Physically sick

[Punch]

 

I've know Benjamin for 17 years from when I bought my property out here in France. Now 22, and the son of our local restauranteur, he had never been abroad before, so was excited about spending 9 months in a south of England university along with 20 other French students, to study English. He is one of the nicest and politest young men that anyone anyone could ever wish to meet. So off he went to a local disco last saturday night with both English and French friends from the university, when he was attacked  by a group of 10 thugs on the dancefloor, and had his nose broken just because he was a "frog" and was dancing with an English girl. They followed him outside to finish him off but luckily the police intervened. He will survive and only his pride was hurt but what message will he bring back to  France ?

His mother came round to see us the other day horrified and asked us was this typical of Uk nightlife?  It may sound silly but at that moment I felt somewhat embarrassed to be English .

Over this 17 years I've spent nights out in clubs all over France from Cannes to Caen, and although I have seen a fair few fracases, never the type of mob violence,and binge drinking  that seems so prevalent in major Uk towns these days, and is getting worse

Has anyone else had similar elmbarassing experiences?

 

Paul

 

 

 

[Tresco]

Please try to reassure the mother, and the young man through her, that it isn't typical at all, otherwise all discos would be empty/closed down and some other youth activity would take their place. I think he has landed in some sort of 'blokey' booze ridden disco - there are clubs all everywhere where only the unknowing newcomer would set foot, apart from the eternally potentially volatile regulars. This sounds awful, but I suspect this happens to new students everywhere, whether 'foreign' or not. It certainly happened a lot in Manchester to young newcomers to the city. I used to spend plenty of time in induction week, talking with, and providing literature for new students about the dangers of not knowing where they were going, while trying not to scare the wits out of them. 

Hopefully Benjamin will get over this truly appalling incident, and in the meantime he may learn a little about the area and clubs that are not booze pits, as these are usually the places where violence erupts.  In my experience the best alternative (for complete lack of violence) is mixed straight/gay clubs, if he can handle that, and depending on his musical taste, as they will rarely be 'rock' music clubs.

I'm afraid I don't know the south East at all now, but perhaps there are some forum members who know where their children, (or grandchildren) go, and post these, or other information/details which may help.

[Stuart]

Tresco

Sorry to disappoint your memories of the South-East but what happened to young Benjamin is sadly only too common nowadays.  It really has become unwise to venture into many town centres after dark, unless you are inside a vehicle. 

There is so much booze-fuelled mindless violence going on out there that I am sad to say Benjamin's experience is fairly mild by comparison and it would be unlikely to even make the inside pages of a local paper.

We had a case close to us where a middle aged man was waiting for a bus after the pubs closed and he was picked on by a group of young lads because he wouldn't give them a cigarette.  He was beaten so badly that he now has brain damage and will spend the rest of his life needing assistance with everything - even the simple things like washing and getting dressed.  He had a normal life one minute and it was snatched away from him by an unbelievable few minutes of sheer savagery.  Guess what - they showed CCTV photos of the gang in the local paper but none of them were ever turned in!  And we still try to pretend we live in a civilised society!

I still feel sick to my stomach just thinking about it.

Stuart

[Russethouse]

I live in Reading, in the town centre one street has nearly all the pubs / clubs that would attract young people in the evening.(by design) That street is equipped with surveillance cameras and there are always policemen about so any problems that occur are dealt with promptly (weekends mainly) - no doubt there will be plenty of incident tonight ( Sat before Christmas )but to be fair, people come from miles around at the weekends so its not all local youth.

As Tresco says every town has a couple of places to avoid and I am never thrilled to find either of my young adults has been to the Purple Turtle, but I am always told I am 'fussing'

The young lady hadn't got any history with one of the aggressors had she ? (Not that is an excuse)

Lets hope the rest of his stay passes quietly and he found something good about the UK as well as this horrid experience.

[Iceni]

Our chiropractor in the UK went out for a New Year drink with his girlfriend and some friends. A group of lads started laughing at his accent, he just turned round to avoid a conflict and got glassed in the neck - we were told he escaped death by less than half an inch.

This is a garrison town with the normal police force and the military police but still is an everyweek occurrence - I AM NOT SUGGESTING THAT THIS WAS ARMY LINKED AT ALL just that this happened with two police forces keeping an eye on the town. If there is ever any trouble with the soldiers it gets in the papers, the rest does not and there is very little about the garrison so I can only assume it is not them.

If this happened to my neighbour I would not feel embarassed, I would be devastated. This is one reason I now live in a rural area and expect to be long gone before this madness gets out here.

As an aside I think I am right that the UK has more cameras than any other EU country - but still it is not safe to go out at night in most towns and in some areas you can add villages to that.

[Tresco]

Stuart, I'm sorry not to be clear, I wasn't talking about the south east in particular, although I know that this is where the horrible incident ocurred, I was talking about my experience (I think I used that term) in the North West. I believe my understanding, while not complete, is applicable to all areas. I have communicated with many other lecturers from other universities about this very issue.

Punch, I've been thinking a bit more about this terrible incident. Obviously I don't know how much you can say or talk about with Benjamins mother, without increasing her distress, but really the university he is attatched to must be told about what has happened, not least because his studies may (understandably) suffer for a while, so his personal tutor, if he has one should know. Many young people fail to go through the police reporting procedure, but this has to be reported.  

With regard to my earlier suggestion, about mixed gay/straight clubs, I realise it's not the most practical advice to pass on through a distraught mother, (even if you agree with me, and I know many will not, but I do know about this) - I saw your post, it struck a nerve, and I have a fair amount of experience relating to incidents like this, with regard to all students away from home for the first time.

 

[The Riff-Raff Element]

[quote]Please try to reassure the mother, and the young man through her, that it isn't typical at all, otherwise all discos would be empty/closed down and some other youth activity would take their place. I ...[/quote]

"that it isn't typical at all, otherwise all discos would be empty/closed down and some other youth activity would take their place."

Flower arranging?

Rambling?

I'm very much afraid that this type of behaviour is typical and occurs in most town centres to some extent. It has done for years, though it would seem to be getting worse, probably because people are drinking more and more. Wasn't it this week that the government of Latvia applied to the European Commission to have Salford listed as a no-go area after one of her citizens was stabbed in the head with a screwdriver after an evening out for the crime of being "foreign"?

Booze in pubs / clubs in the UK is incredibly cheap - something I didn't really notice until I moved to France. The drinking warehouses are not closed down because:

1) Their current location (generally in one particular street or district of a town) does afford some potential for control and allows the police to deploy quickly;

2) Closure would simply lead to the establishment of illegal drinking clubs or push the problem further into suburban pubs.

The police in some towns have already admitted that they more-or-less loose control of public order on Friday and Saturday nights. The city that I spent my teenaged years in during the 1980s (Norwich) is arguably better than many, but everytime I spend an evening out there now with my brother we witness some incident of random violence, not to mention copius quantities of public vommiting. I don't have a ready solution (though forcing up the price of alcohol in bars could work I suppose), but the problem is real and getting worse.

For a student wishing to avoid trouble...campus bars although not entirely trouble free these days are pretty safe and pubs in the "better" suburban neighbourhoods.

[Dick Smith]

You forget

3) Local taxes on businesses make a lot of money for local council.

Our local shopping centre is now full of bars and is a no-go area after 6pm. Crime, especially violent crime, is now endemic because of alcohol abuse. All 3 of my sons have been beaten up (not fights, beatings, in one case with an iron bar, another with a baseball bat and ammonia in the eyes). Sadly they just see it as part of life - and this is Surrey!

[Leschenauds]

Like Russethouse, we used to live in Reading and up until about 10 years ago it was a fine country town with a mix of old and new but since then, the town centre was 'redeveloped'into a pub and club filled precinct with huge, enclosed shopping malls, presumably to insulate the shoppers from the cultural desert around the central area. Dicksmith hits the nail on the head, the local council is coining it. One of the main drivers for leaving was the increasing crime (mainly petty), anti social behaviour and the tremendous traffic problems caused by the policy of trying to make the town centre competitive with the peripheral Commercial Parks.

Wild horses wouldn't drag me back there.

One of our nephews went to Reading university after we left for France, he gave up his course after just over a year and moved to Loughborough because he didn't like having to go into town, as students do, without half a dozen or so other students for support. He tells us that foreign students were particular targets for the local bully boys.

[Alane]

Dick

Unfortunately taxes on businesses do not directly make a lot of money for your local council - if they did they might be used to take action to control drinking black spots. Except in the City of London where special arrangements apply, the rates are pooled by central government and redistributed to local councils. Business rates are collected on behalf of central government by local councils and then distributed by central government according to a formula determined by them. Some might say the formula is designed to benefit councils deemed friendly to the government of the day but that would be a cynical view, wouldn't it?

Sadly this sort of behaviour isn't new although the old boundaries don't seem to apply any longer. My daughter was seriously burnt last year when a drunk threw a hot drink over her when she resisted his clumsy physical advances. It was only the quick action of the nearby catering stall holder who helped her douse herself with cold water that prevented serious and permanent scarring. This was in the centre of Cambridge. In my day this sort of thing would usually have been confined to lad on lad but a good number of my friends experienced beatings in our relatively quiet suburban town in the 70s. Indeed, I was at a party a few years ago talking to an older friend when he pointed out a large gent of relatively advanced years and said to me - "goodness, that's xxxxx. I haven't seen him for years.  I remember going to the dances at the Corn Market after the war and he'd stand on the steps and pick fights with anyone he didn't like the look of and given them a real good beating. Anyone from out of town was fair game".

It is certainly true that drink is the cause of the problem and in times gone by a publican would generally not have allowed customers to get as plastered as young people do today. This seems to be due to the lack of any form of control in the large drinking establishments that seem to be run by 18 year olds who are encouraged to sell as much drink as possible. Young people who are clearly under age are admitted providing they can show some form of fake ID. My experience in these places is that as soon as ones glass is empty a young lady appears to whip it away and take orders for the next - lingering over a slow pint is not encouraged. Perhaps if these places lost their licences if they were shown to be serving alcohol to the seriously inebriated then they would re-think their policies.

I do hope that the young Frenchman won't judge all English by the behaviour of a few louts but inevitably his view of England will be coloured by this experience.

Best Regards

Alan.

[Weedon]

As many of you have said this aggression is part of all sections of life in the UK not just in clubs in the town centres late at night. I bet most of us have experienced road rage in the UK and its not always the young that are responsible.  But I have never encountered it here, although I'm not saying it doesn't happen.

In my view if the authorities really want to stamp out this binge drinking and drug culture in the pubs and clubs they have the means to do so by withdrawing the licences of the offending premises.  Its tough but the penny would drop pretty damn quick.  Call it "Shock and Or" if you like.

weedon

[Cjb]

I would have to agree that this is all too common an occurence in England. In my experience the small market town can be the most threatening of places. The safest I ever felt was during the 10 years that I lived in London! I'd much rather travel around London at night than Paris.

I truly believe that we're kidding ourselves, if we deny that yob culture in UK town centres at weekends is not a serious concern. Admittedly, it brings in revenue, but at the same time it drives away lots of would be visitors.

In some small towns, being from 5 miles down the road can be a serious faux pas, so for anyone that comes from "Overseas" it can present serious problems.

One major cultural difference that I have noted, is the social acceptance of drunken behaviour. I'm in no way suggesting that France doesn't have its own alcohol related problems, but within French society being drunk in public remains far from acceptable, whilst pubs and bars in the UK actively encourage it through happy hours and special offers (This is also true of British bars/pubs on the Côte D'Azur).

I might get shot down for this one, but I find it hard to deny that alcohol related violence is not a major headache (literally)in the UK.

[cabman]

Sadly this juvenile violence has been around for a long time.

I remember in the 1960s, receiving a good kicking for my teenage passion for motorcycles. Mods & rockers was the popular term at the time.

I too grew up in Cambridge and one of my close friends was Indian. Asian people were rare in the UK at that time and we certainly got into a few scrapes with the local yobs.

In Oxford today, young students from the EF language school group are encouraged not to wear conspicuous EF logos on clothing or bags as they too have been attacked and sometimes robbed.

Is it getting worse? Who knows?

Seems the combination of a small brain and a lot of alcohol is the key.

[Iceni]

Is it getting worse, yes yes yes. I was bought up in the rough bit if London's East End. We went out and about at night with no worries. My family owned and ran a few pubs and there was some drunkenness but never by young people. We were too interested in being fit to drive (drink driving laws were not strong then but driving in London needed a brain and some fast reactions).

The amount of alcohol taken by young people now is horrendous and is normal. I would have been scared if one of mine had come home in the state that I have seen some young people in. The police admitted that they did not have the manpower to deal with it. John was in hospital on Jan 1st 2000 when a chap in his late 20's was admitted into the bed next to him, reason, not that he had knocked half his teeth out by falling flat on his face but that his DT's were so severe he could not stand up and had to have a drip with drugs as they were afraid he would fit. He said he always got like this when he stopped drinking for 8  hours or so. He said all his mates were the same...

Having been involved in the licensed trade for many years and brought up in a pub, what we see today never happened in the 60's and 70's in London. The violence and damage to people and property is escalating. Soon all the towns in the main areas of the UK will be no go areas at night if they are not already. One of the reasons we left.

Before we left we told the police about a fridge store where very young people were going to take drugs, they just climbed over the wall and got stoned. The drugs were mainly glue type so very nasty and a few incidents occurred. The local policeman had been removed and the nearest on duty to cover our large village was half an hour away - the town police just did not have the manpower. You can imagine what happened when there was a fight, we just went in and closed our doors and prayed. No one deserves to live like that.

The only thing I have to be scared about here is that my French is not good enough.

[Will]

What happened was pretty awful, to put it mildly, but before the discussion becomes totally centred on 'look how bad England has become' it's worth remembering that such things are a fact of life in so many countries. These incidents are common in Germany (I've seen a lot of this sort of thing in Hamburg for example), the Netherlands, even places like Belgium. About the most threatening place I've visited in comparatively recent years was Istanbul, away from the well-policed tourist areas. Even French cities are scary. Perhaps the difference is that these problems are apparent in small, rural British communities as well as large conurbations.

Drugs are a very big problem, even in rural France. The French are ashamed of such things, and tend not to discuss them openly (at least with foreigners) but a look at the local press will confirm the extent of the problem.

If it's any comfort though, Paul, I don't think the fact that he was French was relevant. It was a convenient hook on which to hang the aggression, but it could just as easily have been that he was tall, short, fat, wore specs, came from the next town, wore the wrong labels.... anything.

 

[Miki]

I have much sympathy for the French lad but there are serious alcohol and drugs related here and in a very big way.

Thursday nights in Rennes has seen a huge problem with students and locals getting drunk as well as many affected by drug abuse. There are always fights, some quite serious, causing several persons to be arrested.

The papers are reporting very graphically on all these troubles in Rennes, which has now got so bad, that the CRS riots quads are now on permanent duty for much of the week and more so on Thursday nights.

The kids around here are saying that the CRS squads are really heavy handed and there has been terrible harm done to some innocent people. Pretty typical here, the police often have no idea how to sort out any problems and the CRS can be called in for almost any disturbance that in the UK the standard bobby can sort out quite easily themselves. This, they say, is adding fuel to the fire as many of the students detest the way the CRS just bully anyone and everyone who are in the vicinity and many students claim, they are as big a problem, as some of the students that are getting drunk and making big nuisances of themselves.

 

[SaligoBay]

Yes, isn't it odd - I never saw riot police in all my years in the UK, I've seen them quite a few times in France.

The last time was in Montpellier city centre a few weeks ago, when the film Banlieue 13 came out.  The cinema let too many people into the salle, and people started breaking up the seats and generally having a riot.

Was it reported?   Even less than the headless nurses in Pau. 

[Alcazar]

No, it's not a new problem, but yes, it is getting worse, in the UK at least.

My wife and I stopped going into our town centre for drinks about 15-20 years ago, as even then, it was possible to be involved in something you wanted nowt to do with, simply by being in the wrong place at the wrong time.  After witnessing a bloke I knew being abused, threatened etc by a gang of youths, I said, "no more", and we haven't been back.

Mostly, it's the younger generation, in drink, unable to hold it, in a gang, and with no controls applied. How many times do we read about these same thugs getting into fights etc, in our local papers, and then being given warnings, conditionals etc etc, by magistrates?  £80 fines? Just another revenue earner!

A recent one near here comes to mind: the local crime prevention partnership had given the first £500 award to someone who gave info leading to the arrest of a notorious local vandal and graffiti "artist". The criminal was given...................a formal warning

The crime prevention partnership said they hoped it sent out a message to other criminals? It does.................do as you like lads, they won't do owt to you for it!

But go 5mph over the limit in a car?................I digress

Neither of my lads likes going into town at night now especially the eldest who, although PERFECTLY capable of taking care of himself in a one on one, does not hang around in crowds. The youngest at 15, WILL go if there are enough of them, but prefers to stay in his own area. WHY should either of them have to think like that?

Strangely, one of the first things that came into my mind when I read of the French lad, was why weren't the offenders arrested for racially aggravated violence?

I've just been reading an article on the internet by a Welshman. He pointed out that he's SICK of being racially abused, called "sheep sh*gger" etc by people, but can he get ANYONE to take it seriously? Can he ducks!

He went on to say that certain groups, eg: ginger hair, fat people, those who wear glasses, the Welsh Irish and Scots (at least in England), were STILL fair game for abuse and discrimination, but woe betide anyone abusing an Asian, a Black person, a Chinese person or someone with a disability!

Double standards? I think so!

Alcazar 

[SaligoBay]

So what's the solution to it all?

Obviously the UK govt is going to be criticised whatever it does.   £80 fines sound like a step in the right direction, but they're cynically dismissed as just another revenue earner!   If the riot police were out every 5 minutes, no doubt the govt would be accused of trying to run a police state.

What do you do with the troublemakers, put them all straight into prison?    The French prison system seems to work very well:

http://prisons.free.fr/

  

 

[Russethouse]

Two things come to mind, one is the popularity of the drinks known as 'shots' - they allow a very high level of alcohol intake in a very short period, and many of them are sweet, very easy to drink (not to my taste, but I liked Babycham when I was younger and I wouldn't touch it now)

The other thing is that we do have these areas in town centres dedicated at drinking etc, while the fact that they are together makes them easier to police it somehow distorts the make up of the group and possible makes incidents more probable. Heads they win, tail we lose.

My terror is knives. My son is 6ft 2in,and reasonably well built so may be not an good proposition to attack in a punch up, but a knife ? No problem!

[Val_2]

I think it was on Bravo last night, but we caught the tailend of a programme called "Boozy Britain" and it was really horrendous the way people just went out drinking, took on the police and ended up not caring a fig when they were put in the cells,usually to end up with a criminal record. Have these people no shame or morals and where under age, what are the parents thinking of?

[The Riff-Raff Element]

[quote]What happened was pretty awful, to put it mildly, but before the discussion becomes totally centred on 'look how bad England has become' it's worth remembering that such things are a fact of life in s...[/quote]

You're right, of course, Will. This could easily degenerate into a "bash UK" session rather than a sober (?) consideration of a serious problem. You're also right that there are problems in other European countries, though I've only ever really seen major problems with drink-related violence in port cities (Hamburg, Rotterdam - quite incredible level of unpleasentness - Antwerp, etc).

What cannot be disputed is that the UK tops every other country in Europe in binge drinking amongst young adults. A Datamonitor study in 2004 estimated an AVERAGE annual consumption of alcohol for women in the 18 - 24 year age group equivalent to 190 bottles of wine. Not, generally, consumed evenly over the week with meals, but in one or two sessions on Friday and Saturday nights. Men drank considerably more. Do this in an uncomfortable, crowded, noisy environment and , whoops, you've got public order problems.

Alcohol abuse is certainly a problem in the part of France that I live in. The difference is that it is generally done behind closed doors. It may lead to drink driving (an evil in itself), but it doesn't lead to people being thrown through plate glass windows. So it doesn't command the same attention.

In terms of dealing with the problem...making it more expensive to drink might help. On last evening out I had in the UK in March this year I was in a pub on a Tuesday night that was offering 5 bottles of Bacardi Breezer for £5. Funnily enough these were flying off the shelves. People of both sexes were getting through a batch of 5 in about an hour. This is the same in alcohol terms as drinking 3 pints of premium larger. In my local bar a demi of 1664 costs 2.25€, or about £3.50 a pint. Generally drinkers have a couple and go home.

At the end of the evening, a girl in the party next to ours passed out under an advertising hoarding promoting the next cut-price session on the following Thursday. After a few minutes of peaceful repose, she publicly and lavishly wet herself. I can't really imagine that happening if she'd been paying a realistic price for her drinks.

[Iceni]

"Thursday nights in Rennes has seen a huge problem with students and locals getting drunk as well as many affected by drug abuse."

A first step might be to re-label "drink" as a "drug" - together with cigarettes of course - except that alcohol is more socially acceptable to most people.

As a teenager in the 1960s in rural Essex the worst that seemed to happen at dances, when the pubs closed etc was a punch-up or at worst a bit of a kicking - but in those days there were few drugs other than drink available. Now a gun, knife, baseball bat or iron bar seems more likely.

More visible police on the streets of Britain are required - not driving around in cars or in the obligatory helicopter but successive Home Secs talk much and do little. It will cost money of course but many people (including me) are/were reluctant and even afraid to venture into a town centre late evening. Probably this fear is not justified but it exists.

You all know that Di and I live in a rural 46 where we are sheltered from many of the probs of French cities and maybe things will change.

Will - I do not dispute your comments of violent behaviour in Holland , Belgium Turkey etc and possibly even the US - but I am far more concermed with MBY. The only country that seems to have the right approach is Singapore - no spitting, chewing gum etc and if a police state means that the mostly law abiding silent majority are safe to venture forth it might be a small price to pay.

BTW - and what does the ever present CCTV achieve ?

John

p.s. in the original post on this thread I do not think "embarassing" is an appropriate word.

[Will]

Jond - interesting point about port cities, you're probably right, perhaps it reflects the sort of places I get to go to on my travels. I'd probably add popular tourist destinations to that, and believe me it's not just young British, bad as they are.

I'm not sure what the figures prove other than the fact that perhaps GB youth gets drunk more often than other European nationalities. I'm sure that making it less affordable would help a bit. Cheap offers certainly encourage more consumption though I'm not sure making drink generally dearer would cure it, having seen quite a bit of the same sort of binge drunkenness in Oslo, Bergen, Gothenburg and Helsinki (oops, ports again) in the early 1990s when you had to take out a mortgage to buy a round of drinks, even during the so-called 'happy hours'. And as for the Baltic 'booze cruises' - no, don't go there please.

Fridays and Saturdays are the worst, definitely, but it seems that for most 15-30s (slight extension of age range there) in GB, and probably other places too, going two or three days without alcohol is just unbelievably uncool, and drinking less than eight or nine pints or the equivalent in any session is just too gay... I think a lot of the problem is that getting totally out of one's head is seen as the clever thing to do. I bet the young 'lady' who dissolved into a pile of her own urine thought she had a brilliant time, and her friends thought it was a big joke too and they'll have to do it all again next Friday. If getting drunk for fun ever becomes unfashionable - but that's probably wishful thinking.

[Tourangelle]

The scenario the original poster describes is not just a alcohol thing, it is racism, and unfortunately that's universal.

Last year, my cousin, who was on a year abroad from university, had blood flicked on her by some French guy in a bar in Nantes (who was drunk, and had cut himself falling over).  He had been trying to chat her up and she didn't want to know.  He ended up screaming at her "now you've really got blood on your hands".  He had taken her for an American, and wasn't very happy about Iraq - in fact she is Canadian, not that it matters, she was naturally really upset.