes indeed, in the world of bizarre degree qualifications, I've hit the jackpot, having a degree in French with Textile Technology.

I think that if you want to be an artist AND you want to go to University, then it does seem logical to study art. In that respect, it is a vocational degree. And it could be argued that there are NO jobs for "artists". Well, apart from the occasional commission. I don't think there's ever been a point in history where the headlines have read "Country suffering from shortage of artists". But then, if you want to study art, chances are you don't have in the back of your mind a plan to apply for a job at  KPMG or M&S at the end of your course.....

[Thibault]

For many years, education has been tying itself in knots over 'parity of esteem' between academic and vocational subjects.  As part of this, they have tried various measures to 'even out' the distinctions between them.  In the process, they have watered down the academic side and beefed up the vocational side and as a consequence failed both sets of students.

I have never understood why it is politically OK for schools/academies or whatever to select on skills such as music and sport, but not on academic ability.  I guess it is all part of the political correctness idea that everyone has the potential to be academic and if they are not, it is down to external circumstances, rather than anything within the child.

If there is to be a 'return' to grammar schools (whatever they're called) where the brightest academic children are taught, then there must be equally well-funded and staffed technical schools which can provide a high standard of vocational skills teaching for those whose aptitudes are more suited to less academic studies.

 

[Russethouse]

It will be interesting to see what Micheal Gove comes up with, it's suspected that the return to O levels was just a headline and there is more to it than that......

What concerns me about vocational training is that there are less jobs in the UK now, or seem to be where engineers etc are required.....

[Quillan]

[quote user="Thibault"]

For many years, education has been tying itself in knots over 'parity of esteem' between academic and vocational subjects.  As part of this, they have tried various measures to 'even out' the distinctions between them.  In the process, they have watered down the academic side and beefed up the vocational side and as a consequence failed both sets of students.

I have never understood why it is politically OK for schools/academies or whatever to select on skills such as music and sport, but not on academic ability.  I guess it is all part of the political correctness idea that everyone has the potential to be academic and if they are not, it is down to external circumstances, rather than anything within the child.

If there is to be a 'return' to grammar schools (whatever they're called) where the brightest academic children are taught, then there must be equally well-funded and staffed technical schools which can provide a high standard of vocational skills teaching for those whose aptitudes are more suited to less academic studies.

[/quote]

I agree with 99% of what you have said except for the first sentence. It's not education its self but politicians who have done this with their 'fiddling' with it for political gain. The problem with education is that, in most cases, if you make a change it will be some years before you see the result.

My first year of secondary education was in a comprehensive school, one of the first ever purposely built ones. There was a grading system, we had the Alpha set at the top, equivalent to grammar school then the A, B and C forms. Within each form you had sub forms 1, 2, 3 and 4. Now obviously this was to cater for the quantity of pupils yet the kids say those in B4 as being the thickest. So as you can see there was clearly a streaming system in action.

From Hoddy's comment earlier this system was obviously abandoned at some stage although I still suspect there is some form of streaming be it a bit more subtle.

I do feel that grammar schools should be bought back and I agree with your comment that technical schools should be bought back as well and that they should be, quality wise, of the same standard.

[YCCMB]

[quote user="Quillan"]

I do feel that grammar schools should be bought back and I agree with your comment that technical schools should be bought back as well and that they should be, quality wise, of the same standard.

[/quote]

Where I live, they never went away.....

[Hoddy]

Q on the subject of streaming -

perhaps I didn't explain very well. Our kids could be promoted or demoted in maths and English very much more easily than they could under the old streaming system where teachers argued in favour of someone who was good in their subject. The setting system we had was much easier and more flexible. It also engendered fierce competition among the kids.

It was done in response to the fact that we always had a high (always between 40 & 50 %) ethnic minority intake. Some of those kids were very able mathematically, but could not cope in high level English classes.

For most folks on this forum their own experience of school is irrelevant really. The UK is a very different place now.

Hoddy

[Thibault]

quote user="Quillan"][ snip

I agree with 99% of what you have said except for the first sentence. It's not education its self but politicians who have done this with their 'fiddling' with it for political gain.  snip Quote

I think you'll find, Quillan, that there is a large proportion of those in education who have fought for 'parity of esteem' and all that goes with it, not just politicians. [;-)]

I was reading an article in The Observer this morning which is very interesting.  The Local Government Association has carried out some research.  It found that (nationally) 94,000 people completed hair and beauty courses last year, but the number of new jobs created in that area was only 18,000.  57,000 of the hair and beauty 'graduates' were aged between 16-18 - presumably unable to find a job.  83,000 young people were trained in media, journalism and PR, but there were only 65,000 vacancies in these areas.  However in construction, 123,000 people were trained for 275,000 jobs.  Only 40,000 people trained to fill 72,000 jobs in building and engineering.

So it would seem there is a fertile jobs market for some vocational areas.

[Russethouse]

[quote user="You can call me Betty"][quote user="Quillan"]

I do feel that grammar schools should be bought back and I agree with your comment that technical schools should be bought back as well and that they should be, quality wise, of the same standard.

[/quote]

Where I live, they never went away.....
[/quote]

Same here Betty......in fact my daughters primary school head wanted to keep my daughter at primary school another year (she has a Sept birthday) so she could sit the exam for Kendrick, however I didn't feel she would enjoy that environment so pushed for her to leave and go to the comprehensive with all her friends. She later had a gap year and started Uni with people of her own age. I've never regretted it - horses for courses.

Hoddy, I know the Uk has changed, but in the recent past we seem to be only valuing the academic and I believe Mr Blair was at least in part to blame for that.

[Russethouse]

The hair and beauty courses stat is interesting because traditionally these vacancies were filled by apprentices who had likely started at a salon as a 'Saturday Girl' and would then go on day release to college and to appropriate courses run by manufacturers of hair products ( colouring, etc) until they had gained a qualification.

I thought they still did things in a fairly similar way?

[Hoddy]

Hoddy, I know the Uk has changed, but in the recent past we seem to be only valuing the academic and I believe Mr Blair was at least in part to blame for that.

Couldn't agree more RH. For me the trouble is that Gove seems to be going even further down that road.

Hoddy

[Russethouse]

I'm hoping that the return to O levels headline is just part of a wider program.......

[Rabbie]

The british have always undervalued Engineers(who they see as people in oily overalls) and other practical skills compared to more purely intellectual subjects.

I remember being told this at Uni in the 60's so for once I don't think we can blame Blair for this. I suspect that Gove is just kite flying at the moment.

[woolybanana]

Well, at TVU there used to be a module in kite flying!