Snipes

[Patf]

I agree too with ALBF's post on the previous page. Houses in the Gers have always been cheap, but there are few jobs here apart from agriculture.

I haven't taken part in this discussion because we hope to remain one way or another .

We live a very simple life and are used to tightening our belts if necessary. The only worry is if the British economy really went downhill they might stop paying my civil service - type pension.

Never sniped at the Brexit result (though surprised) because husband was pro-Brexit ( he's anti- Cameron.)

[Chancer]

[quote user="lindal1000"]his daughter is starting at University next year. (She is devastated by s the brexit vote as she wants to study modern languages and was hoping to do some of her course in the UK). [/quote]

 

No reason to be, France remains part of the EU and the majority of project Erasmus and Erasmus + funding has always been for learning English and that will always be in a UK learning establishment unless somewhere like Holland or Germany get their act together. In the long run they probably will but for the next 5 years at least all the Erasmus English language students will continue to go to the UK.

[Gluestick]

UK universities are awash with foreign students, most of whom emanate from non-EU nations.

Furthermore, certain European students will have far better academic skills than most of the UK schools products, who tend to finish up as Tesco shelf-stackers with a err, "Degree" from supposed universities....

(Ex External University BSchool examiner and moderator)

[idun]

Ah no, not the comparing universities debate and the qualifications. Won't wash. Look at the french double layer:- there are Universities and then there are the Grandes Ecoles.

And my experience is that is not just the UK by any means.

Many friends of my kids, with degrees from french universities did not necessarily manage to get good jobs in France, at all. Even those who went on to get their masters, never mind a degree, many had trouble finding employment.  Many retrained in other fields and hadn't needed their degree in the first place. And the wise ones who did the old DEUG (LMD?), in general, faired quite well.

[lindal1000]

Chancer the issue is that at the moment while in the EU, the funding is guaranteed but once the Uk leaves no one knows. University courses are planned 2-3 years in advance. Erasmus funding is not just for learning English but provides the funds for Universities to set up exchanges and courses across several EU countries. I taught on one of those courses and it's future is now uncertain. Last year I was helping to coordinate an exchange programme between Tours and Brighton..this is now on hold until the situation is clearer.

This girl already speaks good English so she does not need more..she wanted to do her intern year in a British based publishers..this is now uncertain. She was also hoping to work in France and the UK after her degree. I feel for her generation.. My nephew has just applied for an Italian passport so that he can keep his right to work throughout Europe, but my sisters kids haven't got a way in.

[lindal1000]

GLuestick

I disagree with your rather jaded view of Universities. Every single one of our graduates got a job from our 'supposed' University. Probably because many courses are profession specific (engineering, hospitality and management, healthcare etc.) We had many Eu students, on my course mainly from the Republic of Ireland.

(Former external examiner, BSc, MSc Doctoral examiner, UK, Éire )

[Gluestick]

Grads with good degrees in areas where such are sought have no problem.

See here:

Problem is, far too many ersatz universities, are turning out so-called graduates with Mickey Mouse degrees in silly lightweight made up subjects: meeja studies is now it seems to equivalent of Sociology back in the 1980s...

My office used to receive endless "over the transom" letters from kids obviously desperate for a real job. No chance when they couldn't actually write properly. Almost daily, I receive "letters" from major UK companies which are embarrassing; English? I fear not.

In circa 1990, I was asked to act as a Moderator, for a London University BSchool: mature MBA students, on exchange from Heidelberg for a residential. The last day were the summing up and presentations of their group project for assessment. The leader of the winning team was Chinese; her mother tongue was Mandarin; she was studying in German in Germany and presented the 30 minute introduction, content and analysis and finally, pertinent conclusions in fluent English!

Sorry lindal, Britain can no longer compete, globally and create and maintain competitive advantage. Which is why the economy is based on house price boom-busts and debt manufacturing.

One only needs to study and evaluate the speed at which China and India are turning out science and engineering graduates and the numbers.

Meanwhile:

[woolybanana]

Gooliestick, so much common sense which should have penetrated to the powers that be so long ago. Would you be an advisor to Mrs May, who is now the PM, I understand, or is such too much for our sterile political class?

I taught at one of those Mickey Mouse institutions for a while, the one and only time in my career, and left with a sense of deep shame. What worries me is that some of the staff are still around, though in the Corbyn camp.

RIP UK?

[nomoss]

[quote user="Gluestick"]Grads with good degrees in areas where such are sought have no problem....................................................................

................... Sorry lindal, Britain can no longer compete, globally and create and maintain competitive advantage. Which is why the economy is based on house price boom-busts and debt manufacturing.

[/quote]

Sadly that seems to be the case.

Our son, with 8 "proper" "O" level GCEs and Maths and Physics at "A" level was talked into doing a degree in "Systems Engineering" at Portsmouth, which sounded to me like a Jack of all trades qualification.

Apparently prospective employers had similar opinion, so he suffered a series of more or less dead-end jobs, starting with Westinghouse (Brake & Signal, not the US company) and then a series of companies providing "consultants" in UK and Germany.

Eventually, at his own expense, he completed a Master's in Wind Engineering in Copenhagen, went straight to design team leader with the biggest turbine manufacturer in Denmark, and is now a certifying engineer with Det Norske Veritas.

[woolybanana]

Bit of a breeze, then?

[nomoss]

[quote user="woolybanana"]Bit of a breeze, then?[/quote]

Well, his salary "blows" my mind, I thought I used to make a lot, but he still calls me sometimes with an electrical problem[;-)]

[nomoss]

[quote user="Gluestick"]

Problem is, far too many ersatz universities, are turning out so-called graduates with Mickey Mouse degrees in silly lightweight made up subjects: meeja studies is now it seems to equivalent of Sociology back in the 1980s.

[/quote]

Not to worry. I just heard on BBC News that Britain is now an "Olympic Superpower", so who needs education? They have masses of, mainly, poorly educated kids who can run faster, jump higher and further, paddle a canoe quicker, etc. etc., than anyone else.

Listening to the interviews with some of the medalists I wondered if they could perhaps have usefully spent a bit more time in school than they did in the gym, but that's just my view. They can't all rely on sponsorship from companies making gymshoes in Far Eastern sweatshops for their future.

I think that the position might change once Russia is allowed back in, even though, as we all know, they are the only people who use drugs,

[lindal1000]

I'm surprised at you Gluestick, as an academic not checking your sources. If you follow the link to the supposed course at Plymouth you will find that the page no longer exists. Furthermore if you search for the course on their website you will find no trace.

You cannot compare experiences of 20 years ago with what is happening today in all Universities. The quality assurance mechanisms are very strict, and courses that do not pass get shelved pretty quickly. They are evaluated on a number of criteria, but employability afterwards is a key feature and why the Universities have to follow students after graduation.

Yes , in all places there are a few people, now close to retirement, who refuse to move with the times and as they are close to retirement they can't be made redundant because it is too expensive! That said, as you can still retire at 60 in teaching most of them would be gone now.

Our healthcare graduates at Brighton are internationally recognised, although not perhaps as academically rigorous as perhaps Sweden..but then the funding system in Sweden actually provides money for people to be research active, rather than expecting them to do this in their spare time, after teaching.

[Gluestick]

[quote user="woolybanana"]Gooliestick, so much common sense which should have penetrated to the powers that be so long ago. Would you be an advisor to Mrs May, who is now the PM, I understand, or is such too much for our sterile political class?

I taught at one of those Mickey Mouse institutions for a while, the one and only time in my career, and left with a sense of deep shame. What worries me is that some of the staff are still around, though in the Corbyn camp.

RIP UK?[/quote]

Woolie:

Most of my Bschool work was at MBA level. Now, as you know, the essential precursor screening for a good MBA (and an AMBA requirement) is for a student to pass the GMAT.

I waxed lyrical, when foreign students whose English was, shall we say rudimentary, were pushed onto MBA courses. No GMAT  and not a hope in hell of them passing one!

Sadly, the days are past when an Indian gentleman perceived value in having his business card state:

Mustapha Patel BSc, (London Econ- failed). e.g.

Prior to my BSchool stint, I was recruited to act as a governor of a troubled and failing secondary school, by the County Council. This was at the time of the introduction of LMS (Local Management of Schools) and they needed finance input.

To my horror, I discovered, when a charming and very capable remedial teacher addressed the Board, 90% of the pupils commencing their first year had a reading, writing, comprehension and arithmetic age of circa 7+ 90 PERCENT!!

Obviously, there was simply no way these kids could understand the first year's study.

However, this amazing lady taught the same kids for just two two hour sessions per week, for their first six months, and had 90% of the 90% up to 12+.

Naturally, the Area Education Office cancelled the funding and stated unequivocally it was not necessary! The same LEA cancelled any remedial funding for Dyslexia; "Since there was no such thing!"

Right.

The only possible conclusion one could reach was primary and junior schools had failed; and failed, utterly, completely and appallingly.

Luckily after a short time the dedicated half-mad fervent Lefty Liberal head took early retirement and we all heaved a sigh of relief, and recruited a new young charging vital head teacher, the school was turned around, became GMS and from a place where if the local selection process decided to send their kids to the old school, they would sell up and move into a caravan miles away, first: to a school now where parents are queuing up to secure a place.

It made and still makes me very angry indeed!  [:@]

To take young minds and spirits when they might achieve so much in life for themselves and for others and for society and consign them to the academic dustbin purely as a political football in a spavined cause of the illusion of egalitarianism is nothing more than child abuse.

Sorry and apols. rant over.

[Gluestick]

[quote user="nomoss"][quote user="Gluestick"]

Problem is, far too many ersatz universities, are turning out so-called graduates with Mickey Mouse degrees in silly lightweight made up subjects: meeja studies is now it seems to equivalent of Sociology back in the 1980s.

[/quote]

Not to worry. I just heard on BBC News that Britain is now an "Olympic Superpower", so who needs education? They have masses of, mainly, poorly educated kids who can run faster, jump higher and further, paddle a canoe quicker, etc. etc., than anyone else.

[/quote]

Couldn't agree more, nomoss.

Read the only person on the Mail (Mail on Sunday) with any nous. On this very topic, last Sunday: Peter Hitchens:

Here:

[Hoddy]

So in the light of all this analysis what advice would you offer to today's teenagers ? This question is close to my heart I have two teenage grandchildren; one who has just completed GCSEs and one who is just choosing their subjects.

[Gluestick]

[quote user="Hoddy"]So in the light of all this analysis what advice would you offer to today's teenagers ? This question is close to my heart I have two teenage grandchildren; one who has just completed GCSEs and one who is just choosing their subjects.[/quote]

May I start, Hoddy, by providing two real life examples?

One of my closest friends has three kids. Lovely people, all of them.

The eldest, originally read chemistry at Durham: excellent first degree. Moved horses and joined PwC and qualified as an FCA (Chartered Accountant). Now very successful and making bundles.

The second eldest, took a good first degree and moved into banking to "Make myself really wealthy!"

The youngest, my favourite is utterly charming and is managing a pub and doing quite well. He is very happy.

If I had a child of school age, then I would steer him/her into (probably) economics, ensuring they had excellent maths skills. Plus languages. And advise them to leave Europe and move abroad.

If they do wish to stay, then banking or trading for a while, make some serious money and depart these shores......

Now, anyone with a real engineering bent, then no contest: Loughborough, but specialising, not generalising. I have met loads of youngsters with a "Degree" in IT; whatever that means. But only a few who actually knew their subject; the very best came from Loughborough.

Britain only had two ICT stars: Dr Mike Lynch (Alchemy) and Herman Houser et al who founded Arm Holdings. Hauser of course was the man who led the team to create the BBC Micro, then the Archimedes, then Arm which, of course has nearly now been sold, to Japan...

What is left in terms of ICT Hi Tech?. Silicon Roundabout!

Here:

Alchemy was sold to HP for billions; they were whining again as they do, afterwards.

There are far too many accountants, lawyers et al fighting for good diminishing job opportunities.

[Gluestick]

Interesting stats here on grads and work.

Here:

Here:

[nomoss]

[quote user="Gluestick"][quote user="nomoss"][quote user="Gluestick"]

Problem is, far too many ersatz universities, are turning out so-called graduates with Mickey Mouse degrees in silly lightweight made up subjects: meeja studies is now it seems to equivalent of Sociology back in the 1980s.

[/quote]

Not to worry. I just heard on BBC News that Britain is now an "Olympic Superpower", so who needs education? They have masses of, mainly, poorly educated kids who can run faster, jump higher and further, paddle a canoe quicker, etc. etc., than anyone else.

[/quote]

Couldn't agree more, nomoss.

Read the only person on the Mail (Mail on Sunday) with any nous. On this very topic, last Sunday: Peter Hitchens:

Here:

[/quote]

Strange country. Hitchens missed out texting as an Olympic sport.

One of the (many) reasons we left the UK was that our two children, who previously had sporting activities as part of their daily life, found that the only activity in the huge comprehensive school we sent them to was gang warfare.

Previously a famous grammar school, the huge playing fields were unused except for a ridiculous sports day once a year where kids were liable to injury through lack of practice, and the tennis courts were locked and out of bounds because no teachers would supervise them.

Before we bought the house and moved there we met the headmaster, but did not realise he thought it was still the grammar school, and described everything to us as it had been 5 years before. We realised later that he was deluded and unfortunately it was during the holidays so we didn't see the real situation until too late.

Our options were to sell up and move where there was a better school, or send them to boarding schools, as there were no private schools near enough.

As we had temporarily experienced another quite bad comprehensive school we were not sure any good ones existed. Both children had already had two years as boarders and we all wanted nothing more than for them to live at home again.

The final straw was when the school told us that our daughter was only capable of doing two GCSEs, Art and English, and that our son also had problems.

We are so glad we left the UK and the awful system there. Both offspring have degrees as well as being fluent in Spanish and French.

[Gluestick]

[quote user="nomoss"]

Strange country. Hitchens missed out texting as an Olympic sport.[/quote].

[:D]

[quote]One of the (many) reasons we left the UK was that our two children, who previously had sporting activities as part of their daily life, found that the only activity in the huge comprehensive school we sent them to was gang warfare.[/quote]

Brilliantly funny, nomoss!

[quote]Previously a famous grammar school, the huge playing fields were unused except for a ridiculous sports day once a year where kids were liable to injury through lack of practice, and the tennis courts were locked and out of bounds because no teachers would supervise them.

Before we bought the house and moved there we met the headmaster, but did not realise he thought it was still the grammar school, and described everything to us as it had been 5 years before. We realised later that he was deluded and unfortunately it was during the holidays so we didn't see the real situation until too late.

Our options were to sell up and move where there was a better school, or send them to boarding schools, as there were no private schools near enough.

As we had temporarily experienced another quite bad comprehensive school we were not sure any good ones existed. Both children had already had two years as boarders and we all wanted nothing more than for them to live at home again.

The final straw was when the school told us that our daughter was only capable of doing two GCSEs, Art and English, and that our son also had problems.

We are so glad we left the UK and the awful system there. Both offspring have degrees as well as being fluent in Spanish and French.

[/quote]

Sadly, all so familiar. I had dreadful rows concerning the school's plans to sell off the large sports field; the objection being they had to walk to the bottom of the road. Poor dears and poor staff. All of 500 yards...

So naturally, they sold it off for housing, planning all sorts of joyful and wholly pointless profligacy, whereupon the LEA nicked the lot.

As I forecast at the time, demographics showed growing unfitness and obesity and a forward rise in demand for school places. Shortly after I had walked out with a departing and acerbic "You are all fools and charlatans!" their next wondrous plan was to flog off one building (The school was a split-site): whereupon the LEA nicked all that money, too.

Now, of course, pupils are crammed 40 to a class etc.

Glad they have have achieved well. The World is now their oyster.

[alittlebitfrench]

[quote user="Hoddy"]So in the light of all this analysis what advice would you offer to today's teenagers ? This question is close to my heart I have two teenage grandchildren; one who has just completed GCSEs and one who is just choosing their subjects.[/quote]

In terms of France I would not send my kids to Uni unless they want to. I prefer them to get a trade. I would rather spend the money that I would spend on their university education in setting them up in business.

University is the biggest 'con' in life. I went to uni and my OH went to a 'Grande Ecole'. I am waiting to meet someone who is truly happy following their career from Uni.

Idun made good points earlier in this thread. In France jobs are qualification specific so Uni degrees tend to be 'hit and miss'. That is why one of the growth industries in France is 'formation'. So you go to uni and then leave uni with a degree and then spend thousands training to be something else.

France really is a bit backward when it comes education and employment.

[lindal1000]

Hoddy:

I'd advise them first to think about doing something that they enjoy or something that inspires them or that they feel passionate about. They are going to be working for a very long time so it will be much more pleasant for them if they enjoy it and are interested in it. You also tend to be more motivated if it is something that interests you and usually better at it.

If they are not interested in making shed loads of money then don't push them in that direction. I taught on a two year professional masters and many of our students were people who had been pushed into business, banking, marketing etc.. done quite well but found it completely unsatisfying. After a few years they got so fed up they left and retrained.

Tell them to expect that whatever they choose, they may well end up having several different career or job paths. Tell them to always be aware of what skills they are learning and acquiring through everything they do and that they might need to be flexible.

University or continuing education is worth doing in its own right but you do need to keep in mind throughout that there will need to be a job at the end of it. My nephew is starting a psychology degree. This in itself will probably not get him a job, but what it will do is give him the foundations he needs to specialise in one of the many applied psychology professions. However, they will all require additional post graduation training..as do most professions.. architecture, speech and language therapy, educational psychologist, criminologist are all specialised post graduate qualifications with a minimum of 5 years of study..clinical psychology now requires a doctoral degree.

On a personal level, I knew what career I wanted from the age of 15 (I was lucky as it was a true vocation), I studied three years for it (it was a diploma), I worked in Canada and the UK, I studied part time for a degree (in my own time), and then I studied part time for a doctorate (in my own time), which I only finished when I was 35. I have never had one day of unemployment in my life and am still able to continue working, in France , on a part time basis to suit myself, and could probably work full time if I needed to.

[mint]

But, ALBF and id, a degree in the UK has, AFAIK, NEVER equipped anyone to do anything unless they are skills related, eg, a nursing or teaching degree.

A degree is meant to set you up to do other things, learn to think, argue your corner, sort out the grain (as it were) from the the rest, relate to people, be articulate and literate and at least, I suppose SOUND as though you know what you are talking about.

There are many degrees, and I can think of architecture, accountancy, design, nursing where your degree is remote from your field of work.  So, after the degree, you still need to gain practical experience before you can go into a "proper" job and be able to be a safe and knowledgeable practitioner of whatever it is that you have studied to do!

 

[idun]

And useless formations are a big industry in the UK too. There are good ones, but far too many rubbish ones too.

[Gluestick]

[quote user="mint"]But, ALBF and id, a degree in the UK has, AFAIK, NEVER equipped anyone to do anything unless they are skills related, eg, a nursing or teaching degree.

A degree is meant to set you up to do other things, learn to think, argue your corner, sort out the grain (as it were) from the the rest, relate to people, be articulate and literate and at least, I suppose SOUND as though you know what you are talking about.

There are many degrees, and I can think of architecture, accountancy, design, nursing where your degree is remote from your field of work.  So, after the degree, you still need to gain practical experience before you can go into a "proper" job and be able to be a safe and knowledgeable practitioner of whatever it is that you have studied to do!

 

[/quote]

ALL degrees, Mint, are "remote from work". All a degree does is hopefully, provide the student grad with the ability to apply the owner of logical deduction; hopefully, in a way that is aligned to the work tasks involved.

Unfortunately, in certain knowledge-specific areas specialism and focus are equally and perhaps more essential: for example (Clumsy perhaps yet apt) a skilled master butcher knows how, where and why to slice up a carcass. However a good surgeon (And today this is more specialised than ever before) has knowledge of bio-chemistry, and micro and macro biology too, as well as pharmacology etc.

We had a sign hanging in the office in London: "Quick! Ask the graduate to do it, before they forget how to do everything!"

A degree, Masters, or even Doctorate are precursors: thereafter they must learn the nuances and idiosyncrasies of specific occupations.

This is why so many seek to remain in the sheltered, secluded groves of academe and avoid the real World outside.

I researched and wrote a research paper in the early 1990s, which evaluated and considered the UK Venture Capital; and the frightening number of leading University discoveries and inventions and process concepts, had been hoovered up and licensed by Japan, Korea, The USA. Part of the research meant visiting the Patent Office in London. Which was infested by little Korean and Japanese guys...

In the USA, however, Stanford, CalTech, MIT, GIT et al, self-manage in a majority of cases and assist their grads and post-grads to actualise and commercialise their brain waves. Which has spawned many multiple billionaires, who then endow their alma mata: quid pro quo.