Those who are allowed to vote

[Judith]

"The problem of ex-pat voting rights (and I do accept that there is

something of a problem) has been looked at around the world. I know of

no country that does not use nationality as the basis for being part of

the plebiscite. The UK it seems alone deems this a right that can

expire. One would hope quid pro quo they would deem their right to tax

such people would apply equally - of course it does not."

Exactly, and better stated than I did, thanks Andy.

Add to the melting pot that with free movement of people there is (was ??) no need to change nationality and that's yet another spanner in the works.

And changing nationality would not help "real" expats, who do intend to return to the mother country once work or whatever called them "abroad" stops.  And who knows when that need might occur; this year I know already of at least 2 people who have had to return to the UK for differing but very valid reasons, when it was, in fact, the last thing they intended to do when they came to live here.

So simple solutions do not always give the correct, or even, dare I say it, just solution.

[Debra]

It's not just the UK that has restrictions on expat voting - though many of the other countries that have it have previous connections to the UK.  See the table on page 6 of this document.

[NormanH]

I would add two points.

My pension is paid from the UK and I pay tax there so even if I don't live there I have an interest in its welfare.

When I moved to France both places were in the EU, and I considered myself more European than simply British or French.

Simply living in a different part of Europe doesn't prevent me from from caring about what happens in the part in which I was born.

It is only a narrow nationalist view that would suggest that.

[Debra]

I rarely visit the UK but like many of us, still have assets there - property, shares, pension funds, future state pension - as well as family and one of my sons is returning there to join the British Army soon.  I still pay taxes there so the 'no taxation without representation' bit is relevant but apart from that, decisions by the UK government will affect my current and future situation as well as that of my family.

I have nightmares about how my son may be affected by the posturing going on by the current government. His dad finished basic training in the army and was sent straight to the Falklands war which many perceive to have been allowed to happen to boost Thatcher's popularity at the time.  I can imagine May doing something similar.   If Corbyn got in I wouldn't feel so worried that my son could be sent off to war on a whim or a desire to suck up to the US.

I really can't understand why anyone would think it's ok for us not to be able to vote.  The standard reasoning seems to be 'it doesn't affect you because you don't live here' or 'why should you care' or 'expats don't even pay tax here anymore' when clearly all those statements are off the mark for many of us.   Look at the amazing support that French expats get abroad.  Vote for life, dedicated representatives and polling booths arranged for them in their country of residence.

[EuroTrash]

"My pension is paid from the UK and I pay tax there so even if I don't live there I have an interest in its welfare."

Frankly I would have thought that a person who pays tax in a country but doesn't live there and doesn't get any benefit from the tax he pays, would chiefly be interested in keeping taxes as low as possible.

[idun]

We voted for our first twenty years in France.

That we eventually lost it was no shock and we accepted it. And then they reduced it to 15 years.

There will be french people who have returned to France and get UK pensions.......  it is just how it is.......... and I realise that NH feels strongly about this, but I do not.

I suppose if people feel so strongly they should take on french nationality and at least be able to vote in french elections.

albf, have you really been in France for more than 15 years, and did you vote in UK elections during those first fifteen years????

[andyh4]

Idun wrote:

I suppose if people feel so strongly they should take on french nationality and at least be able to vote in french elections.

Which of course pre-supposes that those people would be eligible to take French nationality.

I have lost my voting rights but have been French resident for less than 5 years. There will be around the world thousands of people like me who for work reasons are working outside of the UK (or are married to such a person) but who move around and never meet any local requirements to enable them to take on foreign nationality - not that I image they would want to. In the end they remain British and are just working somewhere else.

[idun]

Fair comment, but I still cannot get riled about it.

There are the rules and if it had got me down, I would have moved back to England.

I can get fiery about much in life but not this, and we had a good innings with it.

[lindal1000]

I think for me the issue is that everyone should have the right to vote somewhere. It's what Emily Pankhurst and her colleagues starved themselves for, endured torture and chained themselves to railings for, so that I could vote. It is a responsibility that I take very seriously so to be denied it does rile me. (I still have a few years left to fall foul of the 15 year rule).

Andy is correct that not everyone who wants French citizenship can get it, even if they may have lived here for years. If their centre of interest is still considered to be the UK, because that is where their income comes from, then they will not qualify, even if they have been happily and legally living in France for years.

Of course there are plenty of countries that do not agree with universal human suffrage, but I sort of hoped that the UK was not one of those. And many cannot just move back.. if work takes you to somewhere like France it is a big decision to quit your job, uproot your family etc when you have moved legally to another country.

To give you the other side...My BIL works for a company that has bases all over the world. He was offered a promotion but it involved moving to Singapore for five years. He decided to decline due to family commitments in the UK. He is now first on the list to be made redundant and at 55 there isn't much chance of another job with the same money. Yes we have choices but sometimes they are not as easy as we think.

[Judith]

lindal1000, you speak true, very easy to put prejudice into the mixture, and forget what the suffragettes fought for.  Disenfranchisement of any sort is not acceptable in this day and age.

[idun]

We could vote in France, in local elections, which affected us GREATLY and the EU...... however, I concede that that will not last for long, maybe both will not last for much longer.

Pray tell me, did any of you who are going on about suffrage, look into this before leaving the UK, get upset about it AND  campaigned for those who were living abroad?????????

I didn't, didn't think it important, and IF I had given it a thought, would have said to myself, as I AM NOW, it is a choice to live elsewhere and maybe it was something to look into before leaving one's native shores.

Incidentally, my son has a british passport, lives in France, has never lived in the UK and has limited voting rights and maybe will lose them all, certainly the EU and maybe local too if that goes out of the window,he like me, is very political, but he has never whinged about this.

IF I heard my local MP going on about this, I would frankly tell them to get onto something IMPORTANT and as a former non resident, believe that there are millions of more important things to get on with.

AND THAT IS EXACTLY HOW I FEEL ABOUT THIS!!!

NH, I realise that you are very upset about this, remember I too lost my vote.

[Debra]

Thankfully not everyone doesn't care about being disenfranchised, Idun.  Many people (including me) have campaigned about this injustice for years, which is why the government have promised to give the vote for life.  Unfortunately they keep breaking that promise.  They made a big deal about keeping the promise to hold a referendum - but neglected to keep the other promise they made in the same manifesto, to restore the vote for life to expats.

I'm in the exact position Linda describes, having lived here for years and being unable to take on French nationality if I wanted to.  Even if I could - I'd still want to retain my British citizenship and have the right to vote in Britain since my 'centre of interests' doesn't really fall in one country or the other.

[andyh4]

Idun

I respect your disinterest in being able to vote. Your choice.

I respectfully suggest that voting rights are not the highest on many agendas when they move.

Finding somewhere to live

Ensuring the employment is secure

Making sure all members of the family remain happy and secure

Ensuring you comply with local laws and requirements.

Voting rights comes down the list and will I respectfully suggest rarely apply as a high priority.

In my own case I moved to Germany on a 3 year contract, then extended by two years and then extended again by a further 3 years - why would voting rights appear on any agenda there?? But in the mean time the UK operation had contracted, my home base had closed, and so when I was offered a permanent contract in Germany, the last thing on my mind - with a wife who had settled into an ex-pat wives community, a couple of children needing financial support through university education in the UK, and an ex-wife needing her pound of flesh - was if I would be able to vote in the future.

This does not in any way reduce the fact that voting rights are important. I bet that the first words of the suffragettes was not "I want the vote." It was not their first priority but was nevertheless so important that some gave their lives.

IF you don't want or need (and I note you now have a right and intend to use it) that is for you. Please do not denigrate those who do not have that right but would wish to have it.

In a civilised modern society the removal of suffrage should be seen as an attack on human rights. I think that sums up where the UK is today.

[idun]

I would be manning the barricades if there was even a hint that I could lose my right to vote, living in the UK.

Andyh4, yes, ofcourse I understand that so many things come into play when moving abroad,  it is hard, felt like a million things to think about, and not this, never gave it a thought. I had, maybe like you? having to list all our goods in french  and the list stamped at the consulate for the  douanes and that was just the start.

No idea how many who are commenting, moved after the year 2000 when the

allowance was changed from 20 to 15 years, it was in all the papers and on the news, so for

those who left the UK after that date, did you campaign then????? I am

asking very seriously.

Did any of you actually CARE about ex pats before you left the UK??????,  ( I know I didn't ) but that really is when campaigning should have been done.......... but who on here did that............?????

And as I said, it should really be the last thing on a to do list for any british government,  and none of us was forced to leave the UK.

EDIT: As I see it, a human rights infringement would be refusal to let people return to the UK, but that would not happen. Living abroad is a choice with all that is attached to it.

[andyh4]

"never gave it a thought" about sums it up Idun.

It does not excuse the disenfrachment. I bet you never gave the right to breath clean air a thought, or drink clean water, or have uncontaminated food or 101 other things..

Until some arrogant barsteward takes them away

Thank dog none of the above have yet happened in the UK.

As for the right to return. well lets see how the Brexit talks go. If mother Theresa has her way we could see 1.5m repatriates ending up on the Uk shores and personally, I hope they all end up in Maidenhead and shaft her ladyship.

[NormanH]

I still fail to understand why people think that where one lives geographically has anything to do with one's nationality.

I am British, so should be able to vote in British elections as one  of the rights and responsibilities associated with that citizenship.

[Judith]

NormanH, succinctly said, and I totally agree. 

[idun]

Well Andy, a good friend offered to send me soap and other told me not to drink the tap water!  My french neighbour could not drink the tap water when she lived in Chartres in the 1970's, no idea if that is still the case, we always could and I could buy soap!

So basics were on my agenda.

NH, before your move, you knew or could have known, that there was a limit on voting rights. Our views are literally poles apart.

As I said, there are thousands and thousands of things that need sorting in the UK, before people's life choices when choosing to move, get addressed.

And as I said, IF parliament even starts addressing this, I shall be writing to my MP and telling them to get a grip and sort out things that I really believe are important........ and I can state that I was a disenfranchised ex pat for years! If you all feel strongly about this, then so do I. And comparing to France, like EVERYTHING is good in France, well, it is not!

[Debra]

Would you prefer we compare the UK to every other country who does not disenfranchise their citizens when they move abroad?

A few countries have time limits on expats' voting rights - mostly those who were previously connected to the UK.

[richard51]

Just to put another slant on this, could I add that although I have a vote, the constituency in which I live is a very "safe" seat. My vote is therefore a total waste of time.

Proportional representation would be better, but turkeys voting for christmas is very unlikely.